Discussion: Is there a team culture problem with this group?

thinkwild

Veni Vidi Toga
Jul 29, 2003
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I can see the advantage in bringing an experienced coach. But im not sure i see the same evidence for wanting an experienced GM. And its not just the GM but the management team i would be looking at. I guess the advantage an experienced GM would have is that they have managed to learn from some failures which is good.

But you take the GM of the last Cup winning teams and put them on basement teams with different circumstances and they wont be able to do the same thing.

Its going to be hard for any coach to get buy in from the team this year i'd think. Jacques might be the perfect interim for now. Lets get through a deadline, an off season, and bring in a new coach, with a fresh new vision and chance to get buy in next year. Might be setting him up for failure by bringing him in now.
 

Mark Stones Spleen

Trouba's elbow
Jan 17, 2008
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At least with Dorion, the players feared getting traded if they didn't perform. Just look at how good Joseph was earlier in the season.
You're definitely right about this.

Players from other teams absolutely feared Dorion trading for them if they were under performing. It's usually who Pierre targeted, and he'd give up everything we had to make sure we got them.
 
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KevinRedkey

12/18/23 and beyond!
Jan 22, 2010
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Between Formenton and Norris, there's ~55 goals we expected to get, that we never really replaced. It's hard to point the blame, when this team has gone through so much crap the last 2-3 years.

Deadline moves:
- Trade Tarasenko for ~1st
- Trade Kubalik if anyone wants him (doubt it)

Off-season roster moves:
- Trade Chabot directly to or assets to aquire a goalie below
- Aquire a legit starter (Markstrom/Gibson/Binnington/Ullmark/Saros)
- Re-sign Chychrun (7.000 x 8yrs)
- Re-sign Pinto for as long as possible under 6.000
- Trade Brannstrom to the highest bidder

UFA targets:
RD - Matt Roy (6.000 x 7yrs)
2W - (Mantha/Teravainen/Toffoli/Stephenson/Tank) for no more than 5.500
3W - (Noesen/Foegele/Domi/DeBrusk) for no more than 3.000

LW - Brady - 2W - Joseph (~16.500)
C - Stutzle - Pinto - Greig (~15.000)
RW - Giroux - Batherson - 3W (~14.000)
LD - Sanderson - Chychrun - Kleven (15.900)
RD - Roy - Zub - Hamonic (11.700)
G - Binnington? - Korpisalo (10.000)
Total: 83.100 (4.600 left for 4th liners)

That's what I'd reasonably attemp anyways (skip 2W if Norris is healthy). I think Chabot needs to go, for this team to get the message that losing all the time needs to end.
 
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Tuna99

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Sep 26, 2009
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On the plus side, Staios hasn't done anything stupid in the several months he's been GM.

Haven't seen a streak like that in a while

The main difference I see between Staois and Dorion is Staois has a belief system and specific things he’s looking for to improve his team. We don’t know what those are yet but my sense is he ain’t looking to deal, he’s looking for very specific players and team culture people .

I think the fanbase has PTSD from the Melnyck/Dorion horror show.

Dorion just trade for whatever he could, without any thought to budget, fit, culture. Some felt that action was progress when I. Reality if we didn’t make the Murray, Debrincat or Duchene trade we’d be ahead. Not to
Mention the Talbot and the tons of other crappy trades Dorion made during the rebuild bringing in “good vets” who wanted out immediately
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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There isn’t a culture problem - there has been a massive goaltending problem, roster construction problem, and ridiculous asset management problem. .

Despite all the words typed here about previous management it’s still almost impossible to overstate what a worthless bunch of f***ing losers we had putting this all together.
It’s almost inconceivable to finish bottom 5 again after 7 years of brutal finishes, have literally the worst prospect pool in hockey, not a single prospect in the top 75 (nor in the 25 next honourable mentions), not have a 1st in 1 of the next 3 years.
You know, it's almost hard to tell what the situation really is with the roster and asset mgmt given the state of the goaltending

We can all post a bunch of stats and ponder what average goaltending does for our point total. Average goaltending and we're in the playoffs. I certainly believe that.

I think we lead the league in our players thinking "we lead the league in soft goals/60"

Lots of teams have LHD playing RHD. I'm sure it's not easy at the NHL level. I'm also certain it's way harder knowing any simple mistake and the puck is in the net. 32 goals against to get us to average. Add a few more on there for say 11th. That's not even "top 10".

