TSN: Dion almost signed? Mod warning post #277

[The_Chosen_One]

Sorry, wrong

Silver in 2004 losing to the USofA
Gold in 2005

So all he needs to win is
-Crosby
-Getzlaf
-Mike Richards
-Corey Perry
-Carter
-Seabrook
-Weber
ect.


Nonis better get to work

No one is suggesting that we get these pieces. However, poor performance isn't that unusual. For instance, Minnesota doesn't look that impressive despite a top pairing of Suter and Brodin. Even worse are the Predators who have Weber, Josi, Klein, etc. What we actually need is great offensive performance from our SHELTERED mid pairing. Our third pairing which would traditionally more defensive is offensive as well.

Much like what Interactif said, Gardiner - for instance - is very sexy with the puck, but he isn't doing much despite being in a sheltered offensive role. So when Gunnarsson and Phaneuf are disrupting the game of the top lines, forcing them on the bench, the other pairings are expected to drive offence. Secondary PK minutes isn't an argument for poor performance under sheltered minutes!

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Having a change of heart. Wouldn't mind seeing Dion traded for a 1st, we tank and draft top 5 with our no. 1 and another 1st rounder. Rebuild properly. Wouldn't mind if one of Bernier or Reimer would fetch us another 1st either. Trade Clarkson and bozo while we are at it.

 

[rdawg1234]

Having a change of heart. Wouldn't mind seeing Dion traded for a 1st, we tank and draft top 5 with our no. 1 and another 1st rounder. Rebuild properly. Wouldn't mind if one of Bernier or Reimer would fetch us another 1st either. Trade Clarkson and bozo while we are at it.

We wouldn't tank that hard to get a good player in this weaker draft.

Buf, Edm, Calg, Florida, NYI are all pretty far behind us and much worse as a team.

If you mean tank next season, that would essentially mean trading Phaneuf, Kessel and JVR, even then I couldn't see us being a gaurenteed top 5 team, being as some other teams are extremely bare bones in talent(Buffalo, Edm has no defense at all, NYI is a mess, Florida is extremely young etc.)

Tanking is not an option realistically for this team, this is not NHL 14, managment wont accept Nonis having the idea of trading 3-4 players in their prime.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Love is BLIND, and we all know how much you love Dion.

We do need to acquire some help for Phaneuf. I think a true #1 D, moving Phaneuf down to #2 D, would do all kinds of good things for him.

The only problem is, that, if Nonis signs him for north of what he makes now, we'll not have the ability, cap wise, to sign or acquire a true #1 D!

A true #1D is someone who can generate good numbers on Carlyle and Wilson's system. This hope that Gardiner, Rielly, etc are going to replace Phaneuf is probably wishful thinking. We need to remember that he produced 49 points in his rookie season and on a low-scoring team as well.

I think there is a big difference in talent here. We're not a low tempo team like the Flames and these young defenceman are being sheltered. On Calgary, Phaneuf was essentially in an offensive top pairing role like Karlsson. It is true that he isn't up against top lines, but on the Leafs, Gunnarsson - Phaneuf are used in tandem with the top lines AND the shut down units. That means, Gardiner's minutes even against checking lines ( if with the first line) would be softer. By forcing the top line off the bench, defenceman like Gardiner should be maximizing possession of critical scoring areas.

Contending teams require versatile defenceman and Phaneuf is elite in that regard. He has produced strong offensive numbers and is excellent on a shut down role. For that reason, the top brass seems to be more geared on resigning him and why we'll see our younger, secondary players traded instead.

 

[Parkdale]

We wouldn't tank that hard to get a good player in this weaker draft.

Buf, Edm, Calg, Florida, NYI are all pretty far behind us and much worse as a team.

If you mean tank next season, that would essentially mean trading Phaneuf, Kessel and JVR, even then I couldn't see us being a gaurenteed top 5 team, being as some other teams are extremely bare bones in talent(Buffalo, Edm has no defense at all, NYI is a mess, Florida is extremely young etc.)

