Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

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Triumph

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Every young player has to improve on things to succeed, that isn't something that's specific to only a certain player type. The reason that defensive defenseman are more rare has to do with a change in philosophy in terms of what a modern defenseman should be and the fact that most players who have the talent to become NHL level defenseman are going to be focusing more on their offensive game since their skill level will likely be higher than that of their peers. That's why someone like Okhotyuk that has great mobility as a skater along with the defensive skill, size and toughness that you want out of a stay at home defender is a very interesting player.

I don't think that the philosophy about defensemen has changed considerably in the last 5-10 years. The big change was in 2005 when they got rid of the obstruction/hooking/holding. Teams still want guys who can play defense, kill penalties, and make life miserable for the opposing team. I don't think that has changed. I think there's fewer of them because it's difficult to have these skills, have the puck skills necessary to play at the NHL level, and also NOT have an offensive side to your game at all.

Why does he have to be excellent at everything to be anything more than a bottom pairing player? There's plenty of avenues for a player to become successful, saying the only way he could be anything more than a bottom pairing player is if he becomes great at every single aspect apart from scoring is an unrealistic standard.

Because that's the reality for players who don't contribute on offense. They almost always lack the puck skill to play above the bottom pairing, and when they're called on to play a top 4 role, they usually struggle.

The same things you've said about Okhotyuk are the same things you would have been saying about Siegenthaler last season. Okhotyuk is only 21 years old and already has a short sample of playing good hockey at the NHL level, to say he has nothing more than bottom pairing potential seems like a silly statement to make considering the circumstances.

Siegenthaler had a season with Washington where he looked like a potential shutdown D in a 3rd pairing role, it's why I was in favor of the move for him. If you want to go back to last summer to see me defending him nonstop, you can do so, it's searchable. Nonetheless, when Okhotiuk has one of those seasons, I will say the same thing about him, but this is a walking versus running scenario, and almost nobody who starts where Okhotiuk starts out gets to run. Siegenthaler is one of them, that is very rare in today's game.

Again, you are wildly overrating this 5 game sample, where Okhotiuk was okay but not great - he had one excellent game, one terrible one, and 3 in between. The fact that the great game was the first one he played has lodged in people's minds here. He's got potential, but there's a long way to go.
 
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Goptor

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I don't think that the philosophy about defensemen has changed considerably in the last 5-10 years. The big change was in 2005 when they got rid of the obstruction/hooking/holding. Teams still want guys who can play defense, kill penalties, and make life miserable for the opposing team. I don't think that has changed. I think there's fewer of them because it's difficult to have these skills, have the puck skills necessary to play at the NHL level, and also NOT have an offensive side to your game at all.

There certainly has been huge shifts in defense over the past 10 years.

10 years ago coaches and trainers at all levels were telling kids to bulk up so you can out-muscle all the power forwards. (see Luke Schenn, etc.)

5-7 years ago the Penguins brought in speed to take advantage of all the big, slow defensemen. At the time, only the truly great skaters and the <6' guys who weren't being told to bulk up took over the league. (see Sami Vatanen, etc.)

last 2-3 years the coaches and trainers have been pushing the bigger guys to work on skating instead of getting huge and we're at a new era where these big, fast guys are weeding out the smaller guys. (Seider, Siegenthaler, etc.)

Okhotyuk is part of the most recent group. He's a larger, more physical guy who has been taught to work on skating and improve speed at every level of development. He's exactly what you want in the NHL today.
 

Tusks Up

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I'm higher on Okhotiuk than most.

I think he can carve out a career as a poor man's Anton Volchenkov. I can see him playing 500+ NHL games as a middle pair/bottom pair, 1st PK unit bonecrushing defenseman. Those guys are very valuable to playoff teams...
You shouldnt have brought up Volchenkov

I thought we were getting a lesser Dion Phaneuf in that guy. Oh how wrong I was
 

Monsieur Verdoux

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No, Coleman was a two-way winger that mostly played on the PK and got limited to no PP time.


I find Pronman always underrates Mercer's skating. Is it really below average? I think he's got good speed and mobility.
Overall Pronman's lists are pretty good, but he has some weird takes when he is making detailed skills evaluations. I mean, for example, he thinks that Smith's skating is above average.
 
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markog

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This is pure nonsense.

