Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXIV

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Eggtimer

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Like someone has said previously , Smith makes sense if he can out produce the goals and chances he gives up but he doesn’t and I don’t think he can. He won’t see the PP any time in the next 7-8 years…. With Luke and Hamilton and possible Severson here for a while. Also Shakir olus if we draft one of Jiricek or Nemec and there simply is no room on the PP and Smith sucks defensively.
Unless he makes massive improvements on his defensive game , I can’t see him beig an upgrade on who we have . Maybe for now while the kids are inexperienced but I dont thnk that will last and others will or should pas him on the depth chart.
 

JK3

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I forgot about Mukhamadullin, add him to that list of rangy guys that can skate and move the puck, don't see much of a future for Smith here if a few of these guys stick.
 
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Blender

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I forgot about Mukhamadullin, add him to that list of rangy guys that can skate and move the puck, don't see much of a future for Smith here if a few of these guys stick.
I don't either. Smith is smaller and a worse skater than all of these guys. If even 1 or 2 of them work out, he's out of a spot.
 
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SteveCangialosi123

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I really don’t want to be the “Ty Smith defender” on here considering I’ve said he’s sucked all year and wanted him in the AHL…but I just think we need to give him another chance next year. If a good value trade is there, sure, go for it. But I just don’t have a problem with him being here next year. He will be the #3 LD if he is here and we have 2 guys that may be ready if he stinks again.
 

Blender

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I really don’t want to be the “Ty Smith defender” on here considering I’ve said he’s sucked all year and wanted him in the AHL…but I just think we need to give him another chance next year. If a good value trade is there, sure, go for it. But I just don’t have a problem with him being here next year. He will be the #3 LD if he is here and we have 2 guys that may be ready if he stinks again.
I'm fine with giving him chances, I just think he'll get forced out if some of these guys work out for us.
 

JK3

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I really don’t want to be the “Ty Smith defender” on here considering I’ve said he’s sucked all year and wanted him in the AHL…but I just think we need to give him another chance next year. If a good value trade is there, sure, go for it. But I just don’t have a problem with him being here next year. He will be the #3 LD if he is here and we have 2 guys that may be ready if he stinks again.
He’ll get another shot next year, some of these guys aren’t quite ready yet anyway. It’s going to be an interesting camp for sure though.
 

Captain3rdLine

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I really don’t want to be the “Ty Smith defender” on here considering I’ve said he’s sucked all year and wanted him in the AHL…but I just think we need to give him another chance next year. If a good value trade is there, sure, go for it. But I just don’t have a problem with him being here next year. He will be the #3 LD if he is here and we have 2 guys that may be ready if he stinks again.
Fair enough. But if those 2 guys finish strong this season and then look better than him in camp, does he deserve to start the season as the #3 LD above them? I don’t think so. Bahl has out performed him and he should have to win that spot back IMO.

That’s without getting into who’s a better stylistic fit.
 
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Captain3rdLine

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He’ll get another shot next year, some of these guys aren’t quite ready yet anyway. It’s going to be an interesting camp for sure though.
I think Bahl and Okhotiuk are ready. Okhotiuk looked good in camp and has consistently been good in the AHL. I thought he deserved a call up quite a while ago before Bahl and I’m pretty sure other people on here did too. Bahl was always a solid prospect and has shown well in the NHL over the last 9-10 games.
 
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Bad Goalie

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They tried to get him Fitz must have felt the ask was too high....The risk was high and still is with Tank we don't need him at his age and what he will cost....Glad Fitz passed on him wasn't meant to be....
It's easy to rationalize not needing him. However, every team with rising star power in their youth filled roster has a couple of guys who are still productive, but have played the game very successfully and have a lot to offer the kids. The Devils have none of this and NO, coaches don't count. They need those guys on the bench, on the ice, in the room, and nearby in the community.

Tank is also Russian. Many NHL teams have trouble getting their Russian selections to leave the mother land. Having veteran Russian guys in house is a very valuable asset to the franchise. The language barrier is a big drawback until they can get a grasp of English. Tarasenko would have checked off all of those recipe ingredients to the letter.
 
