Devils Team Discussion (team/player news and notes) ‎2015 offseason IX

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R8Devs

1-5-6-12
Nov 20, 2010
21,147
4,600
New Jersey
Next year I'm hoping the Devils sign Boedker as a replacement for Elias' production/role. Devils could be attractive due to $$$$ and location. I don't think many teams could offer a contract like the Devils can to Boedker and it won't be that much a risk because he'd be only around early thirties at the end of the deal. That along with another top prospect(Matthews/Pujuljarvi/Laine/Tkachuk) would help the top 6 situation going forward.
 

Classic Devil

Spirit of 1988
Dec 23, 2003
39,359
4,069
Columbus, Ohio
Next year I'm hoping the Devils sign Boedker as a replacement for Elias' production/role. Devils could be attractive due to $$$$ and location. I don't think many teams could offer a contract like the Devils can to Boedker and it won't be that much a risk because he'd be only around early thirties at the end of the deal. That along with another top prospect(Matthews/Pujuljarvi/Laine/Tkachuk) would help the top 6 situation going forward.
Boedker would be a very nice get.
 

Emperoreddy

Show Me What You Got!
Apr 13, 2010
132,352
78,664
New Jersey, Exit 16E
This kind of hits the nail on the head in my opinion. Moderation is probably the best approach at this point. We do need to get better in the now since the Devils were objectively and painfully pathetic last year (so a move to improve the team now doesn't necessarily mean Shero has lost his mind and is making a wild bid for the Cup or even the playoffs, just possibly some offensive respectability/mediocrity), but we are definitely in no position to be making the type of trades NYR, for example, did to acquire Yandle.

We do need to try to get better now since losing a ton is probably not good for the development or psyche of our young players, but we also can't sacrifice important young assets because our best chance at another Cup is definitely in the future more than the present for older veterans who can only be really useful to us in the here and now. It's a tricky process. Hopefully Shero and his front office can execute it well.

No one should be in that position. That Yandle trade was bad.

Thing is even if plans do fail you still have to have one and you have to have a long term one. We were the oldest team in the league with few "Band-aid" not being able to get us even to the playoffs.

A direction shift makes sense in my mind and we are now flush with younger guys who are worth taking a look at (even if odds are none are top 6 guys). We need to take stock with what we have are start getting some forward momentum going.

Even if it means punting the season. I rather punt with a plan then just be old and suck like last year.

And I agree with Shero on cutting ties with older guys. There are only so many spots on the team and it makes more sense to me to let the younger guys we have right for those spots over gifting it to a short term older guy that will in no way help the team when we are good again (because we would still suck if we resigned Gomez and Bernier)
 

ForeverJerseyGirl

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
11,854
35
New Jersey
I've always thought this losing culture argument is overblown. Winning, talented players breed a winning culture not the other way around. If you look at other turnarounds in sports, a lot of the young talent that makes up the next winning core(s) have had to come up in adverse circumstances and they were not damaged by the losing seasons.

I think there's evidence to argue either way. Accepting dismal failure in the hope of eventually winning in hockey has mixed results. You have the dazzling successes like Chicago (going from picking Kane first overall in 2007 to winning a Cup in 2010, very rapid turnaround) and the stuck on the treadmill case like Edmonton as the extremes. Then you have middle of the pack cases like Florida, where some years they make the playoffs and other years they are drafting in the top five.

I think there are times when winning, talented players have to overcome a losing culture to create a winning one, but I also believe that there are times when winning, talented players develop because of a winning culture that is in place that they pick up. For instance, I don't know if Datsyuk would have been as great a player as he is if he was surrounded by players who had an attitude like "Shucks, we finished bottom five in the league again. Let's go play golf in our long off-season." Because I do think that the first overalls in Edmonton have been damaged by the organizational philosophy that was all but written in the walls up there in recent years that "It's okay to stink because we'll get a shiny eighteen year old prodigy as a reward for being terrible, and we can depend on him to drag us out of the hole we're in." That's an attitude where losing is embraced over winning, and that is going to shape culture and players' psyches in my opinion.