Tanking is not an option realistically for this team, this is not NHL 14, managment wont accept Nonis having the idea of trading 3-4 players in their prime.

The best we can hope for is that Nonis pulls off a strategic trade that might set us back a bit short term, but will bear fruit longer term. The asset that makes the most sense to be moved is Phaneuf.

 

[rdawg1234]

Contending teams require versatile defenceman and Phaneuf is elite in that regard. He has produced strong offensive numbers and is excellent on a shut down role. For that reason, the top brass seems to be more geared on resigning him and why we'll see our younger, secondary players traded instead.

We should be building around the guy.

I see some people asking for a fullout rebuild(i.e trading away Kessel+Phaneuf etc.)

when we could go down another path and try and trade/pickup/draft a #2-3 d-man+ trade for a 1b centre. Imo we go through this path and at least contend for a bit, this could happen much sooner!

we start rebuilding now and we'll be like Buffalo, years and years away from anything significant(and that's if we're lucky).

 

[Bomber0104]

We should be building around the guy.

I see some people asking for a fullout rebuild(i.e trading away Kessel+Phaneuf etc.)

when we could go down another path and try and trade/pickup/draft a #2-3 d-man+ trade for a 1b centre. Imo we go through this path and at least contend for a bit, this could happen much sooner!

we start rebuilding now and we'll be like Buffalo, years and years away from anything significant(and that's if we're lucky).

We've been "building" around Kessel and Phaneuf (complimentary players) for years now and we are going no where fast.

Maybe the problem is certain people trying to blur the lines between complimentary players and franchise players.

When you confuse the two terms, you can pretty well ruin any chances of contending in a competitive sports league.

 

[rdawg1234]

The best we can hope for is that Nonis pulls off a strategic trade that might set us back a bit short term, but will bear fruit longer term. The asset that makes the most sense to be moved is Phaneuf.

Or we could say, move an expendable piece(i.e Reimer) and bring in a guy like Girardi or someone of similar calibre.

Bam, Phaneuf-Girardi
Gunnar-Gardiner
Reilly-Percy/granberg/ranger/FA

What is moving Phaneuf going to do for us? if it's for a centre, it leaves us with the massive need of a top d-man, we have no d-man in the system that will become a defensemen the calibre of Phaneuf, Reilly might become a letang, but definitely wont be as good defensively(or at least, that's a longshot).

 

[rdawg1234]

We've been "building" around Kessel and Phaneuf (complimentary players) for years now and we are going no where fast.

we're still building around them, this team is far from complete.

we've only had them for 4 years, and have only started becoming/looking like a playoff team for two seasons(this one included).

Looking from a pure managment perspective, it would be silly to get rid of that talent now, being as they're just starting to put it together.

The smart thing to do is build around them and THEN see what they are capable of, don't just cut the building process to a halt when we hit a road bump, we looked like we were on the rise last year, clearly something is off this year.

It's just not realistic to trade away all your major pieces and expect to go back to contention, it will set the team back years, when we dont even know what they are capable of with a fully built team. Philly looks silly IMO after trading away JVR, Richards and Carter.

 

[Faltorvo]

We wouldn't tank that hard to get a good player in this weaker draft.

Buf, Edm, Calg, Florida, NYI are all pretty far behind us and much worse as a team.

If you mean tank next season, that would essentially mean trading Phaneuf, Kessel and JVR, even then I couldn't see us being a gaurenteed top 5 team, being as some other teams are extremely bare bones in talent(Buffalo, Edm has no defense at all, NYI is a mess, Florida is extremely young etc.)

Tanking is not an option realistically for this team, this is not NHL 14, managment wont accept Nonis having the idea of trading 3-4 players in their prime.

Calg could be 2 and Flo could be 4 behind once they play their games in hand, is that what you call "pretty far behind"?

 

[Bomber0104]

we're still building around them, this team is far from complete.

we've only had them for 4 years, and have only started becoming/looking like a playoff team for two seasons(this one included).