It is called soccer in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland (split), Japan, Nigeria (split), Phillipines (split), Singapore (split), and South Africa. There are even a few more minor countries that call it soccer but I didnt list.

You also seem to forget that the name "soccer" was used by the inventors of the game, the British before that changed to football.

I'll never understand why people repeat things without ever checking it when we all have access to the internet.
As you said it changed as are names of countrys and you don't call them by old names anymore. And if you call it that way in US, Canada,... I don't have any problem with that, just funny that you call NFL football, nothing else. And I love NFL.
 
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markog

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Patently false.

Japan, Canada, Australia, the Philippines, and parts of Ireland call it soccer.

It's also a British term that has only fallen out of favor relatively recently.

And hands are great and all, hence why I enjoy the sport, but an argument could be made that every significant scoring play requires kicking the ball at some point.
I enjoy NFL as well just find it funny that is called Football. Anyway in Ireland their governing body is called Football association as is in Japan and Australia for example. In USA and Canada it's called Soccer federation.
 

Triumph

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There certainly has been huge shifts in defense over the past 10 years.

10 years ago coaches and trainers at all levels were telling kids to bulk up so you can out-muscle all the power forwards. (see Luke Schenn, etc.)

Schenn was drafted 14 years ago. Those sorts of defensemen had already begun to fall out of favor by 10 years ago (2012). I guess we saw Griffin Reinhart and Ryan Murray go high, but they both had offensive dimension to their game in junior. By the time 2012 rolls around, Erik Karlsson is already a superstar.

5-7 years ago the Penguins brought in speed to take advantage of all the big, slow defensemen. At the time, only the truly great skaters and the <6' guys who weren't being told to bulk up took over the league. (see Sami Vatanen, etc.)

I just don't see this at all. The game was already beginning to move away from those guys as teams got savvier about who was and was not helping on defense.

last 2-3 years the coaches and trainers have been pushing the bigger guys to work on skating instead of getting huge and we're at a new era where these big, fast guys are weeding out the smaller guys. (Seider, Siegenthaler, etc.)

Okhotyuk is part of the most recent group. He's a larger, more physical guy who has been taught to work on skating and improve speed at every level of development. He's exactly what you want in the NHL today.

In the last 2 or 3 years? Where have they been for the last 10? Forwards have been getting leaner as they age (Jagr and Zajac were two guys who did that here), I just don't see how the trend hasn't been towards getting faster in a league where Connor McDavid's been in it for 7 years.

FWIW, hockey-graphs found in 2015 that the average weight for all players was decreasing, that it peaked in 2004 and was going down. Some of that might be the huge enforcers leaving the game but the average weight was down 5 pounds, and I bet it's less than that now.

EDIT: It is down from 2015, it was 201.2 and is now 198.8, not a big difference at all, but the trend is clear.
 
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britdevil

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Schenn was drafted 14 years ago. Those sorts of defensemen had already begun to fall out of favor by 10 years ago (2012). I guess we saw Griffin Reinhart and Ryan Murray go high, but they both had offensive dimension to their game in junior. By the time 2012 rolls around, Erik Karlsson is already a superstar.



I just don't see this at all. The game was already beginning to move away from those guys as teams got savvier about who was and was not helping on defense.



In the last 2 or 3 years? Where have they been for the last 10? Forwards have been getting leaner as they age (Jagr and Zajac were two guys who did that here), I just don't see how the trend hasn't been towards getting faster in a league where Connor McDavid's been in it for 7 years.

FWIW, hockey-graphs found in 2015 that the average weight for all players was decreasing, that it peaked in 2004 and was going down. Some of that might be the huge enforcers leaving the game but the average weight was down 5 pounds, and I bet it's less than that now.

EDIT: It is down from 2015, it was 201.2 and is now 198.8, not a big difference at all, but the trend is clear.

Millennials and Zoomers with their fancy pants vegan diets.
 

Rhodes 81

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The shift in defense has largely had to do with teams realizing that it's actually a bad thing when your D are racking up a ton of hits and shot blocks. You prefer defense that can pass the puck out of the zone and wingers that can get into position to receive those passes quickly. This has really been the case since 2006, but it has become more clear that teams actually understand this and aren't just lucking into it since about 2012-2015. It's taken the collective hockey-watching populous until the past few years to understand this, and I still pull my hair out every time Dano starts bagging on a guy for trying to make a pass instead of lobbing the puck out to center for the other team to collect and attack again.

