Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part III

[Nubmer6]

I think average might be more accurate, but no asterisks for size. Having good size and being an average skater is better than being small and being an average skater, but size is one category and skating another.

Agreed. I added the "for his size" part because it made it all the more surprising. I thought his skating was at least NHL average, and his speed impressive. The guy can MOVE.

The point is, I would not consider him below NHL average, regardless of size.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Pronman certainly doesn't have time or brainspace to watch 1000 prospects a year and legitimately have a takeaway about their game. His writeup on Okhotiuk is exactly right, though, and Gritsyuk is overrated here (though he is a better prospect than Foote).

Exactly. Not faulting Pronman at all, just stating how these rankings are often silly because, as you said, one person simply does not have any humane ability to rank every single prospect of every single team all the way down to the top 15 per team.

 

[Guadana]

After the seasons they had: Foote seems way too high at #6 and Gritsyuk seems too low at #10. Other than that, nothing too controversial.

Edit - Okhotiuk being an honorable mention is unacceptable

Pronman can't watch every team. This is what is going on when you try to talk about everything, you will miss everywhere.

I'd certainly put us above Detroit and Buffalo, but that might just be me being a homer.

Anyways, as mentioned above, the fact that Pronman has Foote at 6, Gritsyuk at 10, and Okhotiuk nowhere to be found goes to show how silly some of these things are.

I would say Pronman missed with personalities, but he is very close in overall rankings with clubs.
Ofcourse Gritsyuk deserve more credit and even Triumph, very smart guy, doesn't really understand, what he is talking about, but some truth is there, we don't know, how things will goin on after year, and how Gritsyuk will translate his game. He isn't playmaker and wasn't great in tight areas. Ofcourse he is dynamic, has good skating, shot, his passing game is going better, but before he will cross the Atlantic Ocean, we can't clearly say how his game will look and how many days, months or seasons he will need to adapt. And I don't know how much time devils will have to give him. I don't think much. So... he is questionable with interesting upside. Like many like to tell - not a high floor, but high ceiling.

Ofcourse when season will start, I will continue to track him closely, and will especially focus on his game on the boards and without the puck.

Return to the rankings, I think Detroit and Buffalo prospects pools have more diversity in successful part, and I would say, best devils prospect are offensive oriented players for now. Ofcourse Okhotiuk is very intriguing prospect, who can help to build our defensive core without spending a lot of money and protect guy like Nemec, but he is very defensive oriented and has a lot of risk, with not so much time for adapting his game. He isn't Luke, coaches have not so much excuses for him.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

Okhotyuk’s exactly where he should be on that ranking. It’s been fun to watch him develop, but it’s still pretty clear that his ceiling is a 3rd pairing defenseman. And with Bahl and Muk likely ahead of him on the depth chart, he probably tops out as a #7 unless we have another ungodly string of injuries.

 

[bossram]

Okhotyuk’s exactly where he should be on that ranking. It’s been fun to watch him develop, but it’s still pretty clear that his ceiling is a 3rd pairing defenseman. And with Bahl and Muk likely ahead of him on the depth chart, he probably tops out as a #7 unless we have another ungodly string of injuries.

Yeah, not really much of an issue with Pronman's Devils' list. He's an individual scout, it's not a consensus list, so there will always be quirks. Maybe you can flip Foote and Gritsyuk, but Foote is closer to the NHL. With Okh, maybe you can put him at the back of the "Projected to play NHL games tier" but it's not a big deal. His max upside is a bottom-pair defenseman, so how high can someone realistically rank him?

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

Yeah, not really much of an issue with Pronman's Devils' list. He's an individual scout, it's not a consensus list, so there will always be quirks. Maybe you can flip Foote and Gritsyuk, but Foote is closer to the NHL. With Okh, maybe you can put him at the back of the "Projected to play NHL games tier" but it's not a big deal. His max upside is a bottom-pair defenseman, so how high can someone realistically rank him?

As far as Foote, even though his AHL #’s weren’t too exciting last year, he still jumped into the NHL lineup and scored at a 35 goal pace over a short period. And i’d have to look it up but my guess would be he wasn’t getting 19 minutes of ice time a night. There’s still a lot to like about his game.

 

[Devils731]

And to add to Foote, Pronman even says he knows people would disagree with the ranking but he personally is a believer in the player despite the numbers not being there last year.

 

[bossram]

As far as Foote, even though his AHL #’s weren’t too exciting last year, he still jumped into the NHL lineup and scored at a 35 goal pace over a short period. And i’d have to look it up but my guess would be he wasn’t getting 19 minutes of ice time a night. There’s still a lot to like about his game.

