Rumor: Dhaliwal- Boeser to Pens is a real possibility

[Empoleon8771]

Today I learned that a 25 year old Kapanen on pace for ~40 points while being a pending RFA making $3.2 million is comparable to:

-Galchenyuk as a 25 year old pending UFA while being on pace for 30 points and making $5 million
-Tyler Johnson as a 30 year old forward making $5 million with term while being a 30 point player
-Tatar who was traded for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd 5 months before being traded in the Pacioretty deal
-Lindberg as a pending UFA on pace for 25 points and making like $2.5 million

Damn, I'm totally wrong here! Kapanen is absolutely a cap dump! Man, I'm just such a massive idiot for not seeing it. At least if you'd bring up someone like Andreas Johnsson or even Jared McCann (although this was mostly due to the expansion draft), you might have a point. But seriously, those f***ing guys? Seriously? Who next, are you going to mention Derrick Brassard as if he's comparable to Kapanen?

Again, just because you don't think Kapanen fills a need for your team doesn't mean he doesn't have value or is a cap dump. That's like me saying "Hoglander doesn't fill a need for my team, so he wouldn't have any value in a trade to my team".

 

[Empoleon8771]

POJ seems like a pretty legit prospect. Too bad he shoots left. Would really like a RHD with Boeser, but it’s not like we’re stacked on the left side after QH and OEL we’re playing Brad Hunt.

Kapanen shooting right is nice but let’s not pretend he has a lot of value. I don’t think Kap and POJ are enough by themselves and Pitts 2nd is probably 55 to 60 OV territory.

If Nucks are still in the PO hunt and the best offer is POJ, Kap, 2nd, they might prefer to wait till the off-season. If Pitt really wants him now, they might need to part with their 1st to incentivize Van.

POJ plays an incredibly similar style to Marino, he's just a lefty instead of a righty. I know the handiness thing would be an issue, but if you think Marino would be a really nice acquisition in a Boeser trade, I think you'd ultimately be satisfied with POJ. JR said that POJ can play RD before he left, but I don't recall ever seeing him tried on RD with the Penguins.

I don't think Kapanen has "a lot" of value right now. His value is probably comparable to a lot of other younger middle-6 RFAs who have been traded in recent years, something like 2 2nds if I had to guess (based on trades like Shaw, Eller and Burakovsky). His value is definitely not what JR paid for it 2 years ago, but he's also not this valueless throw-in either.

If you assume 2 2nds equals a 1st, is POJ, a 1st and 2nd for Boeser that far off? A 1st and 2nd falls in that Toffoli/Zucker trade range, is that plus POJ enough to get up to Boeser?

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

POJ plays an incredibly similar style to Marino, he's just a lefty instead of a righty. I know the handiness thing would be an issue, but if you think Marino would be a really nice acquisition in a Boeser trade, I think you'd ultimately be satisfied with POJ. JR said that POJ can play RD before he left, but I don't recall ever seeing him tried on RD with the Penguins.

I don't think Kapanen has "a lot" of value right now. His value is probably comparable to a lot of other younger middle-6 RFAs who have been traded in recent years, something like 2 2nds if I had to guess (based on trades like Shaw, Eller and Burakovsky). His value is definitely not what JR paid for it 2 years ago, but he's also not this valueless throw-in either.

If you assume 2 2nds equals a 1st, is POJ, a 1st and 2nd for Boeser that far off? A 1st and 2nd falls in that Toffoli/Zucker trade range, is that plus POJ enough to get up to Boeser?

Honestly that sounds pretty reasonable for both sides. I would do that as a Canucks fan.

 

[kcunac]

POJ plays an incredibly similar style to Marino, he's just a lefty instead of a righty. I know the handiness thing would be an issue, but if you think Marino would be a really nice acquisition in a Boeser trade, I think you'd ultimately be satisfied with POJ. JR said that POJ can play RD before he left, but I don't recall ever seeing him tried on RD with the Penguins.

