Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[NJDevs26]

That's GOTTA be an abnormally high stat lol

Even if the Devils were somehow as bad next year you'd figure Dougie would eat a lot of that plus minus poison but having both that many empty net goals against and you being on the ice for just about all of them is bizarroworld.

 

[My3Sons]

my buddy who tipped me off about the bratt extension and the severson trade just said sully and pittsburgh are mutually parting in the next 24 hours and that sully/nj will be announced within a week.

if he's wrong I won't post his shit again. but he's usually not wrong.

Is your buddy’s name Tom Marty or Jake?

 

[TrufleShufle]

That's GOTTA be an abnormally high stat lol

Even if the Devils were somehow as bad next year you'd figure Dougie would eat a lot of that plus minus poison but having both that many empty net goals against and you being on the ice for just about all of them is bizarroworld.

I mean someone has to be the winner, why not come from the team that wins the category for most times with a goalie pulled?

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I think that says just as much about the goalies.

Come on we got league average goaltending in EN situations, they did their job.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Come on we got league average goaltending in EN situations, they did their job.

I mean 27 allowed in 41 seem way above average. Or below? It's bad.

 

[Devils731]

I mean someone has to be the winner, why not come from the team that wins the category for most times with a goalie pulled?

View attachment 862351

Get scored on first and allow tons of empty net goals.

Not a recipe for success.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Empties against are so meaningless, or at least, totally non predictive as to not be worth even thinking about.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Get scored on first and allow tons of empty net goals.

Not a recipe for success.

Idk, I don't like to think that just because it didn't work this year means it won't ever work. Like all new strategies, the guys need time to really learn it and maybe it'll work.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Or, they determined that very few players who posses this toughness and talent are available to fill a teams top 6 - and you admitted that you have no answers, but expect people to earnestly engage you in debate about it's merits instead of pointing out the actual players who are moved for toughness reasons?

Listen, if you want to defend Toronto's management of the roster, I honestly don't care. Perhaps there was no viable option to acquire these types of players, though generally speaking it's not hard to envision that it could have been done by trading a big piece like Marner to change the dynamic of their top six.

Whether you want to argue how realistic it would have been to do, it doesn't change the fact that one of the big reasons they shit all over themselves in the playoffs is because their top six is soft. That's the only point I'm making. Then the usual suspects have to chime in with sarcastic strawmans about how "more toughness" means they need more bottom six goons who can't play hockey.

 

[tailfins]

https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/s/DVioL1bRVF

I can't think of any Devil in the top 6 that would do what Jamie Benn does in this clip aside from maybe Meier ^ but I can think of atleast 4 players in the top 6 that would of been flattened like Stankoven was. Granted Stankoven is probably the smallest player in the NHL right now but Benn didn't hesitate to stick up for his teammate with a big clean hit. That's the kind of grit the top 6 is missing. I don't care what people do after the play is dead mucking it up or whatever , it's about the play on ice when their is no stoppage that matters the most.

Dallas' line up is:

Robertson - Hintze - Pavelski
Marchment - Duchene - Seguin
Benn - Johnston - Stankoven

Debatable with is their second or third line (IMO). But, either way, you're only looking at Benn and Marchment as your "tough" guys in that top 9.

But, I do like that all of that team plays tough. Same with the Rangers. Not that I think the Rangers advance next series, but they are a way harder team to play against this year than even just last year.

To me, finding what the Devils need is to find whatever ingredients necessary for the entire team play with a bit more courage / snarl. It may just be adding one person, but it's about how the group reacts - not just how that one person plays.

 

[Call Me Al]

can we just extrapolate luke’s numbers away from smith? poor rookie had a bottom 5 dman in the league stapled to his side for majority of the season

 

[guitarguyvic]

They got Bertuzzi & Domi, who aren’t bullied, or soft.

You know what they also aren’t? Two-way forwards.

A stint with Boston and now Toronto has gotten Bertuzzi to acknowledge that that defense as a concept exists, so that’s nice, but “two way commitment” might be a stretch.

Same with Domi, there’s a reason he’s on his 7th team at 29.

Getting a gritty two-way player who can produce and play in the top six isn’t easy. They aren’t cheap unless you draft or develop them yourself, assuming you can get them.