Looking from a pure managment perspective, it would be silly to get rid of that talent now, being as they're just starting to put it together.

The smart thing to do is build around them and THEN see what they are capable of, don't just cut the building process to a halt when we hit a road bump, we looked like we were on the rise last year, clearly something is off this year.

Only 4 years he says...

What the hell do you think the Leafs have been doing since they traded the farm for Kessel and picked up Dion Phaneuf? Sitting on their butts? We've waited YEARS for them to fill in the blanks but the problem is that the idiotic managers of this team decided to miscast those COMPLIMENTARY players as FRANCHISE players which is quite possibly the worst mistake you can make in pro sports.

When we acquired those two players did you really think those would be the best players we would have as an organization for the next 10 years?

Why is the bar set this low ?

 

[The_Chosen_One]

We should be building around the guy.

I see some people asking for a fullout rebuild(i.e trading away Kessel+Phaneuf etc.)

when we could go down another path and try and trade/pickup/draft a #2-3 d-man+ trade for a 1b centre. Imo we go through this path and at least contend for a bit, this could happen much sooner!

we start rebuilding now and we'll be like Buffalo, years and years away from anything significant(and that's if we're lucky).

If we do end up tanking, I don't see how Gardiner, Rielly, etc are going to fit under Carlyle's system. What the Leafs require is someone that is more defensively mature like Trouba. It's true that Carlyle liked Niedermayer ( who was paired with Beauchemin who focused on D), but when he entered, he was such a dominant puck rushing defenceman. In other words, Carlyle likes defensively-oriented/ physical defenceman, and we saw that in the Pronger - O'Donnell pairing.

This entire team would be ripped apart if we were to tank.

PS: The only perimeter forward on the Ducks was Teemu. Our top six doesn't even fit Carlyle's system. Someone like Kessel needs to be playing with Getzlaf and Perry, and not Kadri.

 

[rdawg1234]

Calg could be 2 and Flo could be 4 behind once they play their games in hand, is that what you call "pretty far behind"?

Calgary is built on garbage, their best player is probably monahan or giordano, they wont be passing us.

Florida is on a hotstreak, they'll be dropping very soon.

neither team has close to our talent, at least not in their prime.

 

[rdawg1234]

Only 4 years he says...

What the hell do you think the Leafs have been doing since they traded the farm for Kessel and picked up Dion Phaneuf? Sitting on their butts? We've waited YEARS for them to fill in the blanks but the problem is that the idiotic managers of this team decided to miscast those COMPLIMENTARY players as FRANCHISE players which is quite possibly the worst mistake you can make in pro sports.

When we acquired those two players did you really think those would be the best players we would have as an organization for the next 10 years?

Why is the bar set this low ?

I dont think you understand the concept of a rebuild. We brought in kessel and Phaneuf, but the rest of the team was still garbage, no goaltending, no forwards, this team was terrible.

We didnt actually start to look like a talented team on paper until about the 2011-2012 season, in which we actually held onto a playoff spot for a while, before the massive collapse.

complimentary and franchise is arguable, and I hate that description when you have a team filled with players that are still far from their prime.
We seemed to do pretty well against the bruins taking them to game 7, filled with this group of 'complimentary' players.

the NHL is much more of a team game than the NBA which relies on stars, there are multiple ways to win the cup, and I've seen numerous team makeups to do it.

 

[Bomber0104]

I dont think you understand the concept of a rebuild. We brought in kessel and Phaneuf, but the rest of the team was still garbage, no goaltending, no forwards, this team was terrible.

We didnt actually start to look like a talented team on paper until about the 2011-2012 season, in which we actually held onto a playoff spot for a while, before the massive collapse.

complimentary and franchise is arguable, and I hate that description when you have a team filled with players that are still far from their prime.
We seemed to do pretty well against the bruins taking them to game 7, filled with this group of 'complimentary' players.

the NHL is much more of a team game than the NBA which relies on stars, there are multiple ways to win the cup, and I've seen numerous team makeups to do it.

