Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[HBK27]

i refuse to believe you didn’t know his intent when he signed it. “some doubt” that he would keep playing to age 42 lmao.

i never said he was lying about his condition, i’m saying he didn’t want to go through treatments at that age for $1M. which i actually can understand, but pretending this was one big coincidence (and pretending the hawks weren’t literally over the salary cap limit when he announced it) has to be some kind of willful ignorance.

I'm sure there was intent that he likely doesn't finish out his contract when it was signed, but that's different then thinking "yeah, I'm definitely retiring after the 2016-2017 season" when he signed the contract in 2009. Hossa's contract, like many others signed at the time, had the salary drop to the point that it made sense that they could walk away from it any of those last few years.

He also didn't have to go through treatments to get his $4M salary in 2016-2017 as there's no reason he couldn't have gone on LTIR prior to that season as well. You keep acting like he was willing to do so just for the money, but he still would've gotten paid either way - you keep failing to acknowledge this.

 

[devilsblood]

Okay so maybe the Johnsson one he had was a better idea. Just not sure there’s enough in that for them unless they’ve lost hope with Vrana and like Blackwood. Even if they consider Johnsson a serviceable NHL player which they may, he’s a negative and essentially a dump. They were prepared to lose Vrana for free but that was likely due to the cap hit.
Interesting idea.

This seems kind of possible.

We'd probably have to add, but I just wouldn't use Shara. Not for a guy who may not play.

 

[NJDfan86]

Someone who no longer believes in Nedelkovic and is trying to get rid of Vrana perhaps. And was recently paid a visit by the devils.

Imagine this.

To Detroit:
Mackenzie Blackwood
Yegor Sharangovich

To New Jersey:
Jakob Vrana (with confidence that he’s healthy)

Vrana and Sharangovich produce points at almost the exact same rate - Sharangovich costs half as much, has more team control remaining, has been far more durable the past few years, and plays on the PK.

Why would we make that trade?

 

[devilsblood]

Vrana and Sharangovich produce points at almost the exact same rate - Sharangovich costs half as much, has more team control remaining, has been far more durable the past few years, and plays on the PK.

Why would we make that trade?

There's probably more offensive ability there. But you are right, not that much more in terms of career production.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

Vrana and Sharangovich produce points at almost the exact same rate - Sharangovich costs half as much, has more team control remaining, has been far more durable the past few years, and plays on the PK.

Why would we make that trade?

To cap strapped NHL teams like the Devils players like Shara that can play up and down the lineup with $2 mil cap hits are valuable. You do not trade him for a mystery box

 

[Blackjack]

Vrana and Sharangovich produce points at almost the exact same rate - Sharangovich costs half as much, has more team control remaining, has been far more durable the past few years, and plays on the PK.

Why would we make that trade?

Excuse me?

 

[NJDfan86]

Excuse me?

Vrana - .58 ppg
Shara - .55 ppg

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Vrana and Sharangovich produce points at almost the exact same rate - Sharangovich costs half as much, has more team control remaining, has been far more durable the past few years, and plays on the PK.

Why would we make that trade?

First, I’ve already conceded that they would have to add and we probably wouldn’t do it because of the issues and durability.

But still that’s just not remotely true.

Since coming into the league. Sharangovich has produced at a 24 goal and 45 point rate. Since then Vrana has produced at a 35 goal and 60 point rate. Quite a bit better and he’s more skilled and a more impactful player. When healthy he’s a legitimate top line winger. In Detroit he has 22 goals and 32 points in 37 games. The issue as mentioned has been his durability. So yes probably shouldn’t make that trade. But they don’t produce the same rate at all and Vrana is much more impactful.

Vrana - .58 ppg
Shara - .55 ppg

You can’t be serious

 

[Blackjack]

Vrana - .58 ppg
Shara - .55 ppg

Lol, okay dude.

 

[NJDfan86]

First, I’ve already conceded that they would have to add and we probably wouldn’t do it because of the issues and durability.

But still that’s just not remotely true.