This is a shift similar to what we've seen in soccer (not to contribute to that debate) with the way Pep Guardiola influenced tactics over the past decade. Your best scoring opportunities come from transition moments, while possession is almost more of a defensive metric. In hockey, it's similar, as you're much more likely to score catching an odd-man rush than you are from chaining together passes and possession in the offensive zone, but you're also more likely to give up scoring chances going the other way. If you have the puck, it's impossible for the other team to score. This is much more difficult to do in hockey than soccer, where the smaller playing surface makes the game faster, the blueline de-incentivizes passing back to maintain possession, and scoring in general is much more of a random event. But the best teams in the modern game are the ones that capitalize when they get chances in transition and out-possess the opponent in order to limit their chances of scoring.

You need a defense capable of doing two different types of things to do this. One is the ability to pass the puck out of the zone with control in order to generate transition opportunities and to maintain puck possession (Severson), the other is to deny the opponent clean zone entries and disrupt their possession (Seigenthaler). It's also an easy trap to fall into to overlook how much of this is dependent on the forwards as well. What makes Seigenthaler so good is how often he is able to do the 2nd part in a way that leads to him or his partner doing the 1st part. Making a big hit in your own zone rarely does this unless the opponent was already outnumbered, but utilizing good positioning and your stick to run the opponent out of options and force them to make a low-% pass sure does. Sure you still need someone to block shots and make life difficult when you're on the PK, but you generally prefer that person is someone that can contribute in the more possession-oriented ways that lead to wins at even strength.

If Okhotiuk is going to make it as an NHLer, it will be in the role of the disruptor. The reason I am on the fence about if he can do that is simply because there are fewer of those spots available and I'm not quite sure his puck skills will allow him to contribute enough to the possession at even strength. This is really more of a sample size issue than anything else. Most of his 5v5 rates were not terribly favorable in the NHL last year, but that was with minimal playing time which makes it difficult to account for usage, linemates, and general bad luck. You really need at least 10-15 games of a player depending on ice-time before you can make any judgements based on data without being disingenuous. I just question if he'll get that chance here given the players ahead of him on the depth chart.
i dunno that sounds a lot like what Zetterlund would be, to me
Coleman's defensive impact before he became a scorer was more developed and high-end than what Zetterlund is right now. Not that Zetterlund is bad in that regard, but I would call him more average. Hopefully he gets enough playing time this year to help determine if that cna be a strength of his moving forward.
 

Hockey Sports Fan

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Coleman's defensive impact before he became a scorer was more developed and high-end than what Zetterlund is right now. Not that Zetterlund is bad in that regard, but I would call him more average. Hopefully he gets enough playing time this year to help determine if that cna be a strength of his moving forward.
i agree with that. But i also think it’s important to keep in mind that Zetterlund is still 3 years younger than Coleman was in his rookie season. And Coleman definitely looked like a bottom-6 forward until his 26-27yo season.
 

Tusks Up

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I enjoy NFL as well just find it funny that is called Football. Anyway in Ireland their governing body is called Football association as is in Japan and Australia for example. In USA and Canada it's called Soccer federation.
My European buddies and other Premiere League fans I speak to get pretty annoyed when I call it soccer

Always thought it was silly, some of the things they get mad over. Soccer fans are pretty elitist if you ask me. But I like the sport too so I just look past that
 

Hischier and Hughes

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Okhotiuk is wildly overrated around here, how he will succeed is by improving his transition game and being a lockdown defender. It's just such a difficult thing for a player to do. Now that the Devils have Siegenthaler, an extremely rare sort of defenseman who is just that good at zone entry denials/breaking up passes/wall play with decent enough transition ability to be exceptional in the D zone, every defensive D prospect will be compared to him, but this sort of player being this good is just not something that happens often.

I love that Okhotiuk is mean, you want someone like that on the blueline for sure, but he's limited offensively which means he has to be excellent at everything else to make it off the bottom pair.

I think people are just not remembering Okhotiuk's brief NHL stint either, where he did look excellent in his first two games and fell off pretty quickly from there. He might make the team, he might not, I like him, but this sort of player usually doesn't make it.
A 21 year old has to improve on things that may be difficult to make the NHL?

You dont say... A whole lot of typing there for not much substance. Should also try not to state opinions like they're fact.

You think hes wildly overrated, that doesnt mean others do.
 

