TSN: Dion almost signed? Mod warning post #277

[Al14]

He doesn't have the drive? Are you freaking kidding me?! So what, do you think he just casually shuts-down top lines?

Why are some fans so blind to his lazy ass play sometimes.

I just don't get it how no one sees his poor defensive coverage (at times), his lack of effort along the boards (at times), his slow response to opposing players going wide on him (at times), his lazy and slow puck pursuit (at times).

I also don't like his lack of ability to keep his slap shot from the blue line, low, and on net! In my opinion, he also carries the puck up the ice too slow at times.

I like Phaneuf, but not as a true #1 D. He'd be a great #2 D IMHO.

 

[Jack Bauer]

David freaking Clarkson has a NMC, you don't think that Phaneuf will get one when he can use that as a comparable?

He has limited protection. Not a blanket NMC as I understand it.

If Dion is holding out for that then we should move him to the highest bidder and wait for July 1 to negotiate with him like everyone else.

IMO if you want to re-sign here and demand an NMC then we should prove a point to everyone and move you.

Kessel didn't get one and he's a much better comparable then Clarkson is.

 

[Banic]

Why are some fans so blind to his lazy ass play sometimes.

I just don't get it how no one sees his poor defensive coverage (at times), his lack of effort along the boards (at times), his slow response to opposing players going wide on him (at times), his lazy and slow puck pursuit (at times).

I also don't like his lack of ability to keep his slap shot from the blue line, low, and on net! In my opinion, he also carries the puck up the ice too slow at times.

I like Phaneuf, but not as a true #1 D. He'd be a great #2 D IMHO.

Phaneuf has had some games of utter brilliance and that's what drives me nuts. This season has been his best yet as a Leaf and yet he still goes back to the boneheaded plays sometimes. Is it hockey IQ? I have no idea. When the team plays well so does he it seems and conversely when they play poorly. Maybe he gets frustrated which effects his game who knows.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Why are some fans so blind to his lazy ass play sometimes.

I just don't get it how no one sees his poor defensive coverage (at times), his lack of effort along the boards (at times), his slow response to opposing players going wide on him (at times), his lazy and slow puck pursuit (at times).

I also don't like his lack of ability to keep his slap shot from the blue line, low, and on net! In my opinion, he also carries the puck up the ice too slow at times.

I like Phaneuf, but not as a true #1 D. He'd be a great #2 D IMHO.

That's the stance I see almost every sensible fan take with Phaneuf.

He's a #2 playing a #1 role like Bozak up front. But everyone ***** on both because they're not a #1 D or C.

Give Dion one of the dozen or so defencemen able to play half the game at his level and you'll see us be a consistant top 5 team in this league with our current goaltending. But if you trade him on the basis of spending the money elsewhere you inevitably will be wishing you kept what you had and overpaid Dion a little rather then overpaying a Franson to be a #1 when he's not even a consistant #3.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Phaneuf has had some games of utter brilliance and that's what drives me nuts. This season has been his best yet as a Leaf and yet he still goes back to the boneheaded plays sometimes. Is it hockey IQ? I have no idea. When the team plays well so does he it seems and conversely when they play poorly. Maybe he gets frustrated which effects his game who knows.

I think the mental lapse comes from how heavily he is leaned upon.

Say what you will about Phaneuf but if ANY of the other 5 have an off night he's the one we expect more from.

If we had the depth to keep him to 17-21 minutes I think you'd see a much more consistant and physical force then the player we see getting 24+ minutes against everyone elses top players.

 

[Banic]

I think the mental lapse comes from how heavily he is leaned upon.

Say what you will about Phaneuf but if ANY of the other 5 have an off night he's the one we expect more from.

If we had the depth to keep him to 17-21 minutes I think you'd see a much more consistant and physical force then the player we see getting 24+ minutes against everyone elses top players.

I agree with that. But a #1 doesn't play 17-21 minutes which makes him a 2 or 3. An NHL dman should be able to play at least a third of the game consistently to be deemed in the top 4 so I would hope for more like 20-24 minutes of quality ice time. Others, see Gardiner, have been given a lot more ice time this year.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I agree with that. But a #1 doesn't play 17-21 minutes which makes him a 2 or 3. An NHL dman should be able to play at least a third of the game consistently to be deemed in the top 4 so I would hope for more like 20-24 minutes of quality ice time. Others, see Gardiner, have been given a lot more ice time this year.

I agree and that's why a part of me believes the 'downside' of his career might be better then his peak years.

