Prospect Info: Devils Win #2 Overall -- Slafkovsky vs. Jiricek vs. Nemec

[beekay414]

Again...someone explain to me what makes Logan Cooley BPA? I've asked and haven't gotten an answer. The only thing I've seen is that "you don't pass on a player for size" and not why he's BPA. The resident draft guru says otherwise and has full-on explained what makes Slafkovsky his #2 aka BPA (and even then, he still hasn't made the decision on whether he'd take Slaf or Jiricek) but I haven't heard from the Cooley supporters what makes him the BPA and why he's so worth avoiding the better fit for?

@Hisch13r why's your boy BPA? Tell me. I've asked you numerous times and the only thing you can do is speak in hyperbole about herr derr smol boy no good rather than actually having a conversation about why you feel he's BPA for us. I genuinely wanna know why/how he's BPA.

 

[Hisch13r]

@Hisch13r why's your boy BPA? Tell me. I've asked you numerous times and the only thing you can do is speak in hyperbole about herr derr smol boy no good rather than actually having a conversation about why you feel he's BPA for us. I genuinely wanna know why/how he's BPA.

You're really in your feelings on this. You're the one who brought him up out of literally nowhere. So I respond with an equally dumb and snarky comment. He's also literally not even my boy... He's not my pick.

 

[beekay414]

You're really in your feelings on this. You're the one who brought him up out of literally nowhere. So I respond with an equally dumb and snarky comment. He's also literally not even my boy... He's not my pick.

You literally bitched about my inclination to wanna pass on him because he's more of the same. Why throw such a bitch fit about passing on him if he's not your pick?

 

[Forge]

If you look at the league's elite wingers, they're taken at the top of the draft

Imagine saying this on the devils board where @glenwo2 can read it

 

[beekay414]

You're really in your feelings on this. You're the one who brought him up out of literally nowhere. So I respond with an equally dumb and snarky comment. He's also literally not even my boy... He's not my pick.

oh and you've been making dumb snarky size comments about Cooley without my posting about him so who is really the one up in their feelings on this.

And I know Jiricek is your pick fwiw but Cooley was your forward pick. I just find it pretty comical that you're so staunchly defending Cooley for no reason whatsoever.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

I don't think Slafkovsky has a chance to be as good as Jagr in his prime, but I could see him being similar to the Jaromir Jagr we had on the team in 2013-14.

That's barely above 20-21 Zacha's level of point production.

You want to see this board really burn down?

Whatch Slafkovsky put up 67 points in 82 games as a 22 or 23 year old playing on Hughes' wing.

We don't need or expect a 25 year old Jagr, but a 35+ Jagr would be a nightmare and an abject failure by management unless somehow every player drafted after him in the top 10 ended up being worse.

 

[Hisch13r]

That's barely above 20-21 Zacha's level of point production.

You want to see this board really burn down?

Whatch Slafkovsky put up 67 points in 82 games as a 22 or 23 year old playing on Hughes' wing.

We don't need or expect a 25 year old Jagr, but a 35+ Jagr would be a nightmare and an abject failure by management unless somehow every player drafted after him in the top 10 ended up being worse.

That's the sort of production level that seems much more reasonable to me than like 80-90+. If that can come with elite two way play driving I'll easily take that. If it doesn't then that's much rougher.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

That's the sort of production level that seems much more reasonable to me than like 80-90+. If that can come with elite two way play driving I'll easily take that. If it doesn't then that's much rougher.

How are you driving play if you're putting up 67 points in a full season as a 2OA LW? Are we expecting Jack and Sharangovich or Nico and Bratt to have ~100 each with Luke chipping in 80?

Perhaps we have different definitions.

I expect no less than 75-80 by 23 at the absolute least given his draft position and the centers he's being gifted. Our best scouting sleuths around here find his closest comparable to be Rantanen. That guy's been crushing it since about the same year Mackinnon started to. When he was 20. Well, we have our Mackinnon and he's better at a younger age homie.

Shit, 67 should be the goal by D+2 if he's really worth this high of a pick. If Fitz doesn't wholeheartedly agree with me then dman or telephone it is.

 

[Hisch13r]

How are you driving play if you're putting up 67 points in a full season? Are we expecting Jack and Bratt to have ~100 each with Luke chipping in 80?