Everyone who keeps pinning for this hypothetical ideal for the Devils has to put more thought into identifying who they actually are and how to actually get these types of players.

And not call players who are defensive and/or offensive black holes “two-way forwards” because they’re “gritty”.

Toronto couldn’t/ didn’t keep the better supporting forwards they have (Hyman, JVR, Kadri, Bunting, Mikheyev, etc) and continually struggles to rotate in new cheap forward depth.

The defense was always a weakness. That probably peaked when they put together a 38 yo Giordano, a 32 yo Muzzin, a yo 31 Brodie and a 27 yo Reilly in 21-22 but the first three are either out or cooked.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Who is doing the bolded other than the people creating that strawman to knock it down?

It's not easy attaining these types of players. Which is why some of us are concerned about the road forward with this group. I'm sure nobody here wants us to be the next iteration of the Maple Leafs.

 

[Devils731]

can we just extrapolate luke’s numbers away from smith? poor rookie had a bottom 5 dman in the league stapled to his side for majority of the season

These aren’t the raw numbers but Cordell posted this.

The difference is stark.

 

[NJDfan86]

Listen, if you want to defend Toronto's management of the roster, I honestly don't care. Perhaps there was no viable option to acquire these types of players, though generally speaking it's not hard to envision that it could have been done by trading a big piece like Marner to change the dynamic of their top six.

Whether you want to argue how realistic it would have been to do, it doesn't change the fact that one of the big reasons they shit all over themselves in the playoffs is because their top six is soft. That's the only point I'm making. Then the usual suspects have to chime in with sarcastic strawmans about how "more toughness" means they need more bottom six goons who can't play hockey.

I think it has little to do with their top 6 being soft, which others have argued as well.

If Toronto comes back to win this series, or they win a cup next year, are the players still soft?

 

[guitarguyvic]

I think it has little to do with their top 6 being soft, which others have argued as well.

If Toronto comes back to win this series, or they win a cup next year, are the players still soft?

I don't know. If the Islanders come back from down 3-0 against the Canes and make it to the Final, are the Islanders still mediocre and is Lou still a dinosaur?

 

[NJDfan86]

I don't know. If the Islanders come back from down 3-0 against the Canes and make it to the Final, are the Islanders still mediocre and is Lou still a dinosaur?

A telling deflection.

I think the Islanders are mediocre and Lou is a dinosaur - if they went on an Stanley Cup run I would still believe that until they proved me wrong the next year, otherwise I see the Covid bubble Montreal outcome.

 

[guitarguyvic]

A telling deflection.

I think the Islanders are mediocre and Lou is a dinosaur - if they went on an Stanley Cup run I would still believe that until they proved me wrong the next year, otherwise I see the Covid bubble Montreal outcome.

Not a deflection, it's meant to point out the fallacy in your hypothetical.

The Maple Leafs are just as unlikely to win the cup as the Islanders. And the answer to the question you posed is no different than the answer you just gave me.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Listen, if you want to defend Toronto's management of the roster, I honestly don't care. Perhaps there was no viable option to acquire these types of players, though generally speaking it's not hard to envision that it could have been done by trading a big piece like Marner to change the dynamic of their top six.

Whether you want to argue how realistic it would have been to do, it doesn't change the fact that one of the big reasons they shit all over themselves in the playoffs is because their top six is soft. That's the only point I'm making. Then the usual suspects have to chime in with sarcastic strawmans about how "more toughness" means they need more bottom six goons who can't play hockey.

The issue with Toronto’s roster construction has to do with cap allocation rather than who is soft or tough or whatever the hell you’re trying to make it about. It’s been gone over before, but have you looked at the defense they’re putting out there? It stinks, and it’s not for a lack of toughness. It’s just not good and they have little cap to improve it with.

The group lost a bunch of game 7s, so they’re soft bums who can’t possibly win anything. Marner seems to be not as effective in the playoffs, that’s probably true. They probably should’ve moved him if it was possible. But it probably wasn’t.

Matthews must’ve hit 20+ posts in his playoff career and is highly effective. Regardless, no one with a brain would move this player ever. The Tavares deal was a mistake in hindsight with the way the cap has moved. But I wouldn’t exactly call him soft or bad in the playoffs. He’s just past his prime and not worth his contract. And Willy is a stud they rightfully brought back and hasn’t shrunk in the playoff games I’ve seen him play.