And to add to Foote, Pronman even says he knows people would disagree with the ranking but he personally is a believer in the player despite the numbers not being there last year.

Yeah, I think I'm personally higher on Foote than most of the board too. I was voting for him in the board's prospect pool earlier than the consensus ranking. At a minimum, he has the build to play a bottom-six NHL role, and he's already had a couple of successful short-term NHL stints.

I think his Utica numbers this season are kind of skewed. IIRC he had a very slow start in terms of production, but picked the pace way up in the second half. Maybe that's a positive development sign.

 

[Guadana]

Okhotyuk’s exactly where he should be on that ranking. It’s been fun to watch him develop, but it’s still pretty clear that his ceiling is a 3rd pairing defenseman. And with Bahl and Muk likely ahead of him on the depth chart, he probably tops out as a #7 unless we have another ungodly string of injuries.

This is exactly pronman`s level of analysis. But whithout analysis of other teams.

So.. when we trying to rank all teams in the same time, it`s enough.

 

[My3Sons]

Pronman can't watch every team. This is what is going on when you try to talk about everything, you will miss everywhere.


I would say Pronman missed with personalities, but he is very close in overall rankings with clubs.
Ofcourse Gritsyuk deserve more credit and even Triumph, very smart guy, doesn't really understand, what he is talking about, but some truth is there, we don't know, how things will goin on after year, and how Gritsyuk will translate his game. He isn't playmaker and wasn't great in tight areas. Ofcourse he is dynamic, has good skating, shot, his passing game is going better, but before he will cross the Atlantic Ocean, we can't clearly say how his game will look and how many days, months or seasons he will need to adapt. And I don't know how much time devils will have to give him. I don't think much. So... he is questionable with interesting upside. Like many like to tell - not a high floor, but high ceiling.

Ofcourse when season will start, I will continue to track him closely, and will especially focus on his game on the boards and without the puck.

Return to the rankings, I think Detroit and Buffalo prospects pools have more diversity in successful part, and I would say, best devils prospect are offensive oriented players for now. Ofcourse Okhotiuk is very intriguing prospect, who can help to build our defensive core without spending a lot of money and protect guy like Nemec, but he is very defensive oriented and has a lot of risk, with not so much time for adapting his game. He isn't Luke, coaches have not so much excuses for him.

That is all well and good, but skating, shooting, playmaking, board work, and defense aside, if Gritsyuk wants a say in what his nickname is he needs to get on that train now. If he waits until he actually signs an ELC for next season it will be too late and he will be stuck with something he doesn't like. You need to explain that to him so he does not have NJ fans greet him at the airport with signs saying "Welcome Gritty (Not the Flyers Mascot)". That would be embarrassing.

 

[Eggtimer]

That is all well and good, but skating, shooting, playmaking, board work, and defense aside, if Gritsyuk wants a say in what his nickname is he needs to get on that train now. If he waits until he actually signs an ELC for next season it will be too late and he will be stuck with something he doesn't like. You need to explain that to him so he does not have NJ fans greet him at the airport with signs saying "Welcome Gritty (Not the Flyers Mascot)". That would be embarrassing.

Gritty or “ Yuks” or “ Yuk’ers”….
To this day , my friends from high school , when I was young and had all my hair , address each other by our last names . Usually shortened last name with an s at the end . Sounds weird mid-life guys calling each other that way still to this day lol .
I guess it could be worse … we also used to call each other by the persons moms first name but … used in a short rhyme . Example - buddies moms name was Brenda . We’d call buddy by saying “ Hey Bed bouncing Brenda , how’s it going” or “ Cleavage Colleen “ , “ Down on her knees Louise”

 

[My3Sons]

Gritty or “ Yuks” or “ Yuk’ers”….
To this day , my friends from high school , when I was young and had all my hair , address each other by our last names . Usually shortened last name with an s at the end . Sounds weird mid-life guys calling each other that way still to this day lol .
I guess it could be worse … we also used to call each other by the persons moms first name but … used in a short rhyme . Example - buddies moms name was Brenda . We’d call buddy by saying “ Hey Bed bouncing Brenda , how’s it going” or “ Cleavage Colleen “ , “ Down on her knees Louise”

Ahh..young males...we were all so classy and sophisticated

 

[Guadana]

That is all well and good, but skating, shooting, playmaking, board work, and defense aside, if Gritsyuk wants a say in what his nickname is he needs to get on that train now. If he waits until he actually signs an ELC for next season it will be too late and he will be stuck with something he doesn't like. You need to explain that to him so he does not have NJ fans greet him at the airport with signs saying "Welcome Gritty (Not the Flyers Mascot)". That would be embarrassing.