I think I know perfectly well what a contending team looks like...more importantly how it came to be that way...

I'll tell you what contending teams did not do to reach those heights.

They did not in any way pay COMPLIMENTARY PLAYERS... like Kessel and Phaneuf... ten freaking percent of their salary cap apiece....most call that FRANCHISE PLAYER money...and then work backwards and try and find their franchise players after they handcuffed themselves as an organization.

 

[rdawg1234]

If we do end up tanking, I don't see how Gardiner, Rielly, etc are going to fit under Carlyle's system. What the Leafs require is someone that is more defensively mature like Trouba. It's true that Carlyle liked Niedermayer ( who was paired with Beauchemin who focused on D), but when he entered, he was such a dominant puck rushing defenceman. In other words, Carlyle likes defensively-oriented/ physical defenceman, and we saw that in the Pronger - O'Donnell pairing.

This entire team would be ripped apart if we were to tank.

PS: The only perimeter forward on the Ducks was Teemu. Our top six doesn't even fit Carlyle's system. Someone like Kessel needs to be playing with Getzlaf and Perry, and not Kadri.

Kadri's doesn't suit the needs of a kessel, we need a strong two-way goalscoring centre(i.e Sundin) to go in between kessel and JVR.

We're still building, we have to remember that, with one key trade for a top 4 d-man, this defense can look alot better, if you give phaneuf a solid partner, that means gunnar can be relegated to the 2nd pairing, which will boost it alot. Then all you really need is a reliable 3rd pairing guy, which would be cheap to come by.

Basically all i'm saying is, trade expendable pieces(Bozak, Reimer, Franson a 1st if you really need to, maybe Gardiner) and bring in these two things. Then if it doesn't work out, rip it all down.

 

[Faltorvo]

Calgary is built on garbage, their best player is probably monahan or giordano, they wont be passing us.

Florida is on a hotstreak, they'll be dropping very soon.

neither team has close to our talent, at least not in their prime.

Well your opinion and the standings at almost the midway point in the season don't jive.

 

[diceman934]

A true #1D is someone who can generate good numbers on Carlyle and Wilson's system. This hope that Gardiner, Rielly, etc are going to replace Phaneuf is probably wishful thinking. We need to remember that he produced 49 points in his rookie season and on a low-scoring team as well.

I think there is a big difference in talent here. We're not a low tempo team like the Flames and these young defenceman are being sheltered. On Calgary, Phaneuf was essentially in an offensive top pairing role like Karlsson. It is true that he isn't up against top lines, but on the Leafs, Gunnarsson - Phaneuf are used in tandem with the top lines AND the shut down units. That means, Gardiner's minutes even against checking lines ( if with the first line) would be softer. By forcing the top line off the bench, defenceman like Gardiner should be maximizing possession of critical scoring areas.

Contending teams require versatile defenceman and Phaneuf is elite in that regard. He has produced strong offensive numbers and is excellent on a shut down role. For that reason, the top brass seems to be more geared on resigning him and why we'll see our younger, secondary players traded instead.

Dion has not produced at level here even under the run and Gun Wilson coaching.....

Dion is not now nor is he ever going to be an Elite D man.....never!

He is a good D man who is lacking qualities you would want from a player that you are going to pay as an Elite player. lacks foot speed, is a average at best passer of the puck. He is a very limited D man....gives up far to many scoring chances for him to be considered among the best Defensively in the NHL as well.


Rielly will be an Elite offensive D man, He skates better, carries the puck better and passes better then Dion ever has. Dion has the harder shot. IQ is vastly different as Dion lacks on ice vision. For you to think that Rielly will not be as good offensively makes me wonder just what you watch. On any other team in the League Rielly would be playing huge minutes and his number much greater. He is playing on his wrong side with a different partner ever game and sometimes every shift....talk about a talent.

 

[diceman934]

Do you not understand the logic of your argument? Gardiner, a forward, who cannot even make use of his sheltered minutes to produce should be granted PP minutes over a defenceman who is productive when given the toughest minutes. To give Gardiner PP minutes over Phaneuf would not be rewarding work ethic at all.