I think most experts in the psychology of human development would say that experiencing success (and gaining confidence from that) is as important as overcoming challenges (and getting resiliency from that) in developing well. Some very high draft picks are mentally tough enough and physically talented enough that they can overcome being developed in a culture that isn't conducive to success, but I would hardly encourage such a culture or advocate it as the best way to sustained success, which in my opinion is better related to a focus on working hard to the best of one's abilities and not being okay with failure. When young players are put in an environment where there is a lot of losing, I have difficulty believing that it doesn't impact them negatively, because they are probably either going to accept/embrace losing as a defense mechanism against the pain/shame of losing all the time, or else they are going to experience extreme frustration, which young people aren't always the most mentally and emotionally equipped to handle.

If the Devils are picking bottom five again, I'll deal with it (and be grateful for whoever we can get where we pick, since they will be useful), but I'm not going to cheer for losses. I'd rather finish just outside the playoffs and have a weak first round pick than finish bottom five again and get the better draft pick. Sometimes failure can't be avoided but I wouldn't embrace it as a pathway to success.
 

SpeakingOfTheDevils

Devils Advocate
Jan 22, 2010
15,659
7,940
Philadelphia, PA
I think there's evidence to argue either way. Accepting dismal failure in the hope of eventually winning in hockey has mixed results. You have the dazzling successes like Chicago (going from picking Kane first overall in 2007 to winning a Cup in 2010, very rapid turnaround) and the stuck on the treadmill case like Edmonton as the extremes. Then you have middle of the pack cases like Florida, where some years they make the playoffs and other years they are drafting in the top five.

I think there are times when winning, talented players have to overcome a losing culture to create a winning one, but I also believe that there are times when winning, talented players develop because of a winning culture that is in place that they pick up. For instance, I don't know if Datsyuk would have been as great a player as he is if he was surrounded by players who had an attitude like "Shucks, we finished bottom five in the league again. Let's go play golf in our long off-season." Because I do think that the first overalls in Edmonton have been damaged by the organizational philosophy that was all but written in the walls up there in recent years that "It's okay to stink because we'll get a shiny eighteen year old prodigy as a reward for being terrible, and we can depend on him to drag us out of the hole we're in." That's an attitude where losing is embraced over winning, and that is going to shape culture and players' psyches in my opinion.

I think most experts in the psychology of human development would say that experiencing success (and gaining confidence from that) is as important as overcoming challenges (and getting resiliency from that) in developing well. Some very high draft picks are mentally tough enough and physically talented enough that they can overcome being developed in a culture that isn't conducive to success, but I would hardly encourage such a culture or advocate it as the best way to sustained success, which in my opinion is better related to a focus on working hard to the best of one's abilities and not being okay with failure. When young players are put in an environment where there is a lot of losing, I have difficulty believing that it doesn't impact them negatively, because they are probably either going to accept/embrace losing as a defense mechanism against the pain/shame of losing all the time, or else they are going to experience extreme frustration, which young people aren't always the most mentally and emotionally equipped to handle.

If the Devils are picking bottom five again, I'll deal with it (and be grateful for whoever we can get where we pick, since they will be useful), but I'm not going to cheer for losses. I'd rather finish just outside the playoffs and have a weak first round pick than finish bottom five again and get the better draft pick. Sometimes failure can't be avoided but I wouldn't embrace it as a pathway to success.

This is a very eloquent, thoughtful post, and I think you hit the nail square on the head.

I agree completely.
 

ForeverJerseyGirl

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
11,854
35
New Jersey
No one should be in that position. That Yandle trade was bad.

Thing is even if plans do fail you still have to have one and you have to have a long term one. We were the oldest team in the league with few "Band-aid" not being able to get us even to the playoffs.

A direction shift makes sense in my mind and we are now flush with younger guys who are worth taking a look at (even if odds are none are top 6 guys). We need to take stock with what we have are start getting some forward momentum going.