If things will not go as well, we can call him Brattreplacementer. Hope we will find other nickname.

 

[Eggtimer]

If things will not go as well, we can call him Brattreplacementer. Hope we will find other nickname.

I kinda like Brattreplacementer though . It has a nice ring to it .

 

[devilsblood]

Okhotyuk’s exactly where he should be on that ranking. It’s been fun to watch him develop, but it’s still pretty clear that his ceiling is a 3rd pairing defenseman. And with Bahl and Muk likely ahead of him on the depth chart, he probably tops out as a #7 unless we have another ungodly string of injuries.

Ceiling's are a funny notion, who would have thought Sieg's was a high end d-first 2nd pair d-man? Even as recently as his 23 year old season.

Same goes for "floor", for most guys their floor is not an NHL player. But we often hear "his floor is mid pair" or "mid 6 fwd".

But could OK follow that Sieg's trajectory and at some point be a good mid pair d first guy? It's possible.

 

[Lou Bloom]

I think Okhotyuk gets underrated because he doesn't have the size of someone like Bahl or the scoring of Walsh so people who don't watch him play just assume he's a middling talent that doesn't bring any standout tools to the table. But watching him play he's an extremely good skater for a player with his size and defense first style of play and his mobility and poise make him very effective in terms of getting the puck out of his own zone and transitioning it up the ice.

We're also talking about a former 2nd round pick that more than held his own at the NHL level as a 21 year old in a short sample size. To say there's only bottom pairing upside with Okhotyuk seems to only come from the idea that points = upside which isn't really the case.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

I'm higher on Okhotiuk than most.

I think he can carve out a career as a poor man's Anton Volchenkov. I can see him playing 500+ NHL games as a middle pair/bottom pair, 1st PK unit bonecrushing defenseman. Those guys are very valuable to playoff teams...

 

[Guadana]

I think Okhotyuk gets underrated because he doesn't have the size of someone like Bahl or the scoring of Walsh so people who don't watch him play just assume he's a middling talent that doesn't bring any standout tools to the table. But watching him play he's an extremely good skater for a player with his size and defense first style of play and his mobility and poise make him very effective in terms of getting the puck out of his own zone and transitioning it up the ice.

We're also talking about a former 2nd round pick that more than held his own at the NHL level as a 21 year old in a short sample size. To say there's only bottom pairing upside with Okhotyuk seems to only come from the idea that points = upside which isn't really the case.

People care a lot about points, but we are talking about defensemen. There were a lot of defensemen in ahl in the last 17 years who produced on the level of Walsh or better in his age. You will not find many good nhlers from them.

 

[forceten]

This is pure nonsense.

It is called soccer in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland (split), Japan, Nigeria (split), Phillipines (split), Singapore (split), and South Africa. There are even a few more minor countries that call it soccer but I didnt list.

You also seem to forget that the name "soccer" was used by the inventors of the game, the British before that changed to football.

I'll never understand why people repeat things without ever checking it when we all have access to the internet.

Yup. Soccer is a morph from Association Football.... Assocer... Soccer.

Football is a series of codes. Rugby (several variants), Soccer, American Football, Aussie Football, Canadian Football, Gaelic Football, it goes on and on. They're variants, like broccoli, cauliflower, kale, brussels sprouts, and cabbage are all variants of wild frickin mustard.

 

[Eggtimer]

I'm higher on Okhotiuk than most.

I think he can carve out a career as a poor man's Anton Volchenkov. I can see him playing 500+ NHL games as a middle pair/bottom pair, 1st PK unit bonecrushing defenseman. Those guys are very valuable to playoff teams...

We need guys like that , so I’m happy if Okhotiuk is a #3/4/5/6 that plays excellent defence , plays with an edge , PK’s and helps his D partner do their thing offensively . Yes it would be an added bonus if he produced at a hood rate but I’m fine with a player that is “ just” very good at the defensive side of the game . We have Hamilton , Hughes , Nemec , Casey , for offence

 

[Jack Be Quick]

It's only USA who calls it soccer while they call Football a sport where 95% of times they use hands to play.

Patently false.

Japan, Canada, Australia, the Philippines, and parts of Ireland call it soccer.

It's also a British term that has only fallen out of favor relatively recently.