Since coming into the league. Sharangovich has produced at a 24 goal and 45 point rate. Since then Vrana has produced at a 35 goal and 60 point rate. Quite a bit better and he’s more skilled and a more impactful player. When healthy he’s a legitimate top line winger. In Detroit he has 22 goals and 32 points in 37 games. The issue as mentioned has been his durability. So yes probably shouldn’t make that trade. But they don’t produced at all the same rate and Vrana is much more impactful.


You can’t be serious

You are right, let's just ignore the totality of their careers thus far and focus on select timeframes. Vrana is shooting 21% in the bits and pieces he has played with Detroit thus far, that is why his numbers look better now.

 

[Blackjack]

I mean, just make the durability argument, that’s totally valid and I’d probably agree with it. Sharangovich is a good middle six producer and he stays on the ice. I like Shara, no need to twist statistics to pretend he’s as good as Vrana.

 

[NJDfan86]

Lol, okay dude.

My bad, I forgot Vrana was a 1st round pick and Sharangovich a 5th rounder.

 

[MartyOwns]

I'm sure there was intent that he likely doesn't finish out his contract when it was signed, but that's different then thinking "yeah, I'm definitely retiring after the 2016-2017 season" when he signed the contract in 2009. Hossa's contract, like many others signed at the time, had the salary drop to the point that it made sense that they could walk away from it any of those last few years.

He also didn't have to go through treatments to get his $4M salary in 2016-2017 as there's no reason he couldn't have gone on LTIR prior to that season as well. You keep acting like he was willing to do so just for the money, but he still would've gotten paid either way - you keep failing to acknowledge this.

well if the hawks were over the cap in 2016 he might have considered it. maybe he wanted to play that last year? who knows. but he was never going to play for $1M, that’s the point. when his salary dropped to 1, it wasn’t worth going through the treatments and grind of a full nhl season so he retired-kinda-but-not-really-just-stopped-playing.

again, his contract is one of the reasons the cba was revised (although he wasn’t the only one). this all comes down to: was it a big coincidence that he wanted to stop treatments and move back to slovakia when his salary dropped? if you say yes, then fine you believe that by all means. unfortunately Novy Cas seems to have scrubbed the article where hossa laughs and says he never intended to finish the contract, because i can’t find it now. but i’m done banging my head against a wall, believe whatever you like.

 

[NJDfan86]

I mean, just make the durability argument, that’s totally valid and I’d probably agree with it. Sharangovich is a good middle six producer and he stays on the ice. I like Shara, no need to twist statistics to pretend he’s as good as Vrana.

What is being twisted? those are their career numbers so far. I already pointed out that Vrana is shooting 21% in the 39 games over 3 years with Detroit when he is a career 13% shooter - trying to argue that his PPG with Detroit is what should be given the most weight is way more of a twist than I am making.

 

[Triumph]

because he wasn’t going to go through the grind making slightly more than league minimum.

i mean honestly, when he signed that contract did you anticipate him playing those final years? of course not, everybody knew what that contract was. it’s laughable to think otherwise.

Daniel Alfredsson played out his final season and added on one more. Duncan Keith also played one of his 1M years before he was kind of forced into retirement - I think he would still be playing on a 1M salary. Mark Giordano is playing for NHL minimum - Zdeno Chara played for minimum with bonuses. When a player has already made tens of millions of dollars, I don't think it's the amount of money that keeps most of them coming back.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

You are right, let's just ignore the totality of their careers thus far and focus on select timeframes. Vrana is shooting 21% in the bits and pieces he has played with Detroit thus far, that is why his numbers look better now.

I mean yes let’s focus on the relevant timeframes. Stupid to just look at their entire career ppg when Vrana came into the league as a 20 and 21 year old rookie and had weak numbers back then. Lol select timeframes. You mean the last 3 seasons where Sharangovich has been in the league.

Yes he has a high shooting % in Detroit that probably isn’t that sustainable. But he has an elite shot and even before then did well. In the season before Sharangovich came into the league he put up 25 goals and 52 points in 69 games (30 goal and 62 point pace). He also generates more offense and is a much better offensive player when you look at the analytics. Even if you’re an eye test guy he’s clearly a very skilled player and a superior talent.