A #3/4 experienced guy like Phaneuf at 33 or 34 could be a rock on a Cup contender.

 

[Canada4Gold]

He has limited protection. Not a blanket NMC as I understand it.

If Dion is holding out for that then we should move him to the highest bidder and wait for July 1 to negotiate with him like everyone else.

IMO if you want to re-sign here and demand an NMC then we should prove a point to everyone and move you.

Kessel didn't get one and he's a much better comparable then Clarkson is.

what?

I don't get this logic, If Phaneuf wants a NMC then we should get rid of him and get something for him while we still can?

If Phaneuf wants a NMC that means he wants to stay here for a long time, that's not something immediately make a deal breaker and ship out of town.

A NMC could hamper the team furthur down the road that's true but it's not something you downright dismiss. If he wants a NMC then you tell him that's he's going to have to take less money to get it so in giving him the NMC we take on some risk but give away some risk with the lower caphit. There has to be some give and take, if we're giving then we're taking too, negotiation 101.

But by all means lets ship Phanuef out of town to someone else who will pay a 1st+prospect, have that prospect turn into probably nothing, the 1st might be a 3rd liner in 6 years, and we can have Gunnarson/Gardiner be our top pairing for the next year, that sounds like fun

Or no, instead lets look to acquire or sign someone else. Lets see I wonder what team X will want for their top pairing D man signed to a contract with a Phaneuf like cap hit with a NMC. I bet it's a hell of a lot more than the 1st+prospect we just traded Phaneuf for.

So maybe we just sign someone to replace Phanuef instead. Nobody on the market, oh well lets just overpay Girardi and give him a MNC to boot, that'll teach Phaneuf.

Reach into your wallet and pay Phaneuf what he's worth, we're a much better team with him than we will be without him and looking for a replacement for him that will cost more in assets than he will return or more cap space than he's asking for.

 

[DD03]

All these people that are bashing Phaneuf are asking for defensemen that are better then him.

There hasn't been a defenseman in the league that has played tougher minutes then Dion. And so far this year, there's been maybe 5 guys who've out-played him around the league defensively.

How the hell do you expect Nonis to get a better defenseman then Phaneuf?

 

[wulfio*]

All these people that are bashing Phaneuf are asking for defensemen that are better then him.

There hasn't been a defenseman in the league that has played tougher minutes then Dion. And so far this year, there's been maybe 5 guys who've out-played him around the league defensively.

How the hell do you expect Nonis to get a better defenseman then Phaneuf?

I don't think people are looking for someone better than him. Just to re allocate the cap dollars we have, and would invest in phaneuf to improve the team by committee.

If we're paying Dion $7+ mill to be our best D man, I don't like our future. If we're paying him 4.5-5 max, then I like our future.

I'm not saying Phaneuf couldn't easily demand the 7 mill. He's just not worth that much money on a cup contender my opinion. He can go to the panthers or oilers and make that money no problem. But he will never make that money on the hawks or bruins.

 

[Leafs87]

Very fair deal. Not a steal not an overpayment IMO

 

[WildcatMapleLeafs28]

I'm okay with this. He's our best defenseman and there's no way we could let him walk. He's having a very solid season.

 

[hockeystick89]

I don't think people are looking for someone better than him. Just to re allocate the cap dollars we have, and would invest in phaneuf to improve the team by committee.

If we're paying Dion $7+ mill to be our best D man, I don't like our future. If we're paying him 4.5-5 max, then I like our future.

I'm not saying Phaneuf couldn't easily demand the 7 mill. He's just not worth that much money on a cup contender my opinion. He can go to the panthers or oilers and make that money no problem. But he will never make that money on the hawks or bruins.

Lots of people have extremely short or selective memories around here, it seems. There was once a time when the fanbase on this website was divided on players such as Kaberle, Stajan, Ponikarovsky, etc. It feels like A LOT of people on here are more concerned with how fans of other teams perceive our players than the actual results they produce on the ice. Not saying Phaneuf is a bad player, but he is not the first good player on a bad Leafs team(In this case, on a bad blueline) to be put on a pedestal around here.

Sign the guy, but I don't see how a team that has almost half of its cap tied up to Lupul, Kessel, Clarkson, and Phaneuf is going to win a Stanley Cup.

 

[wulfio*]

Lots of people have extremely short or selective memories around here, it seems. There was once a time when the fanbase on this website was divided on players such as Kaberle, Stajan, Ponikarovsky, etc. It feels like A LOT of people on here are more concerned with how fans of other teams perceive our players than the actual results they produce on the ice. Not saying Phaneuf is a bad player, but he is not the first good player on a bad Leafs team(In this case, on a bad blueline) to be put on a pedestal around here.