Triumph

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A 21 year old has to improve on things that may be difficult to make the NHL?

You dont say... A whole lot of typing there for not much substance. Should also try not to state opinions like they're fact.

You think hes wildly overrated, that doesnt mean others do.

As opposed to this high-content post from the nickname leader - you do understand that when a player is deemed to be overrated, it is a comment on other people's evaluations of that player, and says very little about the player himself, right? You can think Sidney Crosby and Teddy Bleuger are overrated, for instance, but one thing means something very different from the other.

Nikita Okhotiuk is overrated on this particular message board in my opinion, I see many people praising his stint in the NHL where he was merely okay, but had a great first game. I'm going to state opinions like facts because it's ridiculous to note what things are opinion and which are fact, as evinced by the above statement where I said 'in my opinion' for no reason.
 
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markog

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My European buddies and other Premiere League fans I speak to get pretty annoyed when I call it soccer

Always thought it was silly, some of the things they get mad over. Soccer fans are pretty elitist if you ask me. But I like the sport too so I just look past that
What do you mean by that?
 

OmNomNom

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What do you mean by that?
i feel like he's saying they're pretty traditional/unflexible with their views, as a bunch. prob not at the individual level, but you could prob get a few hiveminded strong opinions (to be fair, the brits seem a pretty dry humor bunch)

i remember on a soccer/football forum, i called it a "tie game" (my american slipped out) and got hounded (in good humor) about how it's a draw, and a tie is another phrase for a match

i've finally picked up on some british verbiage
 

Tusks Up

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What do you mean by that?
Its the only sport Ive found a strong barrier for getting into. The NA sports are pretty easy to get into and I find their fans are more accepting of newcomers.

Soccer (or football, dont kill me) has such incredibly strong roots in England and these other countries that its almost impossible to not be seen as different among the fanbase. You could be the greatest supporter of Liverpool in the entire US; but youll never be from Liverpool nor a true Liverpool fan with family roots.

Also, and this is mainly an internet thing, but 'Yankees' get an extremely hard time over talking the sport. The US is seen as the sports hub to most of the world, but soccer/football fans know their sport isnt big here and so they assume anyone from here is just a bandwagon/fake fan. Even calling, say, the Tottenham Hotspurs the 'Hotspurs' will get you chomped at. Yet its in the name! Lol

And lastly, the ribbing among soccer/football fans is strong enough to break even the most mentally toughened individual. But that has more to do with England's world-class sarcasm I think lol
 

markog

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Its the only sport Ive found a strong barrier for getting into. The NA sports are pretty easy to get into and I find their fans are more accepting of newcomers.

Soccer (or football, dont kill me) has such incredibly strong roots in England and these other countries that its almost impossible to not be seen as different among the fanbase. You could be the greatest supporter of Liverpool in the entire US; but youll never be from Liverpool nor a true Liverpool fan with family roots.

Also, and this is mainly an internet thing, but 'Yankees' get an extremely hard time over talking the sport. The US is seen as the sports hub to most of the world, but soccer/football fans know their sport isnt big here and so they assume anyone from here is just a bandwagon/fake fan. Even calling, say, the Tottenham Hotspurs the 'Hotspurs' will get you chomped at. Yet its in the name! Lol

And lastly, the ribbing among soccer/football fans is strong enough to break even the most mentally toughened individual. But that has more to do with England's world-class sarcasm I think lol
Maybe some but I think that was more true before, now is much more global. I'm Bayern Munich fan and I'm not from Munich but I don't see it that way, I really don't care where people are from, I have problem with "fans" who were Man Utd fans for example and then when Beckham and Ronaldo went to Madrid, were Real fans. These are not real fans for me.
 

markog

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i feel like he's saying they're pretty traditional/unflexible with their views, as a bunch. prob not at the individual level, but you could prob get a few hiveminded strong opinions (to be fair, the brits seem a pretty dry humor bunch)

i remember on a soccer/football forum, i called it a "tie game" (my american slipped out) and got hounded (in good humor) about how it's a draw, and a tie is another phrase for a match

i've finally picked up on some british verbiage
Yeah thats funny. English fans from outside have superiority (spelling??) complex but are in most cases quickly put down, specially in international football with national team and also Premier league which is the strongest but Spanish clubs in reality dominate club football for 2 decades now.
 