I guess my point is that apart from assessing compete levels, if you're SS it's hard to tell what we have because the goaltending sucks so bad that you're not seeing the team under normal circumstances
 
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Tnuoc Alucard

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He got suspended for half the season for being a degenerate gambler. Good to know you sign off on that



Thought it was a buddy logging in and using his account… at least that was the speculation in the media…. But if you have a source that he is a degenerate gambler, please share.

On the plus side, Staios hasn't done anything stupid in the several months he's been GM.

Haven't seen a streak like that in a while
When You do nothing, other than reclaiming Lasi, who was drafted by the Sens, but lost on waivers….you don’t do anything brilliant or stupid….
 

Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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You know, it's almost hard to tell what the situation really is with the roster and asset mgmt given the state of the goaltending

We can all post a bunch of stats and ponder what average goaltending does for our point total. Average goaltending and we're in the playoffs. I certainly believe that.

I think we lead the league in our players thinking "we lead the league in soft goals/60"

Lots of teams have LHD playing RHD. I'm sure it's not easy at the NHL level. I'm also certain it's way harder knowing any simple mistake and the puck is in the net. 32 goals against to get us to average. Add a few more on there for say 11th. That's not even "top 10".

I guess my point is that apart from assessing compete levels, if you're SS it's hard to tell what we have because the goaltending sucks so bad that you're not seeing the team under normal circumstances

While I do agree, I think there's an additional caveat to things.

This team has been insanely easy to play against for years. Guy really don't battle or make things difficult for opponents on a consistent basis. We have so many instances where guys get nearly a free pass into our zone and set up for great shots over, and over, and over. It kills netminders. Wears them down physically and mentally. This is one of the reasons why goalies look good here at first, then fall off a cliff....only to rebound after they're traded.

Now, Korpi has some major flaws. He looks tiny in his net, and he has major trouble with high shots. So with him, I don't think he'll be one to have a big rebound after we dump him somewhere, but overall, this team definitely lets down the goalies.
 

BankStreetParade

Registered User
Jan 22, 2013
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Ottawa
We don't know for sure their guy(s) is/are currently available.
We also don't know for sure that the guy(s) they want is/are coming here. There's a lot of competition for high end coaches and I'm not sure Ottawa is top of the list for any of them.

Unless the rumours are true that they want Gruden from Toronto and no one else. In that case, I'm sure he'll be there when they come calling.
 
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HoweHullOrr

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Oct 3, 2013
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Between Formenton and Norris, there's ~55 goals we expected to get, that we never really replaced. It's hard to point the blame, when this team has gone through so much crap the last 2-3 years.

Deadline moves:
- Trade Tarasenko for ~1st
- Trade Kubalik if anyone wants him (doubt it)

Off-season roster moves:
- Trade Chabot directly to or assets to aquire a goalie below
- Aquire a legit starter (Markstrom/Gibson/Binnington/Ullmark/Saros)
- Re-sign Chychrun (7.000 x 8yrs)
- Re-sign Pinto for as long as possible under 6.000
- Trade Brannstrom to the highest bidder

UFA targets:
RD - Matt Roy (6.000 x 7yrs)
2W - (Mantha/Teravainen/Toffoli/Stephenson/Tank) for no more than 5.500
3W - (Noesen/Foegele/Domi/DeBrusk) for no more than 3.000

LW - Brady - 2W - Joseph (~16.500)
C - Stutzle - Pinto - Greig (~15.000)
RW - Giroux - Batherson - 3W (~14.000)
LD - Sanderson - Chychrun - Kleven (15.900)
RD - Roy - Zub - Hamonic (11.700)
G - Binnington? - Korpisalo (10.000)
Total: 83.100 (4.600 left for 4th liners)

That's what I'd reasonably attemp anyways (skip 2W if Norris is healthy). I think Chabot needs to go, for this team to get the message that losing all the time needs to end.
20 player roster?
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
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Nobody is being held accountable.

You've got a team full of players signed long term.
You've got a GM who seems terrified to make any moves (literally hasn't made a single move).
You've got a coach who isn't going to be around next year.
There's no chance of making the playoffs.