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Triumph

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I really don’t want to be the “Ty Smith defender” on here considering I’ve said he’s sucked all year and wanted him in the AHL…but I just think we need to give him another chance next year. If a good value trade is there, sure, go for it. But I just don’t have a problem with him being here next year. He will be the #3 LD if he is here and we have 2 guys that may be ready if he stinks again.

If the Devils had a bunch of defensive RHDs who needed puck support, then sure, but they don't have that. They cannot have this version of Ty Smith on the team next year, so they have to be damn sure that he can make the team out of camp.
 

JK3

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I think Bahl and Okhotiuk are ready. Okhotiuk looked good in camp and has consistently been good in the AHL. I thought he deserved a call up quite a while ago before Bahl and I’m pretty sure other people on here did too. Bahl was always a solid prospect and has shown well in the NHL over the last 9-10 games.
I wish they would have been called up sooner so we could’ve gotten a longer look at them.

They should have done it when Smith was struggling REALLY bad for a while. He has been much better lately but still not great. He had a great rookie year, maybe he can get back there but he could be easily left in the dust quickly.
 
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Rydev

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Im all for giving Ty a second chance as well.. but is it out of necessity or just pure love for the player we chose 17th overall in 2018?

Perhaps were being a bit too nice to Ty because if we are to be realistic, where does he fit long-term even if he goes back to his rookie-year form next season?

When we drafted Ty, the only defenseman that was in the organization thats here now was Damon Severson. Weve acquired Graves Siegenthaler Hamilton Bahl Ohkotyuk Mukhamadullin Hughes etc.. all after we drafted Ty.

So even if you expected a bounce back - would we really want him in a top-4 position? Is Ty Smith the type of player you want on your bottom pair with not much PP time? And with that in mind do we really want to wait until his value is even lower than it is now?

The argument could be made to another team that we went and acquired too many dmen before Ty could breakout, and now hes logjammed. But if you wait until after next season that argument begins to lose weight and Ty's potential will come into question

Its an interesting predicament unlike Zacha where, when he was coming up, there was nobody in front of him and so being given a roster spot each year to prove himself was easy. With Ty thats clearly not the case and one Fitzgerald will have to think long and hard about.

Trading him after 2023 would also require the acquiring team to sign him to a deal when he hasn't played for them yet. Id reckon if you keep Ty Smith this offseason then you're of the mindset that you like him long-term.
 
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Captain3rdLine

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I wish they would have been called up sooner so we could’ve gotten a longer look at them.

They should have done it when Smith was struggling REALLY bad for a while. He has been much better lately but still not great. He had a great rookie year, maybe he can get back there but he could be easily left in the dust quickly.
But even in his strong rookie season he was poor defensively. People just didn’t care much because he was running the top powerplay and putting up points. He’s not gonna run the top powerplay with Severson and Dougie here and he’s not very valuable to this team otherwise with his poor defensive game even if he’s playing like he did in his rookie season.
 

SteveCangialosi123

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If the Devils had a bunch of defensive RHDs who needed puck support, then sure, but they don't have that. They cannot have this version of Ty Smith on the team next year, so they have to be damn sure that he can make the team out of camp.
Without a doubt. If his skating still looks poor, he hasn’t gotten stronger, his decision making looks iffy…show him the door. Im sure these issues will be noticable in camp. I don’t doubt Fitz would hesitate given he probably loves Bahl’s size and Okhotyuk’s physicality.
 
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Captain3rdLine

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Im all for giving Ty a second chance as well.. but is it out of necessity or just pure love for the player we chose 17th overall in 2018?

Perhaps were being a bit too nice to Ty because if we are to be realistic, where does he fit long-term even if he goes back to his rookie-year form next season?

When we drafted Ty, the only defenseman that was in the organization thats here now was Damon Severson. Weve acquired Graves Siegenthaler Hamilton Bahl Ohkotyuk Mukhamadullin Hughes etc.. all after we drafted Ty.

So even if you expected a bounce back - would we really want him in a top-4 position? Is Ty Smith the type of player you want on your bottom pair with not much PP time? And with that in mind do we really want to wait until his value is even lower than it is now?