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Tusks Up

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Maybe some but I think that was more true before, now is much more global. I'm Bayern Munich fan and I'm not from Munich but I don't see it that way, I really don't care where people are from, I have problem with "fans" who were Man Utd fans for example and then when Beckham and Ronaldo went to Madrid, were Real fans. These are not real fans for me.
As much as Id like to think you're right, Ive unfortunately seen first-hand that it is still the case even today.

Though I can only imagine how much worse it was some years ago. But with the internet giving anyone and everyone an opinion, I think some more of that 'youre not from our country/city' stuff has more of a role to play now than ever. And its only human nature, I cant fault them for that.

But yeah, as the other poster said, when saying game instead of match points out that you're a Yankee, its seemingly still rooted into their brains that something is different about you than their close friends in Liverpool/Bayern/etc..

Luckily for me Im an Aston Villa fan, or a Villan, and so I have less of that big robust fanbase to deal with telling me Im not as much a fan as them. Clubs like Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham, and the Man's will be much quicker to jump on you if they get a whiff of your Western-ways lol.
 
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Guadana

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The shift in defense has largely had to do with teams realizing that it's actually a bad thing when your D are racking up a ton of hits and shot blocks. You prefer defense that can pass the puck out of the zone and wingers that can get into position to receive those passes quickly. This has really been the case since 2006, but it has become more clear that teams actually understand this and aren't just lucking into it since about 2012-2015. It's taken the collective hockey-watching populous until the past few years to understand this, and I still pull my hair out every time Dano starts bagging on a guy for trying to make a pass instead of lobbing the puck out to center for the other team to collect and attack again.

This is a shift similar to what we've seen in soccer (not to contribute to that debate) with the way Pep Guardiola influenced tactics over the past decade. Your best scoring opportunities come from transition moments, while possession is almost more of a defensive metric. In hockey, it's similar, as you're much more likely to score catching an odd-man rush than you are from chaining together passes and possession in the offensive zone, but you're also more likely to give up scoring chances going the other way. If you have the puck, it's impossible for the other team to score. This is much more difficult to do in hockey than soccer, where the smaller playing surface makes the game faster, the blueline de-incentivizes passing back to maintain possession, and scoring in general is much more of a random event. But the best teams in the modern game are the ones that capitalize when they get chances in transition and out-possess the opponent in order to limit their chances of scoring.

You need a defense capable of doing two different types of things to do this. One is the ability to pass the puck out of the zone with control in order to generate transition opportunities and to maintain puck possession (Severson), the other is to deny the opponent clean zone entries and disrupt their possession (Seigenthaler). It's also an easy trap to fall into to overlook how much of this is dependent on the forwards as well. What makes Seigenthaler so good is how often he is able to do the 2nd part in a way that leads to him or his partner doing the 1st part. Making a big hit in your own zone rarely does this unless the opponent was already outnumbered, but utilizing good positioning and your stick to run the opponent out of options and force them to make a low-% pass sure does. Sure you still need someone to block shots and make life difficult when you're on the PK, but you generally prefer that person is someone that can contribute in the more possession-oriented ways that lead to wins at even strength.

If Okhotiuk is going to make it as an NHLer, it will be in the role of the disruptor. The reason I am on the fence about if he can do that is simply because there are fewer of those spots available and I'm not quite sure his puck skills will allow him to contribute enough to the possession at even strength. This is really more of a sample size issue than anything else. Most of his 5v5 rates were not terribly favorable in the NHL last year, but that was with minimal playing time which makes it difficult to account for usage, linemates, and general bad luck. You really need at least 10-15 games of a player depending on ice-time before you can make any judgements based on data without being disingenuous. I just question if he'll get that chance here given the players ahead of him on the depth chart.

Coleman's defensive impact before he became a scorer was more developed and high-end than what Zetterlund is right now. Not that Zetterlund is bad in that regard, but I would call him more average. Hopefully he gets enough playing time this year to help determine if that cna be a strength of his moving forward.
Even 10-15 game is nothing. Sometimes especially defensemen need to play some time, taking feedback and work on their game. It’s not that easy when you are good for your role on lower level, you can’t fix your game drastically for. Making it better for nhl. Guys like Zetterlund, Thompson and Okhotyuk should play some games(or start to play on the regular basis) to be better and useful players. Foote and Clarke have enough to fix even on ahl level for their roles.
 
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