Perhaps we have different definitions.

Nichushkin just put up a 69 pt pace while being one of the very best two way play driving wings in the league. If you can get something like this from when he's 22-32 I'd be more than pleased. That's like a Bratt level player and I would not mind getting a Bratt level player 2OA in this draft. Personally I just don't know if he reaches that level.

 

[Tretyak 20]

Cooley is 5'10" I would hope he'd be a better skater than a 6'4" forward. We've already gone over why comparing production across youth leagues doesn't compare to players that play in men's leagues and it's not like Cooley tore up the USHL like some of his USNTDP predecessors did.

Slaf is a damn good skater for someone his size. He has powerful strides and can play at multiple tempos. He'll have no problem skating with Jack for the same reasons Dawson Mercer has no problem skating with him.

I just don't see the appeal of Cooley over a unicorn like Slafkovsky. You're not drafting someone for what their production was at 17/18 either. You're drafting them for what they're going to do in the pros and Slafkovsky's game translates no matter how you wanna break it down.

Cooley is a jack-of-all-trades, master of none type for me. He's a fine pick and will be a fine player but I have absolutely no idea where this idea that he's BPA comes from. I've said it, what feels like a million times, the difference between this forward group is razor thin. You could make an argument for any one of Slafkovsky, Nazar, Savoie or Cooley as the #2 forward. This is why it was brought up that you take organizational fit into account when making a final decision. The only way you don't is if someone distances themselves from the pack and, if any of the forwards are likely to do that, it's going to be Slafkovsky. I think people need to brace for the fact that he's going to be our pick.

No way has Cooley distanced himself from the pack. Great prospect, but the chances he'll ever be better than Hughes or Nico are very slim. Our pick will be determined by Montreal, and it will either be Slafkovsky or Wright. Anyone else IMO would be a mistake at this point.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Nichushkin just put up a 69 pt pace while being one of the very best two way play driving wings in the league. If you can get something like this from when he's 22-32 I'd be more than pleased. That's like a Bratt level player and I would not mind getting a Bratt level player 2OA in this draft. Personally I just don't know if he reaches that level.

Ahh, the analytics department is here. Makes more sense.

Let's look at the trajectory of Valeri's career and you tell me whether or not you think the guy would've been worth the 2OA in any draft over the past decade. Keep in mind I was chomping at the bit for him in 2013 and very torn while standing on the balcony at the rock after trading for Schneider instead of just taking him. At #9, not #2.

Solid season for sure and I'd be happy to acquire him in the offseason for anything near $4mil, but the guy hasn't exactly had a stellar career. Hence the impending free agency.

That's why you don't get it ($$$$) from 22-32. Because a player like this gets maligned for putting up disappointing point totals given their draft position and poor attitude.

Most (knowledgeable) fans and management understand this. The numbers guys consistently fall back on some variation of 'trust us, it'll come', and that I just can't abide when we're selecting #2 and you're using a borderline journeyman malcontent who's playing with one of the best centers in the league as your prime example.

Edit: since you seem to be an analytics guy, I'd actually use Billy Beane's - probably paraphrased at best - quote for hockey but against the principle. Something along the lines of: do I give a shit if it's a hit or a walk? He gets on base.

And when I look at hockey that's what I see. Do I give a shit if it's Clarkson scoring a garbage goal or a perfect Kovy one timer? It's a goal.

I know that's an overly simplistic view in some regards, but at the end of the day if Valeri is so effective where are the points and why is he going to cost 7mil or less? And quite possibly much less.

 

[glenwo2]

Imagine saying this on the devils board where @glenwo2 can read it

I don't get it.

 

[Oneiro]

Common denominator between Lafreniere and Kakko is passable but not noteworthy skating. I think Slaf moves better than both of those guys and has more playmaking chops but if you take a look at the goals tonight - TB-TOR, McDavid's insurance goal, etc. - far more offense is being generated off the rush than ever.

The best players in the game skate well and create in transition. The high event game seems to be the way the league is headed, especially if you have a new commissioner trying to sell the game to a new generation. You might like the Jagr-isms in Slafkovsky's game - I certainly do - but it's not necessarily as useful as it was, despite whatever narrative people here want to emphasize because they grew up on that brand of hockey. In a game that's getting called tighter and tighter, where high end vision and skating are only growing in importance relative to the eternal emphasis on battling along the walls and below the goal line, I could see why a team like us would take Cooley. He does everything fast - his hands and skating are for sure faster than Slaf and I'd argue he's a much better transition guy. He's a very 2020s kind of player.