I don't think Kapanen has "a lot" of value right now. His value is probably comparable to a lot of other younger middle-6 RFAs who have been traded in recent years, something like 2 2nds if I had to guess (based on trades like Shaw, Eller and Burakovsky). His value is definitely not what JR paid for it 2 years ago, but he's also not this valueless throw-in either.

If you assume 2 2nds equals a 1st, is POJ, a 1st and 2nd for Boeser that far off? A 1st and 2nd falls in that Toffoli/Zucker trade range, is that plus POJ enough to get up to Boeser?

I don’t think Kap’s value is 2 2nds. Maybe one late 2nd.

yes I think 1st, 2nd, POJ gets it done, and that’s because it’s similar value to Kap, POJ 1st not Kap, POJ, 2nd.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t think Kap’s value is 2 2nds. Maybe one late 3nd.

yes I think 1st, 2nd, POJ gets it done, and that’s because it’s similar value to Kap, POJ 1st not Kap, POJ, 2nd.

I gave you literally 3 examples of players comparable to Kapanen who brought back 2 2nds or something very similar.

What is your basis to claim that Kapanen's value is "one late 3rd"? Detroit got that for Riley Sheahan as he was coming off a season of 2 goals and 13 points in 82 games. How is Kapanen not comparable to Burakovsky? That comparison seems completely appropriate to me.

When Burakovsky was traded, he was coming off a somewhat dud season of 25 points in 76 games, where he fell in Washington's depth chart and was only playing 11 minutes a night. In the previous 3 seasons, he had years of 38 points in 79 games, 35 points in 64 games and 25 points in 56 games. He was traded to Colorado for picks #56 and #80.

 

[elitepete]

POJ plays an incredibly similar style to Marino, he's just a lefty instead of a righty. I know the handiness thing would be an issue, but if you think Marino would be a really nice acquisition in a Boeser trade, I think you'd ultimately be satisfied with POJ. JR said that POJ can play RD before he left, but I don't recall ever seeing him tried on RD with the Penguins.

I don't think Kapanen has "a lot" of value right now. His value is probably comparable to a lot of other younger middle-6 RFAs who have been traded in recent years, something like 2 2nds if I had to guess (based on trades like Shaw, Eller and Burakovsky). His value is definitely not what JR paid for it 2 years ago, but he's also not this valueless throw-in either.

If you assume 2 2nds equals a 1st, is POJ, a 1st and 2nd for Boeser that far off? A 1st and 2nd falls in that Toffoli/Zucker trade range, is that plus POJ enough to get up to Boeser?

Is POJ more of a defensive dman or offensive? How physical is he, and can he pk?

 

[kcunac]

Is John Marino playing poorly this season? He’s -6 on a team that is +33; or is it just that he plays tougher minutes then he can handle and is a little snake bitten around the net (1.6 S%)?

Seems like he could be a fit, probably for an off-season deal since Pitt probably doesn’t want to deal a valuable roster guy during the year. Unless of course Marino sucks now. He was good the last couple of ears though. Haven’t watch him lately.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is POJ more of a defensive dman or offensive? How physical is he, and can he pk?

Much more defensive than offensive, not physical at all, yes he PKs.

Like I said, he's super similar in play style to Marino, he's just a lefty.

 

[elitepete]

Much more defensive than offensive, not physical at all, yes he PKs.

Like I said, he's super similar in play style to Marino, he's just a lefty.

I would probably do that barring another offering something better

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is John Marino playing poorly this season? He’s -6 on a team that is +33; or is it just that he plays tougher minutes then he can handle and is a little snake bitten around the net (1.6 S%)?

Seems like he could be a fit, probably for an off-season deal since Pitt probably doesn’t want to deal a valuable roster guy during the year. Unless of course Marino sucks now. He was good the last couple of ears though. Haven’t watch him lately.

That has been heavily debated among Penguins fans because it's a question of what you want out of a defenseman. On one hand, his analytics really aren't very good, he's still playing well defensively but his offensive analytics have completely dried up. On the other hand, his defensive metrics are strong as he's playing 21 minutes a night in all situations against tough competition, and he's putting up a good amount of points doing so. I'm in the second group, but there are definitely people in the first group.