And hands are great and all, hence why I enjoy the sport, but an argument could be made that every significant scoring play requires kicking the ball at some point.

 

[Triumph]

I think Okhotyuk gets underrated because he doesn't have the size of someone like Bahl or the scoring of Walsh so people who don't watch him play just assume he's a middling talent that doesn't bring any standout tools to the table. But watching him play he's an extremely good skater for a player with his size and defense first style of play and his mobility and poise make him very effective in terms of getting the puck out of his own zone and transitioning it up the ice.

We're also talking about a former 2nd round pick that more than held his own at the NHL level as a 21 year old in a short sample size. To say there's only bottom pairing upside with Okhotyuk seems to only come from the idea that points = upside which isn't really the case.

Okhotiuk is wildly overrated around here, how he will succeed is by improving his transition game and being a lockdown defender. It's just such a difficult thing for a player to do. Now that the Devils have Siegenthaler, an extremely rare sort of defenseman who is just that good at zone entry denials/breaking up passes/wall play with decent enough transition ability to be exceptional in the D zone, every defensive D prospect will be compared to him, but this sort of player being this good is just not something that happens often.

I love that Okhotiuk is mean, you want someone like that on the blueline for sure, but he's limited offensively which means he has to be excellent at everything else to make it off the bottom pair.

I think people are just not remembering Okhotiuk's brief NHL stint either, where he did look excellent in his first two games and fell off pretty quickly from there. He might make the team, he might not, I like him, but this sort of player usually doesn't make it.

 

[RSeen]

Isn’t this…..exactly what Coleman was?

No, Coleman was a two-way winger that mostly played on the PK and got limited to no PP time.

Corey Pronman's NHL Pipeline Rankings: No. 3 Devils paced by two Hughes brothers

Ranking the top prospects and under-23 players in the organization. Plus, what to expect of every player.

theathletic.com

Devils #3 on Pronman’s prospect pipeline ranks

I find Pronman always underrates Mercer's skating. Is it really below average? I think he's got good speed and mobility.

 

[Devils731]

I find Pronman always underrates Mercer's skating. Is it really below average? I think he's got good speed and mobility.

Skating is always tough to discuss as an overall grade because there are so many different aspects to skating.

I think Mercer doesn’t have a great first step nor great top speed nor great agility.

He’s ok at all those things but he probably overperforms his technique because of his compete level being high.

Also, he has great hands that he combines with his skating at the same time so his elusiveness is big in those moments and it feels like that’s a plus to his skating but it’s more about hands and a good a ability to dangle while continuing to move his feet.

So do I think Mercer is a below average skater? I’d say no, I think he’s more average in many way. I also think he outperforms his skating ability with effort so he has situations where his skating makes a better than expected impact due to his motor.

 

[Lou Bloom]

Okhotiuk is wildly overrated around here, how he will succeed is by improving his transition game and being a lockdown defender. It's just such a difficult thing for a player to do. Now that the Devils have Siegenthaler, an extremely rare sort of defenseman who is just that good at zone entry denials/breaking up passes/wall play with decent enough transition ability to be exceptional in the D zone, every defensive D prospect will be compared to him, but this sort of player being this good is just not something that happens often.

I love that Okhotiuk is mean, you want someone like that on the blueline for sure, but he's limited offensively which means he has to be excellent at everything else to make it off the bottom pair.

I think people are just not remembering Okhotiuk's brief NHL stint either, where he did look excellent in his first two games and fell off pretty quickly from there. He might make the team, he might not, I like him, but this sort of player usually doesn't make it.

Every young player has to improve on things to succeed, that isn't something that's specific to only a certain player type. The reason that defensive defenseman are more rare has to do with a change in philosophy in terms of what a modern defenseman should be and the fact that most players who have the talent to become NHL level defenseman are going to be focusing more on their offensive game since their skill level will likely be higher than that of their peers. That's why someone like Okhotyuk that has great mobility as a skater along with the defensive skill, size and toughness that you want out of a stay at home defender is a very interesting player.

Why does he have to be excellent at everything to be anything more than a bottom pairing player? There's plenty of avenues for a player to become successful, saying the only way he could be anything more than a bottom pairing player is if he becomes great at every single aspect apart from scoring is an unrealistic standard.

The same things you've said about Okhotyuk are the same things you would have been saying about Siegenthaler last season. Okhotyuk is only 21 years old and already has a short sample of playing good hockey at the NHL level, to say he has nothing more than bottom pairing potential seems like a silly statement to make considering the circumstances.