Even if it means punting the season. I rather punt with a plan then just be old and suck like last year.

And I agree with Shero on cutting ties with older guys. There are only so many spots on the team and it makes more sense to me to let the younger guys we have right for those spots over gifting it to a short term older guy that will in no way help the team when we are good again (because we would still suck if we resigned Gomez and Bernier)

The Yandle trade was probably poor example, since you're right that it really is a bad deal regardless of team position, but I was trying to say that the Devils aren't in a position like NYR where we can think about sacrificing our future to find the missing piece needed to win a Cup. We aren't contenders, so we shouldn't be making those kind of trades. I think everyone agrees on that.

I just feel that people are taking a lot of extreme positions here, because as I said, you can look to improve a team in the present without damaging the future. Those opportunities aren't many, but they do exist. A good example is the Palmieri trade. It helps us now and in the future. The way some people around here are starting to talk, it sounds like they don't want to improve at all now, and expect to just suddenly leap to success in the future without any gradual improvement. I don't think that's really possible. I think we need to take some steps forward every year with the ultimate goal being getting back to contender status. I don't expect Shero to have done more in this regard than he did since he acquired Palmieri and tried to get his hands on Saad, but I expect that he will continue to look for those opportunities to improve the team in the present and in the future, since those objectives don't need to be mutually exclusive.

A direction shift was needed, although I think we have to be careful about not swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. Youth is an asset, but it shouldn't be the only consideration. For instance, I would have kept Gomez around because he was really the only player on our roster who was a playmaker. I don't know who is going to fill that void on the team now, and the absence of a playmaker could potentially hurt Boucher's development. We still would have sucked with Gomez but not having a playmaker like Gomez could effect the Devils' ability to really evaluate Boucher, since he's the type of player who's not likely to shine without a playmaker, and the Devils don't have one now that Gomez isn't here.

Now if we can bring in a young playmaker who can fill the role Gomez did, that's great. Trouble is, I don't see the young guy who can fill that playmaking void, so we've got a hole in the roster that I don't think will be filled. That's a decision that I think will hurt the team, and potentially stunt someone like Boucher's development at the NHL level. The baby can be thrown out with the dirty bathwater. The Devils are going to have to be careful about that.

Basically, I think Shero has the right idea about things in general, and he was definitely correct to cut a lot of the ties with the old guys that he did, but there are times when I think he has gone too far with relying on youth (especially when there isn't a young player who really looks like they can fill an important role on the roster that the older guy did) and expelling the veterans. However, my argument is more with the people who want to see us do badly in order to do better or who believe that we shouldn't try to improve this team now. I respect what Shero is trying to do because I don't think he is operating that way, even if I don't support everything he's done (nor do I agree with all that Lou did, for the record). My first post on this topic today probably sums up my perspective on what Shero has done best. I think it is pretty moderate (not unquestionably supportive of Shero, but certainly willing to believe in his vision).

A few years from now, we'll see where all this ends up. I'm sure we'd all like for it to end in success.
 

MoonDragn

Registered User
Mar 28, 2007
9,528
45
Maryland
Does anyone remember another Undrafted player who tore it up in Albany when he was 25?

Paul Thompson is only 26, not 27. Also Undrafted. While he didn't score as much as our previous Undrafted wonder I think he can still be very useful in a bottom 6 role for us. Especially because we lack depth in RW and he is one.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
72,705
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Does anyone remember another Undrafted player who tore it up in Albany when he was 25?

Paul Thompson is only 26, not 27. Also Undrafted. While he didn't score as much as our previous Undrafted wonder I think he can still be very useful in a bottom 6 role for us. Especially because we lack depth in RW and he is one.

he turns 27 pretty soon after the season starts.

just not an NHL player.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
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If he is never given a chance, he won't be one. That other player btw, was John Madden, who ended up being very important for our team.