Never mind that we're dealing with a team sport here. If we look at individuals, poor play has been consistent amongst our mid and low pairings. Our forwards as a whole have been putrid (outside of Holland, I suppose) in terms of defence.

We could use this ridiculous argument and suggest that Shea Weber lacks leadership as well. That team is more built for a hard trap system. Carlyle, interestingly, seems to be throwing us towards that kind of system since we regularly collapse into the defensive zone and only take high percentage shots. In other words, we're not seeing the CORSI fallacy committed here.

What I find hilarious is that, we're blaming Phaneuf for leadership even though he's successful in what he's assigned to do. That is, containing top scoring lines and forcing low percentage scoring shots. On the other hand, our other pairings usually represent the holes that make it possible for our opposition to produce. Yes, Phaneuf makes errors, but he is playing very difficult minutes. I expect our most sheltered pairings to do more of the offensive work especially when their defensive game is atrocious.


What in the world are you talking about? Lupul is widely inconsistent. He is not very versatile and cannot play Carlyle's dump and chase hockey. That is, once we collapse into the defensive zone, retrieve the puck, and transition into the neutral zone, expect a perimeter game. We are poor along the boards, can't maintain possession time in critical scoring areas, and Lupul is one of the main reasons why we're so poor in that regard.

It's pretty ridiculous when McClement - Kulemin are cycling the puck the best and helping us enable presence in critical scoring areas. In other words, our checking line is more productive than our top six in driving effective possession. This is sheer madness.

I replied to your nonsense: Gardiner, even Kadri up front are extremely one-dimensional.

Please back up this...

 

[stavs*]

a true test for this team would be the absence of phaneuf in more than a few games, try 10 to see how the defense perform without him. It would be a small sample, but at least we would have a sense whether our younger D could manager the workload. Sadly, Phaneuf is really beginning to wear on me, and I would be open to trade him for a good package of picks and prospects. There would be a gaping hole in our defense, but I dont think he's going to be the type of player that will help us win a cup. I could be wrong, but his play as of late has been pitiful, its an embarassment sometimes to think of previous Leaf captains and how great they were,and then Phaneuf being part of that group.

 

[KPower]

Phaneuf has been really good this season minus the last game.

But if Nonis signs him to a 7 year deal he will run out of town in 3 or 4 years IMO.

 

[agropop]

I think Dion needs to be resigned. I'd like to see our core as Dion, Gardiner, and Reilly, the rest need to be shipped out.

 

[Joey24]

I think Dion needs to be resigned. I'd like to see our core as Dion, Gardiner, and Reilly, the rest need to be shipped out.

I am not opposed to Dion being signed either, I just don't think he's worth 7 million.. Is he? He got that big contract in Calgary where he was the highest scoring defenseman in the league I believe (goal wise).

But his goal numbers have not been close for a while now and he still makes rookie mistakes and doesn't seem to have the drive or compete level other top end players have. I personally don't think he's worth 7 million and tbh would rather trade him then sigh him to that kind of money.

But it does leave a big hole and I don't think Gardiner is the answer either. That being said he will be resigned and it will likely be 7 - 7+ million over the next 6 years +. So I doubt it really matters if we want him or don't want him in Toronto at that cap hit.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Of course, but I don't think that replacing Ashton, Fraser and McLaren is going to put this team over the top either. Keeping your core and giving them raises makes it even harder to improve the rest of the roster, if that's the problem.

That doesn't even make any sense. Your core players are supposed to make big $, hence why they're your core. They're the foundation, without them you might as well just not build the house at all. For example, that would be like saying the Hawks should've traded a Kane, Hossa or Toews just so they could keep a Bolland and Versteeg.

 

[The Blue Devil]

Yeah agreed. I wonder why no teams have approached Roberts and try to get him to work for them exclusively.

Pretty sure he is or was employed by Dallas.