He wouldn't be available because it's looking fairly likely Letang is walking as a UFA after the year and they can't afford to trade Marino. The same reason that Vancouver would presumably want Marino is why the Penguins couldn't really afford to trade him.

 

[Cogburn]

Today I learned that a 25 year old Kapanen on pace for ~40 points while being a pending RFA making $3.2 million is comparable to:

-Galchenyuk as a 25 year old pending UFA while being on pace for 30 points and making $5 million
-Tyler Johnson as a 30 year old forward making $5 million with term while being a 30 point player
-Tatar who was traded for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd 5 months before being traded in the Pacioretty deal
-Lindberg as a pending UFA on pace for 25 points and making like $2.5 million

Damn, I'm totally wrong here! Kapanen is absolutely a cap dump! Man, I'm just such a massive idiot for not seeing it. At least if you'd bring up someone like Andreas Johnsson or even Jared McCann (although this was mostly due to the expansion draft), you might have a point. But seriously, those f***ing guys? Seriously? Who next, are you going to mention Derrick Brassard as if he's comparable to Kapanen?

Again, just because you don't think Kapanen fills a need for your team doesn't mean he doesn't have value or is a cap dump. That's like me saying "Hoglander doesn't fill a need for my team, so he wouldn't have any value in a trade to my team".

You wanted one example of "a player like Kapanen", a top sixish winger in his mid-to-late twenties, that scores at a half PPG clip and has hit 20 goals once in his career being a cap dump. You got six, and think that they are all able to be thrown out because...circumstances? I thought I was being generous with some of them being compared to Kapanen, to be honest.

Kapanen is a cap dump to a team that doesn't need him, yes. Please, convince me otherwise instead of throwing a tantrum and calling my argument stupid. And you had your own examples you liked better and still asked me to give some? But none of yours have the exact age, scoring rate, goal scoring rate, quality of ice time or any other metric, they don't count either, I guess.

Yes, I would fully expect that reaction if you were asked to trade for a completely redundant asset. Value isn't fixed and constant, and varies a lot based on needs. Would you want Pittsburgh to give up a kings ransom for Demko to match Toronto or Edmonton in their likely desperate offer? Then measure the value of cap space spent versus the difference between Demko and DeSmith for the 15 games Desmith has played. Is 15 games of Demko worth 3.75 million, especially if you expect an internal replacement to be a back up next season? Of course not.

 

[elitepete]

Alternatively, would the Pens do something like Boeser+Schenn for Pettersson+1st+Poulin?

 

[Empoleon8771]

You wanted one example of "a player like Kapanen", a top sixish winger in his mid-to-late twenties, that scores at a half PPG clip and has hit 20 goals once in his career being a cap dump. You got six, and think that they are all able to be thrown out because...circumstances? I thought I was being generous with some of them being compared to Kapanen, to be honest.

Kapanen is a cap dump to a team that doesn't need him, yes. Please, convince me otherwise instead of throwing a tantrum and calling my argument stupid. And you had your own examples you liked better and still asked me to give some? But none of yours have the exact age, scoring rate, goal scoring rate, quality of ice time or any other metric, they don't count either, I guess.

Yes, I would fully expect that reaction if you were asked to trade for a completely redundant asset. Value isn't fixed and constant, and varies a lot based on needs. Would you want Pittsburgh to give up a kings ransom for Demko to match Toronto or Edmonton in their likely desperate offer? Then measure the value of cap space spent versus the difference between Demko and DeSmith for the 15 games Desmith has played. Is 15 games of Demko worth 3.75 million, especially if you expect an internal replacement to be a back up next season? Of course not.

1. Tyler Johnson was traded at age 30 and had term with an awful contract.
2. Galchenyuk was not nearly as good as Kapanen today when he was traded. Galchenyuk was a horrid ES player who relied on the powerplay to get points. That's like the exact opposite of what Kapanen was.
3. Lindberg was never as good as Kapanen at any point in the NHL.
4. Tatar had value in the trade when he was traded.