Under these circumstances, there's no motivating factor. The players don't fear getting traded, their contracts are secure, and the coach won't be around next year.

At least with Dorion, the players feared getting traded if they didn't perform. Just look at how good Joseph was earlier in the season.
LOL - the irony. How did the Senators find themselves in this position where they potentially needed to jettison a player in order to fit in a good, young player? What are the circumstances that led to this situation, and who was responsible for those circumstances?
 
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jbeck5

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
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Between Formenton and Norris, there's ~55 goals we expected to get, that we never really replaced. It's hard to point the blame, when this team has gone through so much crap the last 2-3 years.

Deadline moves:
- Trade Tarasenko for ~1st
- Trade Kubalik if anyone wants him (doubt it)

Off-season roster moves:
- Trade Chabot directly to or assets to aquire a goalie below
- Aquire a legit starter (Markstrom/Gibson/Binnington/Ullmark/Saros)
- Re-sign Chychrun (7.000 x 8yrs)
- Re-sign Pinto for as long as possible under 6.000
- Trade Brannstrom to the highest bidder

UFA targets:
RD - Matt Roy (6.000 x 7yrs)
2W - (Mantha/Teravainen/Toffoli/Stephenson/Tank) for no more than 5.500
3W - (Noesen/Foegele/Domi/DeBrusk) for no more than 3.000

LW - Brady - 2W - Joseph (~16.500)
C - Stutzle - Pinto - Greig (~15.000)
RW - Giroux - Batherson - 3W (~14.000)
LD - Sanderson - Chychrun - Kleven (15.900)
RD - Roy - Zub - Hamonic (11.700)
G - Binnington? - Korpisalo (10.000)
Total: 83.100 (4.600 left for 4th liners)

That's what I'd reasonably attemp anyways (skip 2W if Norris is healthy). I think Chabot needs to go, for this team to get the message that losing all the time needs to end.

A big problem is we traded away all our depth for guys like debrincat and chychrun etc.

Back in the day in the span of 2-3 years we lost:

40-45 goal Yashin
20-35 goal McEachern
35-50 point dackell
40 point selke competing arvedson
55 point dackell

Not to mention a bunch of decent defenseman like

35-35 point York
25-35 point kravchuk
25-35 point pace Salo

And yet we just kept getting better and had no problems replacing them.


Whereas dorion has gotten us to have about the worst prospect pool so we can't replace any of the players we lose.

I think Greig was the last top 2 line player that we develop. I see ostapchuk more as a 3rd liner and not much else behind him.
 
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Agent Zuuuub

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
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Realistically to change the culture and make a big enough splash you have to disrupt the core and how cozy they are. so that means trading one of

Chabot = no one wants him
Norris = no one wants him
Brady = is the captain
Batherson = best contract of them

so realistically nothing is gonna happen.
 

LiseL

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The Sens traded DeMelo away for a 3rd round pick. We had a good debate about that at the time. The folks who argued that DeMelo would be much harder to replace than people thought were correct.

He might be the most cost effective player for the Sens to get this summer. Kind of a perfect fit for what the team needs on the right side. You can also hope that there is a GM out there foolish enough to trade a top 4 RD for a 3rd rounder.



I watch a lot of teams play and there is zero question that this Sens team is solidly in the top half in terms of talent.

They're one of the top 5v5 offenses in the league (3rd in goals per minute 5v5). They make skill plays that other clubs can't.



I think that's pretty much it. They think winning involves a highlight reel. They're not wiling to tolerate the boredom of consistency.

This team works and quits, works and quits. Brady Tkachuk provides highlight reel leadership and then flubs off.

My main club is the Jackets and I'm thankful that Boone Jenner does the same thing every game. He's not a great player but he's providing the right lesson for the next generation. Making the right play consistently is really hard.

The Jets are a team that has really made that switch in the last year. Before that they had a couple years where they seemed indifferent to defense, particularly Scheifele. This year they've really bought in and do the same thing every game now. Hopefully Dillon DeMelo can come back to Ottawa and spread some of what they've learned.
Chabot hasn't been the same since DeMelo left. Wonder if he'll return to form if we get DeMelo back?
 