If you were GM, you would have never given him a chance.

that was nearly 20 years ago. not to mention John Madden put up nearly 100 points for Albany one season and had a specific set of skills.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,175
33,341
Last year we were begging them to give Thompson a chance and now he's junk lol, he'll be one of many players that gets a chance in camp to win a job.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
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excuse me for not getting excited over a soon to be 27 year old with a whopping 127 career points in 273 AHL games.
 

MoonDragn

Registered User
Mar 28, 2007
9,528
45
Maryland
that was nearly 20 years ago. not to mention John Madden put up nearly 100 points for Albany one season and had a specific set of skills.

Paul Thompson was a Hoby Award Finalist and Hockey East player of the year in 2010-2011. I don't know what happened with the baby Penguins but he did very well last year in our camp and then in Albany.

Since you have no idea what happened to his development, I think making these general broad sweeping comments about him is just ignorant.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
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Paul Thompson was a Hoby Award Finalist and Hockey East player of the year in 2010-2011. I don't know what happened with the baby Penguins but he did very well last year in our camp and then in Albany.

Since you have no idea what happened to his development, I think making these general broad sweeping comments about him is just ignorant.

hes developed. he isn't a prospect anymore. he is what he is.

you talk about broad sweeping comments and then bring up John Madden as if it has anything to do with anything.
 

MoonDragn

Registered User
Mar 28, 2007
9,528
45
Maryland
hes developed. he isn't a prospect anymore. he is what he is.

you talk about broad sweeping comments and then bring up John Madden as if it has anything to do with anything.

I brought up Madden because he was undrafted and also older than other prospects in the system at the time. By your definition he wouldn't have been considered a prospect either. A few years older is nothing in your 20s. Some people peak later than others.
 

Bleedred

#FIREDAVEROGALSKI
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
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I think Thompson gets jocked just because of his huge AHL season last year.

I don't understand why really, aside from the fact that we need offense.

No one ever jocked Joe Whitney like this all those years he's been lighting up the AHL. And Joe Whitney is the same age as Thompson, which means that he was quite a few years younger when he first started lighting it up in the A.
 

SpeakingOfTheDevils

Devils Advocate
Jan 22, 2010
15,659
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Philadelphia, PA
I also don't see anything overly special in Paul Thompson.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't get a look, but let's not expect much here.

I see a lot more upside in our other rather new undrafted forward: Blandisi.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,175
33,341
Paul Thompson was a Hoby Award Finalist and Hockey East player of the year in 2010-2011. I don't know what happened with the baby Penguins but he did very well last year in our camp and then in Albany.

Ironically that's the reason I think he doesn't have much of a chance to win a spot with the Devils...because the regime did have him and he didn't play well for Hynes. He'll get an opportunity but unless something's dramatically changed in his game the last two years he'll probably be on the outside looking in.

I also don't see anything overly special in Paul Thompson.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't get a look, but let's not expect much here.

I see a lot more upside in our other rather new undrafted forward: Blandisi.

Well Blandisi IS only 21...and we might be jumping the shark a bit thinking he can win a spot straight out of the OHL without any AHL time. But he'll get an opportunity too.
 

MichaelJ

Registered User
May 20, 2013
7,874
766
I think there's evidence to argue either way. Accepting dismal failure in the hope of eventually winning in hockey has mixed results. You have the dazzling successes like Chicago (going from picking Kane first overall in 2007 to winning a Cup in 2010, very rapid turnaround) and the stuck on the treadmill case like Edmonton as the extremes. Then you have middle of the pack cases like Florida, where some years they make the playoffs and other years they are drafting in the top five.

I think there are times when winning, talented players have to overcome a losing culture to create a winning one, but I also believe that there are times when winning, talented players develop because of a winning culture that is in place that they pick up. For instance, I don't know if Datsyuk would have been as great a player as he is if he was surrounded by players who had an attitude like "Shucks, we finished bottom five in the league again. Let's go play golf in our long off-season." Because I do think that the first overalls in Edmonton have been damaged by the organizational philosophy that was all but written in the walls up there in recent years that "It's okay to stink because we'll get a shiny eighteen year old prodigy as a reward for being terrible, and we can depend on him to drag us out of the hole we're in." That's an attitude where losing is embraced over winning, and that is going to shape culture and players' psyches in my opinion.