I can't convince someone who's saying something fundamentally stupid while being stubborn that they're wrong. I can give you plenty of examples of players who were in Kapanen's exact position that weren't cap dumps, with Burakovsky being the leading example, but you'll just dismiss it as wrong because "I say so".

When I say "give me an example of a player in Kapanen's shoes", I mean players that are actually comparable. Guys like Burakovsky, Eller, Shaw and Kunin are actually comparable.

 

[Ryder71]

I would probably do that barring another offering something better

He has 28 points including nine goals in 40 games. Second highest points per game on the team and DOC has only played a handful of games (his average is higher and he's a forward). POJ does have some offensive acumen. Very mobile, good first pass, he's just really thin and has trouble carrying weight. I'd prefer we don't trade him, hopefully JR wants Poulin.

 

[kcunac]

I gave you literally 3 examples of players comparable to Kapanen who brought back 2 2nds or something very similar.

What is your basis to claim that Kapanen's value is "one late 3rd"? Detroit got that for Riley Sheahan as he was coming off a season of 2 goals and 13 points in 82 games. How is Kapanen not comparable to Burakovsky? That comparison seems completely appropriate to me.

When Burakovsky was traded, he was coming off a somewhat dud season of 25 points in 76 games, where he fell in Washington's depth chart and was only playing 11 minutes a night. In the previous 3 seasons, he had years of 38 points in 79 games, 35 points in 64 games and 25 points in 56 games. He was traded to Colorado for picks #56 and #80.

It was a typo, I meant to say 2nd (hence why is was ‘3nd’ and not ‘3rd’.

I just think those other players bring more in terms of position, physicality, upside/draft pedigree, or salary. I also think the cap is tighter now then ever and Kap is not underpaid for what he brings.

We have an ongoing debate on our board about Pearson’s value. He’s paid similar to cap but brings more physicality and won a SC. Most on our board also think Pearson is worth only a third.

Anyway, I don’t have the time to research all the circumstances in depth of the trade’s you mention, but I note we agree on the value anyway (1st, 2nd, POJ). Though I wonder if Pitt can manage this cap wise…

 

[elitepete]

He has 28 points including nine goals in 40 games. Second highest points per game on the team and DOC has only played a handful of games (his average is higher and he's a forward) He does have some offensive acumen. Very mobile, good first pass, he's just really thin and has trouble carrying weight. I'd prefer we don't trade him, hopefully JR wants Poulin.

Isn't Poulin a good prospect? Canucks could definitely use a young pwf..

 

[Ryder71]

Alternatively, would the Pens do something like Boeser+Schenn for Pettersson+1st+Poulin?

Why would we trade a top four defensemen and create a hole there if we're trying to go on a run? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It was a typo, I meant to say 2nd (hence why is was ‘3nd’ and not ‘3rd’.

I just think those other players bring more in terms of position, physicality, upside/draft pedigree, or salary. I also think the cap is tighter now then ever and Kap is not underpaid for what he brings.

We have an ongoing debate on our board about Pearson’s value. He’s paid similar to cap but brings more physicality and won a SC. Most on our board also think Pearson is worth only a third.

Anyway, I don’t have the time to research all the circumstances in depth of the trade’s you mention, but I note we agree on the value anyway (1st, 2nd, POJ). Though I wonder if Pitt can manage this cap wise…

Ah that makes way more sense, gotcha. I think Kapanen's value is higher, but the difference between a 2nd vs a 2nd and 3rd or 2 2nds really isn't that much. At least not worth having a big squabble over

 

[Ryder71]

Isn't Poulin a good prospect? Canucks could definitely use a young pwf..

Initially Poulin looked good. When covid hit his play has been meh at best. I'd be all for a package of KK, Poulin and something else, but definitely not a 1st. KK and Poulin are both 1st rounders (not that that in and of itself would entice you guys) but JR regarded Poulin highly. Maybe we add something else.