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LiseL

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He got suspended for half the season for being a degenerate gambler. Good to know you sign off on that
He got suspended for violating the terms and conditions of the account by allowing third party access to his account (letting someone else use his account). There was no gambling on NHL games involved. If there had been, he would've been suspended longer, possibly even banned a la Pete Rose.
 
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Alex1234

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Oct 14, 2014
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"It's not strange. It feels awful, to be honest,” Letang said Tuesday. “It was our job from the beginning of the year to put ourselves in a good spot and we didn't. Now we're here today and we have to deal with this.”


Champions blame themselves
Losers blame others (fans)
 

PlayOn

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Jun 22, 2010
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"It's not strange. It feels awful, to be honest,” Letang said Tuesday. “It was our job from the beginning of the year to put ourselves in a good spot and we didn't. Now we're here today and we have to deal with this.”


Champions blame themselves
Losers blame others (fans)
Letang is 36 years old, Brady is 24. What is the point of endlessly critiquing Brady for a comment made in the heat of the moment? Just let the guy grow, he does far more good for us than bad.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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"It's not strange. It feels awful, to be honest,” Letang said Tuesday. “It was our job from the beginning of the year to put ourselves in a good spot and we didn't. Now we're here today and we have to deal with this.”


Champions blame themselves
Losers blame others (fans)
They don't really have anything to pin the blame on other than themselves, they have been one of the healthier teams, have an experienced head coach, goaltending has been really good, Pk is great, truthfully they're a better team than their record, the PP just hasn't gotten it done which is pretty wild given the available talent.

Pens are a prime example of the teams star players not getting it done with nobody to blame but themselves, team construction is fine albeit old, role players are doing their part, it's on the stars for not scoring with the man advantage
 

Alex1234

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Letang is 36 years old, Brady is 24. What is the point of endlessly critiquing Brady for a comment made in the heat of the moment? Just let the guy grow, he does far more good for us than bad.
I don't endlessly critiquit(te) Brady...
It's probably my first comment criticizing him
 

PlayOn

Registered User
Jun 22, 2010
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I don't endlessly critiquit(te) Brady...
It's probably my first comment criticizing him
Fair enough, sorry! I wasn’t directing it at you specifically but probably should’ve phrased it differently.
 

Tuna99

Registered User
Sep 26, 2009
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Letang is 36 years old, Brady is 24. What is the point of endlessly critiquing Brady for a comment made in the heat of the moment? Just let the guy grow, he does far more good for us than bad.
Letang had a Cup at 24 and was a massive part of it
 

Yak

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Jun 30, 2009
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I am making my return today to the HF boards. I had to take a leave of absence due to work related issues. They have not been solved but I decided I could no longer watch and suffer in silence.

I had hoped our team would had a better year this year but it was a typical year and usual story. It's a good thing that we got rid of that Dorion and the team cheerleader DJ Smith.


You know I was thinking about this and It crossed my mind what's wrong with this team. We have a lot of the pieces and we should be competing.

Bringing JM back was a smart move but obviously he can't work miracles overnight.

We do have a better defense and for the most part we have three good lines. However, it seems like only two lines are ever healthy.

So I asked myself just like everyone else is asking. Is this a team culture thing. I started to consider that this could be the issue. It's a logical and rational answer to the problems. However, after really thinking about it, I think it's just the easiest scapegoat for this team.

I think if there's one thing we've seen is that this team plays for each other and that's a positive culture. I think everyone supports each other in a really positive fashion in. Everyone wants the best from each other and somewhat pushes each other to be better. They seem to lift each other up when one is down and have that next man up mentality. I am not going to play into the culture card. These guys are way too young and their attitudes are just being shaped.


I must say I am tired of making excuses for them but I am going to make some excuses but I also am going to make some suggestions to fix those excuses.

We had master motivator and professional cheerleader. DJ Smith, their pee-wee hockey coach who was definitely coaching above his skill set and while motivating people works when you need to get over hump. It's not a long-term solution to guys who are new to the league and need to be developed in many different areas of their professional career. We all knew he was the wrong guy to get this team to the next level. So nobody's debating that. I think where some of the problem was is they lost their favorite teacher and some guys may have pouted and some guys actually were probably upset that we ended up back in the same position of another season killed before it ever got started. The next coach we bring in needs to be an experienced coach that has the right characteristics to take this team to the next level and is an ex and nose and a teacher guy. We need the next JM or the next Brian Murray or whoever to take this to and get them into the playoffs and competing every year for the cup.

