Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[Guttersniped]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Who is doing the bolded other than the people creating that strawman to knock it down?

It's not easy attaining these types of players. Which is why some of us are concerned about the road forward with this group. I'm sure nobody here wants us to be the next iteration of the Maple Leafs.

Posters have wanted Bertuzzi and Domi in the past for grit. Well the Leafs got them and what has that done for them?

The Leafs have endless assets, endless cache to attract players and to many cooks in the kitchen, their team building has been chaotic and shortsighted.

We can take a different path by trying to build a better defense. The Leafs aren’t winning shit with that defense. They had a short window before Gio and Muzzin broke down but that window has shut down.

Another way to avoid the Leafs fate is not to decide you’re in “win now” mode before you’ve won at all in the playoffs and waste assets on rentals instead of pieces that you keep.

I don’t see the Leafs as our fates any more than any other team.

 

[guitarguyvic]

you ever going to answer if someone who is soft can change that reputation and how, or you going to keep spinning around your hypothetical?

If that was the question, why didn't you just ask?

It sounds like you're asking me if players can evolve, which the answer is yes of course. But also, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. So it depends.

What's your point?

 

[NJDfan86]

If that was the question, why didn't you just ask?

It sounds like you're asking me if players can evolve, which the answer is yes of course. But also, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks. So it depends.

What's your point?

Can you be a soft player and still have a ring?

 

[guitarguyvic]

Posters have wanted Bertuzzi and Domi in the past for grit. Well the Leafs got them and what has that done for them?

This is still a strawman. Some posters wanting Bertuzzi and Domi "for grit" does not equal "Bertuzzi and Domi fix all the Maple Leaf's toughness problems".

The Leafs have endless assets, endless cache to attract players and to many cooks in the kitchen, their team building has been chaotic and shortsighted.

We can take a different path by trying to build a better defense. The Leafs aren’t winning shit with that defense. They had a short window before Gio and Muzzin broke down but that window has shut down.

Another way to avoid the Leafs fate is not to decide you’re in “win now” mode before you’ve won at all in the playoffs and waste assets on rentals instead of pieces that you keep.

I agree with all of this.

I don’t see the Leafs as our fates any more than any other team.

I think a lot of our concerns with our top 6 forwards are similar to what ails the Toronto top 6. Speaking for myself, I wasn't comparing the two teams beyond that.

Can you be a soft player and still have a ring?

Yeah of course. You can be an outright bad player and have a ring.

What exactly do you think this means?

 

[NJDfan86]

This is still a strawman. Some posters wanting Bertuzzi and Domi "for grit" does not equal "Bertuzzi and Domi fix all the Maple Leaf's toughness problems".


I agree with all of this.


I think a lot of our concerns with our top 6 forwards are similar to what ails the Toronto top 6. Speaking for myself, I wasn't comparing the two teams beyond that.


Yeah of course. You can be an outright bad player and have a ring.

What exactly do you think this means?

Then even if all of those Toronto players you listed are “soft”, that doesn’t prohibit them from winning a cup, and subsequently can’t be solely what their failure to reach the finals is based on.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Then even if all of those Toronto players you listed are “soft”, that doesn’t prohibit them from winning a cup, and subsequently can’t be solely what their failure to reach the finals is based on.

You had him jump through a page worth of hoops to say Toronto might be soft, but can still win, but hasn't, but could, so it's not because they are soft.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I would love a shit stirrer that other teams are a bit afraid of. The problem is there are very very few of those guys that are any good at the sport. Domi is a p***y cheap shot artist that isn’t even tough or particularly physical.

So instead of finding the mythical tough guy, let’s just find some guys that forecheck hard and stand up well to a physical game. A Nichushkin or a Coleman is the type of player we need.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Then even if all of those Toronto players you listed are “soft”, that doesn’t prohibit them from winning a cup, and subsequently can’t be solely what their failure to reach the finals is based on.

This isn't serious right? Mediocre players win cups too. Let's replace "soft" with "mediocre" and "Toronto" with "NY Islanders".

Even if all those NY Islanders players are mediocre, that doesn't prohibit them from winning a cup, and subsequently can't be solely what their failure to reach the finals is based on.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I would love a shit stirrer that other teams are a bit afraid of. The problem is there are very very few of those guys that are any good at the sport. Domi is a p***y cheap shot artist that isn’t even tough or particularly physical.

So instead of finding the mythical tough guy, let’s just find some guys that forecheck hard and stand up well to a physical game. A Nichushkin or a Coleman is the type of player we need.

So in other words...players who aren't soft and can play in the top 6. LOL. You can't make this stuff up.

This is definitely not a semantics argument!

 

[NjDevsRR]

I would love a shit stirrer that other teams are a bit afraid of. The problem is there are very very few of those guys that are any good at the sport. Domi is a p***y cheap shot artist that isn’t even tough or particularly physical.

So instead of finding the mythical tough guy, let’s just find some guys that forecheck hard and stand up well to a physical game. A Nichushkin or a Coleman is the type of player we need.

Would Crouse be someone worth looking into?