I'm not advocating we pick Cooley - I'm leaning towards betting on the upside of Slaf or Jiricek because we can afford to take that risk - but c'mon now. He could easily shift to wing and be a much more impactful player than Slafkovsky simply because his skillset is more valuable/relevant.

Rarity =/= value. I don't give a shit if a guy is a unicorn, I care if he gets results.

 

[Forge]

I don't get it.

"Elite wingers are taken at the top of the draft"

Shots fired at Bratt apparently not elite

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Common denominator between Lafreniere and Kakko is passable but not noteworthy skating. I think Slaf moves better than both of those guys and has more playmaking chops but if you take a look at the goals tonight - TB-TOR, McDavid's insurance goal, etc. - far more offense is being generated off the rush than ever.

The best players in the game skate well and create in transition. The high event game seems to be the way the league is headed, especially if you have a new commissioner trying to sell the game to a new generation. You might like the Jagr-isms in Slafkovsky's game - I certainly do - but it's not necessarily as useful as it was, despite whatever narrative people here want to emphasize because they grew up on that brand of hockey. In a game that's getting called tighter and tighter, where high end vision and skating are only growing in importance relative to the eternal emphasis on battling along the walls and below the goal line, I could see why a team like us would take Cooley. He does everything fast - his hands and skating are for sure faster than Slaf and I'd argue he's a much better transition guy. He's a very 2020s kind of player.

I'm not advocating we pick Cooley - I'm leaning towards betting on the upside of Slaf or Jiricek because we can afford to take that risk - but c'mon now. He could easily shift to wing and be a much more impactful player than Slafkovsky simply because his skillset is more valuable/relevant.

Rarity =/= value. I don't give a shit if a guy is a unicorn, I care if he gets results.

I read that about Jack more than a few times. So I'm going to vote hard no on this one.

Some guys are just pure centers and shifting them away detracts so much from their natural abilities and true potential that it doesn't make sense trying to do so.

What I could see happening however is dangling that carrot to the highest bidder. Someone with with an embarrassment of riches yet whose window has either just opened or is very slowly starting to close. Carolina? Colorado? Tampa? Idk.

 

[Tretyak 20]

Common denominator between Lafreniere and Kakko is passable but not noteworthy skating. I think Slaf moves better than both of those guys and has more playmaking chops but if you take a look at the goals tonight - TB-TOR, McDavid's insurance goal, etc. - far more offense is being generated off the rush than ever.

The best players in the game skate well and create in transition. The high event game seems to be the way the league is headed, especially if you have a new commissioner trying to sell the game to a new generation. You might like the Jagr-isms in Slafkovsky's game - I certainly do - but it's not necessarily as useful as it was, despite whatever narrative people here want to emphasize because they grew up on that brand of hockey. In a game that's getting called tighter and tighter, where high end vision and skating are only growing in importance relative to the eternal emphasis on battling along the walls and below the goal line, I could see why a team like us would take Cooley. He does everything fast - his hands and skating are for sure faster than Slaf and I'd argue he's a much better transition guy. He's a very 2020s kind of player.

I'm not advocating we pick Cooley - I'm leaning towards betting on the upside of Slaf or Jiricek because we can afford to take that risk - but c'mon now. He could easily shift to wing and be a much more impactful player than Slafkovsky simply because his skillset is more valuable/relevant.

Rarity =/= value. I don't give a shit if a guy is a unicorn, I care if he gets results.

Just the other day Slafkovsky made an oulet pass that created a goal off the rush. He certainly has enough skating and stickhandling skill to create offense off the rush. And if you think Jagr didn't create offense off the rush, then you're too young to remember Jagr in his prime.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

Nichushkin just put up a 69 pt pace while being one of the very best two way play driving wings in the league. If you can get something like this from when he's 22-32 I'd be more than pleased. That's like a Bratt level player and I would not mind getting a Bratt level player 2OA in this draft. Personally I just don't know if he reaches that level.

Wait, wait, wait.

I had a whole conversation vaguely knowing what I was talking about but without looking up his career stats.