P.D. oh my god, we waited for this guy to get fired for so long. Then he starts making some desperate moves at the end. That kind of give you some hope because he was trying a couple moves worked out and the rest did it. He knew the writing was on the wall and he did everything he could do to save his behind. The scary part is is that if you wasn't fired the way he had constructed this roster, he did not have much left to work with or assets. Good riddance.

I don't know if Staios Is the answer either as he is a rookie GM and he is going to get fleeced then taught lessons of the hard way. We don't know if he has great hockey sense or not or whatever he seems to be sharper than Dorion was but only time will tell. I think however he's got to pick either GM or President not both. That's just my two cents on it.

I actually would have preferred to see him be a little busier on trade deadline day getting rid of some of the dead weight, but at the end of the day how many people are lining up for one of the last place teams misfits. I can't imagine there were many calls for our fourth liners.


Now comes the time when nobody's got anything left to lose and everyone in the league knows we are the bottom feeders. So the win's should start piling up now when they're meaningless and screw our draft position. I would like to see this change. Actually. There's none of this playing for next year junk that we go through every year. This year is dead and buried. We're just going through the emotions of finishing the season off. If we finish the season without a loss in regulation, it won't mean a thing next year. Not a single thing. What will mean a lot is if we draft higher. How about a nice top draft pick? We can either use that too. Turn into a good player or trade for a useful peace on this roster.

So I don't believe there is a culture problem here. But what there was was a culture of wrong decisions and mismanagement by the GM and the coach. Bringing in the wrong players and making cheap moves at every turn. We filled this organization with whatever we could nickel and dime and put together on a shoestring budget and cried about mediocrity because we had a poor owner. That whole mentality has ran through the entire organization from top to bottom and I'm sure players know it as well too. So yes, there is maybe a bit of a culture issue, but the culture of losing and making excuses is probably the culture issue we are having versus the players. Although, if you want to ask if there's a culture problem among the players, well, they're actually is a culture problem among the players that we have a bunch of guys who probably should not be playing in the NHL. If they belong in the NHL and they're so great, why are we at the bottom of the standings? We have a lot of driftwood on this team or dead weight or whatever you want to call it or players who are just not a good match for us.

We also have brought in some players who were bad fits and bad signings. We know who they are or at least I think I do and we got a whole summer to call them out and make changes. We've been running with the same group of these players for too long and getting the same result. We're not going into a new rebuild or a retooling. We're getting rid of the dead weight. These are guys who are not part of the core and we're not part of the long-term plan and are replaceable. That being said, they're also is some players on this team that were looked as part of the solution but are no longer that and they need to be sent packing as well too.

This roster is full of holes. It's been constructed by a madman. We have a core of good pieces and we do not have the proper supporting cast to help them excel. We basically have too many of the same type of player. Now is the time to start bringing in specific type of players and character players and certain skilled players that we need. It's very evident now of what we're lacking where before we were lacking everything. We need a real fourth line. We need more grit. We need veteran help. We need a real third pairing defense. We have what feels like a good defense but there is a lack of stay-at-home defense first mentality and players willing to play physical. We also are asking players to play physical that is not in their DNA. Guy's are trying to play bigger than their size and while they're doing their best trying to do it, it is not who they are. We keep trying to make do with what we have and what we need to be doing is get what we actually need. It's hard to fill out a roster with all of your needs exactly, but that's where we're at right now. That's where we're failing. It is not going to happen overnight. People are not going to trade for these key pieces because we're getting to the point where these are the type of players that every team need. We're going to have to give up some good players to get some better players. It's a good thing that we have some really good assets and maybe in abundance of a certain type of player that we probably could use as an asset to fill another hole.

I am not even going to comment on the goaltending situation at all. Save that rank for a whole other day.

We survived
Our Harold Ballard of the Senators and the crazy GM and at the end of the day we still have a really good core. All is not lost and the sky is not falling. We can't right the wrongs overnight. All I know is we are not going to have to wait as long as the Maple leaf's to win a Stanley Cup.

Sorry for the super long post but I have not had a chance to express my feelings about the Senators to anybody here in L.A.
 

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