Sign the guy, but I don't see how a team that has almost half of its cap tied up to Lupul, Kessel, Clarkson, and Phaneuf is going to win a Stanley Cup.

Yup. That comes with a HF community that is generally not knowledgeable about hockey. And now its worse with all the stats junkies talking about how he plays the toughest minutes in the league. Well if he's logging the toughest minutes on a bad team that isn't winning, that is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Teams are as good as their best players, and if our best players aren't getting it done, maybe it's time to get a dose of reality.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Yup. That comes with a HF community that is generally not knowledgeable about hockey. And now its worse with all the stats junkies talking about how he plays the toughest minutes in the league. Well if he's logging the toughest minutes on a bad team that isn't winning, that is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Teams are as good as their best players, and if our best players aren't getting it done, maybe it's time to get a dose of reality.

the ringing endorsement is that he's 21st in the league for defencemen in 5 v 5 GA On/60 minutes, and all the 20 above him don't play anywhere near as tough minutes as he does.

That means while he's on the ice against the Crosby's, Ovi's, Zetterberg's, Stamkos' of the league he gives up less goals than everyone in the league except 20 defencemen all of which are playing against the Ashton's, Clutterbuck's, Moen's, Bonino's of the league.

All these supreme Norris caliber defencemen like Chara, Pietrangelo, Subban, Suter, Weber, Keith, etc, etc all give up more goals per game when they're on the ice, and they're all playing with more competant defence partners, most of them in more competent defence systems with more competent forwards to back them up, and they give up more goals than Phaneuf.

Then you have the stat showing him being 21st in the league in 5 v 5 +- On/60 minutes. Better than all the offensive defensmen in the league such as Karlsson, Subban, Doughty, Keith who are usually playing with better offensive threats at forward like Spezza, Ryan, Kopitar, Richards, Toews, Kane, etc, while Phaneuf is on the ice with McClement, Kulemin, Bolland, Raymond, Clarkson as Carlyle tries to shut down the other lines.

How is it Phaneuf is better defensively that all those Norris caliber dfensive defensemen while playing tougher minutes with worse teammates, and he's better +-/60 wise than all these offensive Norris caliber defencemen who are playing with better teammates against weaker competition.

So what does that tell you?

If it tells you we should pay Phaneuf just a couple hundred thousand more than New Jersey is paying Anton Volchenkov then you're not doing it right. Think about it for a few hours and come up with a new better answer

 

[Confucius]

I agree and that's why a part of me believes the 'downside' of his career might be better then his peak years.

A #3/4 experienced guy like Phaneuf at 33 or 34 could be a rock on a Cup contender.

Maybe but you certainly can't be paying your 3 / 4 guy 7 million. Especially if his offensive contribution is around 50th when compared to other Dmen.

 

[yubbers]

How is it Phaneuf is better defensively that all those Norris caliber dfensive defensemen while playing tougher minutes with worse teammates, and he's better +-/60 wise than all these offensive Norris caliber defencemen who are playing with better teammates against weaker competition.

So what does that tell you?

If it tells you we should pay Phaneuf just a couple hundred thousand more than New Jersey is paying Anton Volchenkov then you're not doing it right. Think about it for a few hours and come up with a new better answer

If it tells you Phaneuf is worth the same as

So based on your logic of only mentioning this season conveniently, LA should lock in Scrivens right now for 7 years with Fleury/Price money. Cause you know, his sv.% represents the toughest goalie minutes around.

Get your eyes off the SELECTIVE CHERRY PICKING stat sheet and into reality

 

[DD03]

I don't think people are looking for someone better than him. Just to re allocate the cap dollars we have, and would invest in phaneuf to improve the team by committee.

If we're paying Dion $7+ mill to be our best D man, I don't like our future. If we're paying him 4.5-5 max, then I like our future.

I'm not saying Phaneuf couldn't easily demand the 7 mill. He's just not worth that much money on a cup contender my opinion. He can go to the panthers or oilers and make that money no problem. But he will never make that money on the hawks or bruins.

Your argument makes no sense. Chicago or Boston have no need to pay him that money so of course they won't.. Both those teams have their #1 defenseman, they don't need another one.

 

[Warden of the North]

David freaking Clarkson has a NMC, you don't think that Phaneuf will get one when he can use that as a comparable?