The argument could be made to another team that we went and acquired too many dmen before Ty could breakout, and now hes logjammed. But if you wait until after next season that argument begins to lose weight and Ty's potential will come into question

Its an interesting predicament unlike Zacha where, when he was coming up, there was nobody in front of him and so being given a roster spot each year to prove himself was easy. With Ty thats clearly not the case and one Fitzgerald will have to think long and hard about.

Trading him after 2023 would also require the acquiring team to sign him to a deal when he hasn't played for them yet. Id reckon if you keep Ty Smith this offseason then you're of the mindset that you like him long-term.
It certainly isn’t out of necessity. We have a a ton of young prospects who are a better fit even if Ty is playing like he did in his rookie season. He’s 4th in the pecking order right now with Okhotiuk on his heels and Hughes and Mukhammadullin coming after next season. He’s poor defensively and he’s not gonna be running our top powerplay or possibly even our second one any time soon.
 
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Rydev

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The only way I could see a legit long-term fit for Smith is if (and this is very specific) you told me we were not keeping Severson or Graves and Luke was going to play the right side.

That way youd have something along the lines of this down the road:
Siegenthaler - Hamilton
Smith - Hughes
Ohkotyuk/etc - ????

This would ultimately free up space on the PP2 for Smith since Hamilton would anchor the blueline on PP1 and Luke could play the side-boards on said PP1 (like his brother would do across from him)

But with how much affinity Severson has for the team and his possible willingness to take a sweetheart deal, im not sure how realistic that is to assume (him being moved). Though I doubt we keep Graves tbh.
 
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Rydev

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Or Ty Smith could transfer over to the right, maybe? Hmm???? Oh how easy thatd make this entire situation for us if he could..

Usually I reserve that title of offside-defenseman for amazing skaters, but maybe he has the smarts to make it work. Thatd for sure ease things a bit when it comes to his fit long-term.

And although Luke plays the right in college, Im not so certain thats a given for the NHL. So maybe if Ty is willing yo move over to make things work? He did play some RD in his rookie year IIRC.

Could run Hamilton-Hughes PP1 and Severson-Smith PP2.

In fact, just thinking about Ty on the right possibly working gets me giddy cause its the easiest solution possible in this entire scenario. Lets Jack and co keep their good friend and lets Ty open himself up for a more suited future for himself (unless he wants top-4 time, then he best step it up and replace Graves before next seasons end when Luke shows up)
 
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Captain3rdLine

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The only way I could see a legit long-term fit for Smith is if (and this is very specific) you told me we were not keeping Severson or Graves and Luke was going to play the right side.

That way youd have something along the lines of this down the road:
Siegenthaler - Hamilton
Smith - Hughes
Ohkotyuk/etc - ????

This would ultimately free up space on the PP2 for Smith since Hamilton would anchor the blueline on PP1 and Luke could play the side-boards on said PP1 (like his brother would do across from him)

But with how much affinity Severson has for the team and his possible willingness to take a sweetheart deal, im not sure how realistic that is to assume (him being moved). Though I doubt we keep Graves tbh.
This is assuming that he outplays the other young D including Bahl and Mukhammadullin. But even if you find room for Smith as a second defensmen on pp2 I don’t really think it’s worth it. He’s poor defensively and unless he’s running a top pp or you need him to run a second he’s not gonna offensively make up for his poor defensive game. We’re not gonna likely run two D on the top PP either and we shouldn’t.
The fact that you’re basically trying to make him fit or find a way in which he could fit says enough in my opinion.

We have a bunch of other young D who we can easily see where they fit in. Bahl and Okhotiuk could be strong, physical, defensively solid 4,5, or 6 defensmen who can move the puck decently. Mukhammadullin could be that or a bit better maybe. Smith could be our 3rd PP defensemen and get on the 2nd PP unit if things go right and Severson leaves and I’m not sure he’ll ever be good enough defensively for that to be worth it.
 
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NjdevilfanJim

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It's easy to rationalize not needing him. However, every team with rising star power in their youth filled roster has a couple of guys who are still productive, but have played the game very successfully and have a lot to offer the kids. The Devils have none of this and NO, coaches don't count. They need those guys on the bench, on the ice, in the room, and nearby in the community.