 

[elitepete]

Initially Poulin looked good. When covid hit his play has been meh at best. I'd be all for a package of KK, Poulin and something else, but definitely not a 1st. KK and Poulin are both 1st rounders (not that that in and of itself would entice you guys) but JR regarded Poulin highly. Maybe we add something else.

Rather do Emploean's offer than this

 

[elitepete]

Why would we trade a top four defensemen and create a hole there if we're trying to go on a run? That doesn't make any sense.

DIdn't know that. Thought he was more of a #5

 

[Ryder71]

Rather do Emploean's offer than this

I'm sure you would. lol

 

[Ryder71]

DIdn't know that. Thought he was more of a #5

No, he's top four.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To respond to 2 posts above:

-Poulin's a weird prospect because he doesn't really have any stand out skills, but he also has pretty much no flaws as a player. He was a winger up through being drafted and then was randomly moved to center, and has absolutely excelled in the position. "Jack of all trades" seems to fit him well. He was compared to Saad when he was drafted, but he projects to be more of a 2-way middle-6 center with size going forward. I want to mention Jordan Staal as a comparison, but Staal's a weird guy to evaluate. I would put Poulin and POJ on about the same level as prospects.
-Pettersson has fallen out of favor to Sullivan, but not in a way you'd expect. He's still being used as the 2nd pair LD, he's just getting absolutely no special teams minutes and Matheson is consistently playing more than him on the 3rd pair. Matheson has been amazing this year, so it's fair he's playing more, but Pettersson's usage has been very odd from Sullivan. If you want me to be completely honest, I don't think Canucks fans should want his contract. I wouldn't say that Pettersson at $4 million is "bad" value for what he gives on the ice, but I think you can get players with more usefulness than just a bland effective 5v5 defenseman for that price. The value Pettersson is giving you is fine for $4 million, but I think you're better off with getting a guy with worse 5v5 results but also offers say special teams upside or physicality for that price.

To sum up that last point with Pettersson, I'd rather have a $4 million defenseman with okay analytics but physicality and special teams usefulness over a $4 million defenseman with very strong analytics and pretty much nothing else. Even if both are worth $4 million, I'd rather have the player who offers a wider variety of usefulness. That's basically what Pettersson is:

 

[LiffLaff]

You wanted one example of "a player like Kapanen", a top sixish winger in his mid-to-late twenties, that scores at a half PPG clip and has hit 20 goals once in his career being a cap dump. You got six, and think that they are all able to be thrown out because...circumstances? I thought I was being generous with some of them being compared to Kapanen, to be honest.

Kapanen is a cap dump to a team that doesn't need him, yes. Please, convince me otherwise instead of throwing a tantrum and calling my argument stupid. And you had your own examples you liked better and still asked me to give some? But none of yours have the exact age, scoring rate, goal scoring rate, quality of ice time or any other metric, they don't count either, I guess.

Yes, I would fully expect that reaction if you were asked to trade for a completely redundant asset. Value isn't fixed and constant, and varies a lot based on needs. Would you want Pittsburgh to give up a kings ransom for Demko to match Toronto or Edmonton in their likely desperate offer? Then measure the value of cap space spent versus the difference between Demko and DeSmith for the 15 games Desmith has played. Is 15 games of Demko worth 3.75 million, especially if you expect an internal replacement to be a back up next season? Of course not.

So what are you expecting to get out of a Boeser trade if you move him? JR has stated he wants more speed and skill, and I would assume Alvin is on board with that.
The player beeing offerd brings both of those things, and would give you some more cap flexibility, on top of that you would be getting one of the Pens best prospects (wich isn't saying much, I know) in POJ who allso gives you more of that, and a late second rounder, for a player who's not having the best season so far compared to what he's done in the past, and who has a QO I presume Van doesn't want to pay, hence why he's one the block in the first place.. I'm not saying it's imposible someone might offer more, but to say it doesn't serve a need for you guys seems to go against everything your front office has been saying after they took over.