I think most experts in the psychology of human development would say that experiencing success (and gaining confidence from that) is as important as overcoming challenges (and getting resiliency from that) in developing well. Some very high draft picks are mentally tough enough and physically talented enough that they can overcome being developed in a culture that isn't conducive to success, but I would hardly encourage such a culture or advocate it as the best way to sustained success, which in my opinion is better related to a focus on working hard to the best of one's abilities and not being okay with failure. When young players are put in an environment where there is a lot of losing, I have difficulty believing that it doesn't impact them negatively, because they are probably either going to accept/embrace losing as a defense mechanism against the pain/shame of losing all the time, or else they are going to experience extreme frustration, which young people aren't always the most mentally and emotionally equipped to handle.

If the Devils are picking bottom five again, I'll deal with it (and be grateful for whoever we can get where we pick, since they will be useful), but I'm not going to cheer for losses. I'd rather finish just outside the playoffs and have a weak first round pick than finish bottom five again and get the better draft pick. Sometimes failure can't be avoided but I wouldn't embrace it as a pathway to success.


Baseball is obviously another sport, but I've just watched them go from an abysmal losing culture to a winning one. It took patience and understanding that these things take time to work themselves out. The Matt Harveys and Jacob deGroms didn't suffer because the teams around them stunk, their talent was enough to bring them their own success and gave the team something to build on. I'm not concerned about the 'fragile psyches' of young players...sometimes an organization needs to take its medicine, otherwise it can result in being mired in mediocrity.
 

NJDevs26

Once upon a time...
Mar 21, 2007
68,175
33,341
I don't know if this is important enough for its own thread (the Tlusty signing is at least) but there's also this:

New Jersey Devils ‏@NHLDevils 3m3 minutes ago
Forward Tyler Kennedy will be attending #NJDevils training camp as a PTO.
 

MoonDragn

Registered User
Mar 28, 2007
9,528
45
Maryland
Ironically that's the reason I think he doesn't have much of a chance to win a spot with the Devils...because the regime did have him and he didn't play well for Hynes. He'll get an opportunity but unless something's dramatically changed in his game the last two years he'll probably be on the outside looking in.

Hynes seems to think well of him:

You coached Paul Thompson in the AHL with Wilkes-Barre/Scranton. What happened to him in 2013-14 that he struggled so much (eight goals, seven assists in 69 games) and your team traded him and then what was back this past season with Albany that he finished second in the AHL with 33 goals?

“Paul is a real quality player. If you look at a player that's progressed since he turned pro. He came out of UNH (University of New Hampshire) and over the course of his time in the American League, he really became stronger. He always had the offensive ability and could score goals, but he learned how to play in hard areas of the ice consistently. He added a little bit of grit to his game, consistency to his game and I think that his maturity as a player really kind of came that you saw what he can do now in the pro game because he really developed over a three-year period.â€
 

Bleedred

#FIREDAVEROGALSKI
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
132,131
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YUCK! We apparently sent out a PTO to Mr Piggy.

At least it's just a PTO and not an actual contract. He stunk something fierce with the Sharks both years there.

On the upside though, he was a little bit better there last year than his first year there, he played 2.5 less the amount of games last season though.

And he did have injury problems too.
 

goonybird

Young boy expert
Jul 9, 2015
4,796
3,263
using the Hobey Baker award to project success is terrible even for those who win it let alone those who don't.
 

Burner Account

Registered User
Feb 14, 2008
37,418
1,744
YUCK! We apparently sent out a PTO to Mr Piggy.

At least it's just a PTO and not an actual contract. He stunk something fierce with the Sharks both years there.

On the upside though, he was a little bit better there last year than his first year there, he played 2.5 less the amount of games last season though.

And he did have injury problems too.

He is an upgrade.
 
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