 

[NJDfan86]

Not a deflection, it's meant to point out that you're question is a fallacy.

The Maple Leafs are just as unlikely to win the cup as the Islanders. And the answer to the question you posed is no different than the answer you just gave me.

Not particularly likely for either team, but you would be a fool to choose the Islanders this year or any in the immediate future over TML.

and the idea that the TML are not going to be a contender next year? How is that unlikely?

And at least the point of my hypothetical was to generate insight into how you decide who his soft, yours just changed the subject.

 

[guitarguyvic]

The issue with Toronto’s roster construction has to do with cap allocation rather than who is soft or tough or whatever the hell you’re trying to make it about. It’s been gone over before, but have you looked at the defense they’re putting out there? It stinks, and it’s not for a lack of toughness. It’s just not good and they have little cap to improve it with.

I've said the defense stinks too. They have several issues. Several things can be true at once, and someone can point out ONE of them without having to discuss ALL of them, ALL the time. Crazy, but true.

It also makes no sense to say X attributes of the players are not the reason for their struggles, it has to do with cap allocation...as if they aren't related. It's all connected.

The group lost a bunch of game 7s, so they’re soft bums who can’t possibly win anything. Marner seems to be not as effective in the playoffs, that’s probably true. They probably should’ve moved him if it was possible. But it probably wasn’t.

Matthews must’ve hit 20+ posts in his playoff career and is highly effective. Regardless, no one with a brain would move this player ever. The Tavares deal was a mistake in hindsight with the way the cap has moved. But I wouldn’t exactly call him soft or bad in the playoffs. He’s just past his prime and not worth his contract. And Willy is a stud they rightfully brought back and hasn’t shrunk in the playoff games I’ve seen him play.

Amazing how easily the bolded is handwaved away, like it's not a big part of the problem.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Not particularly likely for either team, but you would be a fool to choose the Islanders this year or any in the immediate future over TML.

and the idea that the TML are not going to be a contender next year? How is that unlikely?

And at least the point of my hypothetical was to generate insight into how you decide who his soft, yours just changed the subject.

I was typing up a response and then realized you said next year, I thought you said this year.

It's still a loaded fallacy. Without the context of any changes that might happen to their roster and coaching staff next year, what exactly do you think this proves? I would say that if they somehow won the Cup next year, it's likely that they made some kind of major overhaul to their roster. And there's a good chance that overhaul included infusing some "toughness" into the top 6.

 

[MB3]

Is your buddy’s name Tom Marty or Jake?

it's actually Tom Martyjake.

kind of an insanely good guess

These aren’t the raw numbers but Cordell posted this.

The difference is stark.

View attachment 862373

to be fair, doesn't this include all of his PP time?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I've said the defense stinks too. They have several issues. Several things can be true at once, and someone can point out ONE of them without having to discuss ALL of them, ALL the time. Crazy, but true.

It also makes no sense to say X attributes of the players are not the reason for their struggles, it has to do with cap allocation...as if they aren't related. It's all connected.


Amazing how easily the bolded is handwaved away, like it's not a big part of the problem.

Their grave error was keeping a player that has put up 509 points in his last 417 games with a +111 and a top 3 finish in the Selke. For whatever issues he’s had, let’s not act like it was clear he had to be moved and he hasn’t been one of the best players in the NHL.

 

[NJDfan86]

I was typing up a response and then realized you said next year, I thought you said this year.

It's still a loaded fallacy. Without the context of any changes that might happen to their roster and coaching staff next year, what exactly do you think this proves? I would say that if they somehow won the Cup next year, it's likely that they made some kind of major overhaul to their roster. And there's a good chance that overhaul included infusing some "toughness" into the top 6.

you ever going to answer if someone who is soft can change that reputation and how, or you going to keep spinning around your hypothetical?

 

[Devils731]

it's actually Tom Martyjake.

kind of an insanely good guess


to be fair, doesn't this include all of his PP time?

The Luke numbers are only 5 on 5.

Amazing how easily the bolded is handwaved away, like it's not a big part of the problem.

Last year Marner had 14 points in 11 playoff games and was +7.

I didn’t watch the Maple Leafs games closely but was he a problem or a strength last year for them?