This guy didn't come close to touching .5 ppg until he was 26 and playing on the best team in the league? And by not close to touching I mean he scored 10 goals last year and 13 the one prior.

Want to know how many he scored in 57 games as a 23 y/o? 0. Yes, 0.

So what's your WAR percentile when he's playing with Mackinnon mean again? Because I'm guessing Zacha wouldn't do worse. He actually hasn't any other step of the way in his career given their age.

Not that I'm defending Zacha as I'm pretty over him as well. I'm just shocked at how I actually wanted this guy and just how bad he's been. You know, when he's not on the best team in the league.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

So we just have to wait until the 23-24 season for Zacha's 26 year old breakout.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

So we just have to wait until the 23-24 season for Zacha's 26 year old breakout.

Hopefully I'll have a name change by then.

Though I still can't recall him scoring 0 goals or at least not flirting with .4 or .5 ppg in his 20's on some of the worst teams in the league.

But WAR.

 

[glenwo2]

"Elite wingers are taken at the top of the draft"

Shots fired at Bratt apparently not elite

To be fair, when Bratt first made the team back in his rookie year, he was very good but not elite at that point.

What an f'n steal he's been, though. Pretty much negated the McLeod selection.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Wait, wait, wait.

I had a whole conversation vaguely knowing what I was talking about but without looking up his career stats.

This guy didn't come close to touching .5 ppg until he was 26 and playing on the best team in the league? And by not close to touching I mean he scored 10 goals last year and 13 the one prior.

Want to know how many he scored in 57 games as a 23 y/o? 0. Yes, 0.

So what's your WAR percentile when he's playing with Mackinnon mean again? Because I'm guessing Zacha wouldn't do worse. He actually hasn't any other step of the way in his career given their age.

Not that I'm defending Zacha as I'm pretty over him as well. I'm just shocked at how I actually wanted this guy and just how bad he's been. You know, when he's not on the best team in the league.

So you’ve been clamoring for this player for months and apparently have absolutely no clue about why he is so valuable. The “analytics community” has been saying he’s a two way stud since he’s been on Colorado — before his production popped and people like you that only seem to pay attention to points started to notice.

I seem to remember a prominent stat guy saying he deserved the Selke and was one of the most valuable players in the league well before the counting stats came. Anti-stat radicals love to dunk on “nerds” when they tout players that don’t pan out, maybe give some credit here?

 

[BurntToast]

While this draft may lack a “generational talent”, I actually think there will be many useful players found throughout the first 3 rounds (and beyond). I also feel 1-5 is only slightly better than 6-12. Lastly, It will also be interesting to see how the Russian prospects are treated.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

So you’ve been clamoring for this player for months and apparently have absolutely no clue about why he is so valuable. The “analytics community” has been saying he’s a two way stud since he’s been on Colorado — before his production popped and people like you that only seem to pay attention to points started to notice.

I seem to remember a prominent stat guy saying he deserved the Selke and was one of the most valuable players in the league well before the counting stats came. Anti-stat radicals love to dunk on “nerds” when they tout players that don’t pan out, maybe give some credit here?

I've been clamoring for Valeri for months? Show your work.

I didn't call anyone a nerd. I do however follow at least this board pretty frequently and will say with absolute conviction that him hunting a stud elk is the nearest his name will ever have the letters e l and k associated with his name. Where did you come up with the selke thing? Some random blog?

You're not only mistaken but obviously confusing me with another poster.

Edit, since you seem to be upset. I don't consider nerds to be assholes. I rather enjoy them generally. Consider myself to be one on plenty of subjects. Analytics guys in hockey however can, get a good job I guess.

I'll leave you with this. Why do you suppose the NFL barely gives a f*** about analytics?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I've been clamoring for Valeri for months? Show your work.

I didn't call anyone a nerd. I do however follow at least this board pretty frequently and will say with absolute conviction that him hunting a stud elk is the nearest his name will ever have the letters e l and k associated with his name. Where did you come up with the selke thing? Some random blog?

You're not only mistaken but obviously confusing me with another poster.

I have to take the L, I thought I was responding to someone else. My bad.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

I have to take the L, I thought I was responding to someone else. My bad.

Always willing to tip my hat to a man willing to shake a hand.

Aka, I have no likes available.