His NMC stops him from being assigned to the AHL. He has a modified NTC which allows him to be traded under certain conditions. I dont think Nonis has ever handed out a full NTC

 

[Hotlanta]

I don't think people are looking for someone better than him. Just to re allocate the cap dollars we have, and would invest in phaneuf to improve the team by committee.

If we're paying Dion $7+ mill to be our best D man, I don't like our future. If we're paying him 4.5-5 max, then I like our future.

I'm not saying Phaneuf couldn't easily demand the 7 mill. He's just not worth that much money on a cup contender my opinion. He can go to the panthers or oilers and make that money no problem. But he will never make that money on the hawks or bruins.

If you didn't just notice the Steen, Bozak, Weiss or Clarkson signing, 7million will not be that much in the next couple years. In fact, 7million in 5 years will probably be close to an equal percentage of the cap that 4.5-5million was a couple years ago. 7million for Phaneuf will look good tomorrow and it will look even better in 5 years when that is the going rate for a #2/3 D. Contracts like Doughty's are going to look like absolute steals in 5-6 years.

 

[Warden of the North]

Why are some fans so blind to his lazy ass play sometimes.

I just don't get it how no one sees his poor defensive coverage (at times), his lack of effort along the boards (at times), his slow response to opposing players going wide on him (at times), his lazy and slow puck pursuit (at times).

I also don't like his lack of ability to keep his slap shot from the blue line, low, and on net! In my opinion, he also carries the puck up the ice too slow at times.

I like Phaneuf, but not as a true #1 D. He'd be a great #2 D IMHO.

No player plays 100% full out every game

Where were Captain Intangibles and Norris winner Duncan Keith when we wrecked the Hawks on Saturday?

 

[fsdev905]

All these supreme Norris caliber defencemen like Chara, Pietrangelo, Subban, Suter, Weber, Keith, etc, etc all give up more goals per game when they're on the ice, and they're all playing with more competant defence partners, most of them in more competent defence systems with more competent forwards to back them up, and they give up more goals than Phaneuf.

Can you provide stats on scoring chances & shots against when these D-Men are on the ice compared to Phaneuf? I'm sure that stat won't be in Phaneuf's favour.

I bet if you compare Franson, Rielly, Gunnarson's GA stats compared to those player's 2-5 d-men, the Leafs stats would be better for the most part. Phaneuf's GA stats are inflated by Bernier & Reimer's early play.

 

[Canada4Gold]

So based on your logic of only mentioning this season conveniently, LA should lock in Scrivens right now for 7 years with Fleury/Price money. Cause you know, his sv.% represents the toughest goalie minutes around.

Get your eyes off the SELECTIVE CHERRY PICKING stat sheet and into reality

If I was only gonna factor in this season he'd be worth a hell of a lot more than he's asking for, he's been basically stat wise one of the best d-men in the league.

He's not be bad in previous years, he's not been a top d-man but he's not been bad. When you take all that into account he's worth what he will be paid, and I'll be very happy the day that contract gets signed, hopefully it's very soon.

Steen wasn't worth 5.8 million before this season, his value increased. They didn't sign him based on this season alone, otherwise he'd have gotten 8 million.

Dion won't be signed for his value this year, but how he's played this year will increased what he would have potentially been signed for based on previous years and he's worth it and he'll prove it too you, and all the other 98% of leafs nation who doubt him.

I totally get those people not wanting to pay him 7.5 million or 7 million or whatever the hell the negotiation is down to now, and while I don't agree, it's a lot to pay for a long time and it's locking someone into our team for a long time, and that could be worrying for some. But for someone to say he's worth around 4.5-5 million and let him go otherwise is just wrong. He was worth more than that coming into this season and will continue to be worth more than that, quite a fair bit more than that.

 

[Confucius]

Can you provide stats on scoring chances & shots against when these D-Men are on the ice compared to Phaneuf? I'm sure that stat won't be in Phaneuf's favour.

I bet if you compare Franson, Rielly, Gunnarson's GA stats compared to those player's 2-5 d-men, the Leafs stats would be better for the most part. Phaneuf's GA stats are inflated by Bernier & Reimer's early play.

Absolutely. A better indicator would be how many shots got through to the goaltender while Phaneuf was on the ice.

 

[fsdev905]

Absolutely. A better indicator would be how many shots got through to the goaltender while Phaneuf was on the ice.

That's what I'm asking for. Canada4Gold and someone else (forgot the poster) keeps harping on the GA/60 minutes. That's not an accurate indication of his play.

Shots against, scoring chances against when Dion is on the ice is a better indicator of how he compares to the other d-man.