Tank is also Russian. Many NHL teams have trouble getting their Russian selections to leave the mother land. Having veteran Russian guys in house is a very valuable asset to the franchise. The language barrier is a big drawback until they can get a grasp of English. Tarasenko would have checked off all of those recipe ingredients to the letter.
With 20/20 hindsight you are correct but with not knowing what was the ask hard to make a call....All good points but we all have put up with a long overhaul and I think patience now is key...Hopefully Holtz makes the jump and this top pick this year will be a top six forward or a top four rhd.....Sometimes it's better not to make the trade and I think Armstrong wanted 2 pieces as a top prospect and first Tank not worth it unless he's the missing piece for a cup run not a team like ours....
 

Captain3rdLine

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Or Ty Smith could transfer over to the right, maybe? Hmm???? Oh how easy thatd make this entire situation for us if he could..

Usually I reserve that title of offside-defenseman for amazing skaters, but maybe he has the smarts to make it work. Thatd for sure ease things a bit when it comes to his fit long-term.

And although Luke plays the right in college, Im not so certain thats a given for the NHL. So maybe if Ty is willing yo move over to make things work? He did play some RD in his rookie year IIRC.

Could run Hamilton-Hughes PP1 and Severson-Smith PP2.

In fact, just thinking about Ty on the right possibly working gets me giddy cause its the easiest solution possible in this entire scenario. Lets Jack and co keep their good friend and lets Ty open himself up for a more suited future for himself (unless he wants top-4 time, then he best step it up and replace Graves before next seasons end when Luke shows up)
Two powerplays with two D?! No thanks. You’re reaching right now. The reality is we have two young D who look like better fits with what we already have and have been outperforming Ty. Given this trading Ty may not be a bad idea.
 

Triumph

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Okhotiuk and Bahl are capable puck movers though. Smith at his best is obviously better at that but he’s not as good defensively. We don’t want or need a defensively poor puck moving defensmen on our 3rd pairing. The only time that ever makes sense to me is if that guy is running a powerplay.

I'm not convinced that Okhotiuk or Bahl are 'capable puck movers'. The position of defenseman has changed in the last 15 years, and nobody who plays in the NHL besides real low-minute, low-leverage guys like Borowiecki are 'off the glass and out' types, so they will look better than your plodders of yore, but that doesn't make them capable. This was one area Smith excelled in last season that I don't think he has this season.
 

Rydev

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And with all that being said, Im guessing that Ty's competition in camp and during the season is more Ryan Graves than it is Nikita Ohkotyuk or Kevin Bahl.

Thats not to say Ty should be getting preferential treatment but instead that any realistic option for him involves taking over a top-4 LD spot. Or he switches sides and settles for a bottom pair role...

...because Ty on the 3LD long-term is about as realistic as me dating Mila Kunis. Shes just got too many other options who are bigger hunks than I am (shoutout Ashton Kutcher)
 
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McDuffz88

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The only way I could see a legit long-term fit for Smith is if (and this is very specific) you told me we were not keeping Severson or Graves and Luke was going to play the right side.

That way youd have something along the lines of this down the road:
Siegenthaler - Hamilton
Smith - Hughes
Ohkotyuk/etc - ????

This would ultimately free up space on the PP2 for Smith since Hamilton would anchor the blueline on PP1 and Luke could play the side-boards on said PP1 (like his brother would do across from him)

But with how much affinity Severson has for the team and his possible willingness to take a sweetheart deal, im not sure how realistic that is to assume (him being moved). Though I doubt we keep Graves tbh.
I don't think you can pair Smith with Hughes that just wouldn't work. Your basically pairing 2 offense minded players together. You ideally want to pair Hughes with a veteran who can play defense so Hughes can do his thing.
 

Captain3rdLine

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I'm not convinced that Okhotiuk or Bahl are 'capable puck movers'. The position of defenseman has changed in the last 15 years, and nobody who plays in the NHL besides real low-minute, low-leverage guys like Borowiecki are 'off the glass and out' types, so they will look better than your plodders of yore, but that doesn't make them capable. This was one area Smith excelled in last season that I don't think he has this season.
They really are though. Go watch all of Okhotiuk shifts last night. Lots of nice outlet passes. Same as when he was in the AHL. Bahl is a solid puck mover too.
 
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