 

[Xirik]

Would Crouse be someone worth looking into?

Utah see's him as a long term fixture of the team, Doubt they would have wheeled him out for their "welcoming ceremony" if he had any chance of being traded.

 

[MartyOwns]

i am so sick of reading about toughness. you guys can't even agree on what toughness is, yet everybody has a solution. let's get a thread dedicated to toughness where you knobjobs can grunt at each other like tim allen and talk about big tough manly man things.

it's not even may yet and i want to blow my brains out lol.

 

[NJDfan86]

You had him jump through a page worth of hoops to say Toronto might be soft, but can still win, but hasn't, but could, so it's not because they are soft.

Thanks for jumping in! I started asking the poster to define how and why the players were soft like 3 posts into the discussion, feel free to jump back and check it out

Edit:spelling/typing.

 

[tailfins]

Posters have wanted Bertuzzi and Domi in the past for grit. Well the Leafs got them and what has that done for them?

The Leafs have endless assets, endless cache to attract players and to many cooks in the kitchen, their team building has been chaotic and shortsighted.

We can take a different path by trying to build a better defense. The Leafs aren’t winning shit with that defense. They had a short window before Gio and Muzzin broke down but that window has shut down.

Another way to avoid the Leafs fate is not to decide you’re in “win now” mode before you’ve won at all in the playoffs and waste assets on rentals instead of pieces that you keep.

I don’t see the Leafs as our fates any more than any other team.

The Leafs issue is way simpler.

I get that they're not scoring. But, IMO, Toronto's issue is that they're not willing (or able?) to win 2-1.

You see it over and over in the playoffs: teams that press or panic are likely to make mistakes, and if you don't have an eraser in net, those mistakes can cost teams a game or a series.

The soft thing is a concern, but to me it's really about building a team that's able to force other teams into mistakes and then taking advantage - while also not giving in to the other team's tactics.

 

[My3Sons]

Thanks for jumping in! I started asking the poster to define how and why the players were soft like 3 posts into the discussion, feel free to jump back and watch it avoided.

Players are soft because you press them with your finger and it sinks in and the flesh does not rebound when you remove your finger. There is a short documentary on television from time to time that covers this issue using crescent rolls as a background.

 

[Better Call Sal]

i am so sick of reading about toughness. you guys can't even agree on what toughness is, yet everybody has a solution. let's get a thread dedicated to toughness where you knobjobs can grunt at each other like tim allen and talk about big tough manly man things.

it's not even may yet and i want to blow my brains out lol.

 

[Bleedred]

I wonder who ran the 6 on 5 plays last year?

Seems to me all evidence points to it being a guy named TG.

And it’s not Tom Gulliti.

 

[Bleedred]

Are we really not to believe that a well-established and tenured coach in the league like Sullivan wouldn't have complete autonomy on lineup and roster decisions?

Didn't they give Green complete control? I'm sure they'd give that to a guy that's actually won and has been successful at coaching NHL hockey. More successful than anyone that's coached us in the last 20+ years.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Would Crouse be someone worth looking into?

I would love to swap Holtz and a pick/prospect for him but I think he’s a guy they’ll build around.

Maybe Tolvanen is someone we can look at? RFA, pretty good defensively, good shot, 210 hits.

 

[Cheddabombs]

i am so sick of reading about toughness. you guys can't even agree on what toughness is, yet everybody has a solution. let's get a thread dedicated to toughness where you knobjobs can grunt at each other like tim allen and talk about big tough manly man things.

it's not even may yet and i want to blow my brains out lol.

We're in for a tough couple of months

 

[MartyOwns]

 

[Guadana]

I dont know why nobody posted it? Does Glen know?

 

[Oneiro]

When I think of toughness on a team level, I'm mostly thinking of Blake Coleman-like attributes.

Super quick to physically engage in 50/50 battles, relentless forechecking, tight gaps in the d-zone, aggressive if in pursuit, strong puck protection and very active sticks. And on a more subtle level, moving the puck to areas that are maximally annoying to the opponent and buy you more time to regroup if needed. All super cliched things but that is the game once you move past skating and raw talent/skill stuff. We suck at this collectively.

I do think we have a bit of an organizational problem with development or something about the teaching atmosphere. It really should not have taken his career coming to an end to get this kind of game out of McLeod, for example. He could've been that kind of player by the end of his ELC. Ditto for a lot of the others, including Severson.

A lot of those guys in Vegas were not nearly as hard on the puck before that expansion draft. McPhee did a good job with a lot of the Caps character guys and you could say the same for what he and McCrimmon did with the VGK guys as well. McCrimmon oversaw quite a few solid NHLers in Brandon before coming to Vegas.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Thanks for jumping in! I started asking the poster to define how and why the players were soft like 3 posts into the discussion, feel free to jump back and check it out

Edit:spelling/typing.

No worries, I do what I can. But my apologies for not going over all the hoops you made him jump through, though to be the fair, it seems like it was a lot, I won't go back and check, I trust you. I was just commenting on the grand finale dunk you were working towards, and how way too much effort went into it, but now I know it was more.

 

[crashline]

Deserved.