 

[Saugus]

To cap strapped NHL teams like the Devils players like Shara that can play up and down the lineup with $2 mil cap hits are valuable. You do not trade him for a mystery box

Agreed. For a healthy Vrana who can be a reliable top 6 forward, you make that trade. But there are too many questions about whether he can be that guy again, and I don't think Fitz is looking to make that kind of gamble this season.

 

[HBK27]

well if the hawks were over the cap in 2016 he might have considered it. maybe he wanted to play that last year? who knows. but he was never going to play for $1M, that’s the point. when his salary dropped to 1, it wasn’t worth going through the treatments and grind of a full nhl season so he retired-kinda-but-not-really-just-stopped-playing.

again, his contract is one of the reasons the cba was revised (although he wasn’t the only one). this all comes down to: was it a big coincidence that he wanted to stop treatments and move back to slovakia when his salary dropped? if you say yes, then fine you believe that by all means. unfortunately Novy Cas seems to have scrubbed the article where hossa laughs and says he never intended to finish the contract, because i can’t find it now. but i’m done banging my head against a wall, believe whatever you like.

So, which is it - was he always planning on retiring after the 2016-2017 season when he signed the contract back in 2009 or was it no longer worth going through treatments (for a condition that only developed a few years earlier and got progressively worse each season) that led him to LTIRetire?

Or now is he just making decisions to help out the organization instead?

Again, I doubt he planned on fulfilling his contract and playing until 42 when he originally signed it, but that doesn't mean that he was always planning on walking away as soon as his salary dropped as you're alluding to. And yes, it could absolutely be a coincidence in the timing - that is a possibility that you refuse to believe.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I would rather have Sharangovich because he’s cheaper, not made of glass, and doesn’t have any personal issues. I wish we’d start using him properly because he’s a good scorer.

 

[Rhodes 81]

Luke will get more benefit of the doubt over Severson for a variety of reasons:

-#4 overall pick
-He’s a Hughes
-He does have much higher upside
-He (likely) won’t be around when the team is shitty for years thereby being identified with said shittiness like Sevs
-Because of the Rachel Doerrie nonsense

Didn't really mean to directly compare the two, you just know that Hughes is going to come in and be a dynamic element, but make some really egregious looking errors that certain fans will refuse to look past. This is a reality of special players, when you're capable of doing things most players can't do, you'll also try things most players wouldn't, and it will be ugly when it doesn't work out.

It's the same thing with Severson and his high-risk/reward outlet passes, they get a quick mention when they lead to a breakaway or rush goal, but when they lead to a turnover in the back of the net he gets roasted, even when the chances for outweigh the chances against. Or Hamilton when he starts playing like a 4th forward and it backfires. Hughes will have the benefit that at least when he does pull his stuff off it will be really noticeable like Hamilton and stick in your head more, but there will still be those that insist he's terrible.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I would rather have Sharangovich because he’s cheaper, not made of glass, and doesn’t have any personal issues. I wish we’d start using him properly because he’s a good scorer.

Yes that’s fine. But in no world is Sharangovich close to as good of a player as a healthy Vrana.

 

[SpeakingOfTheDevils]

Yes that’s fine. But in no world is Sharangovich close to as good of a player as a healthy Vrana.

All well and good, but there is no guarantee any of us see a "healthy" and productive Vrana again.

I just keep the bird in hand with Sharangovich.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Yes that’s fine. But in no world is Sharangovich close to as good of a player as a healthy Vrana.

There’s a gap, but it doesn’t look that huge. Both excellent finishers. Both career 14% shooters.

 

[NJDfan86]

I mean yes let’s focus on the relevant timeframes. Stupid to just look at their entire career ppg when Vrana came into the league as a 20 and 21 year old rookie and had weak numbers back then. Lol select timeframes. You mean the last 3 seasons where Sharangovich has been in the league.

Yes he has a high shooting % in Detroit that probably isn’t that sustainable. But he has an elite shot and even before then did well. In the season before Sharangovich came into the league he put up 25 goals and 52 points in 69 games (30 goal and 62 point pace). He also generates more offense and is a much better offensive player when you look at the analytics. Even if you’re an eye test guy he’s clearly a very skilled player and a superior talent.

Might want to check that one.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

anyways, wondering if there is any shot Palat is back this evening? maybe they just didnt want him to play a back to back? Hes practiced in full like 5-6 times already