Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason edition

[Guttersniped]

Here's my grades for all the goalies from the day after the season ended

Bernier: B-

Blackwood: F

Daws: C- (I’m doing a bell curve here. If not for his situation it would be no better than a D-).

Schmid: D- (another bell curve that’s probably worthy of an F).

Wedgewood: F

Gillies: F-

Hammond: G as he’s past an F.

Daws should probably be an F+, but considering what he was, a goalie that had already played more NHL games at his age as of the day the season ended than Martin Brodeur had at the same age, I think I can be softer on him. I think he was extremely overrated around here, just because he was better than Gillies, Hammond, Schmid and even Blackwood.

Just reading this list once again makes me not wanna see ANY of these goalies iced here next year. Well, honestly I'd rather see Bernier than any of the others. My only issue with him is that he's probably toast due to age and injury. Fitz wasn't even sure if he would be ready by the start of training camp when he gave his end of season presser. Who knows how he's progressing now though? He might already be back on the ice skating, but I doubt he's doing much more than that.

I have no interest in seeing Daws this year in the NHL. He can play in the preseason, but if he's on the ice for a single regular season game it either means we had a bunch of injuries again or Blackwood predictably BOMBED to start the year and we waived him (like Cory in November of 2019) and had no choice but to bring up Daws to be the backup. I actually think Blackwood might get picked up on waivers, because he'd be on an expiring contract and not one with over 2 years left at $6 million per. If he were waived and claimed we really shouldn't give a f*** anyway at that point, as that was his last chance and we weren't gonna qualify him next offseason for $3 million for how poorly he performed on his current deal.

Blackwood isn’t getting waived, you’re chained to him unless there’s a trade.

 

[JimEIV]

I came back from a party where I had a few drinks or wouldn’t have jumped into this so much. I don’t care that you think Jack with score 70 points for some reason next year and, no, I don’t want to bet on it.

I don’t find debating very entertaining or productive since you don’t tend to have good faith arguments and you never acknowledge when anyone else is right about anything.

By not respecting the argument of the other people and not putting intellectual honesty above the debate you drag other people down into a very hostile petty debate spiral that just makes everything dumber and ruder. I don’t know why, when you discuss things you have also sorts of good observations. But a debate starts and then it’s tortured, cherry picked stat time and tunnel vision and never say die, argue in circles for eternity.

I’m not shitting on Mercer, he’s a delight and I have high hopes for the kid but he was a sheltered young rookie and you’re pointing to a small hot run bolstered Bratt. Mercer has the makings of someone who can be good defensively but he wasn’t good defensively at all yet, though I believe it will come.

The goal is to be more competitive next season. It’s counterproductive to trade away our most experienced center, who played the tough minutes last season and had a breakthrough season as a two-way center, and replace him with a kid who played a part of one season at center and struggled defensively.*

Even if you’re high on Mercer, you’re still taking a step back as now you have to wait years for this kid to mature as a center while you dump a two-way center who scored 60 points in 70 games.

We also lose the advantage of having depth at the position, when the better teams have extra C/Ws (Tampa being the best example) that give them greater flexibility in line-ups and the ability to survive injuries to key forwards.

People are getting unsigned winger RFAs for 2nds and prospects/rando players and you want to ship off one of our best players for one. You’re one approach to that argument is 1) endlessly undersell Nico 2) endlessly oversell Mercer.

I don’t want to quibble endlessly about those two players. I reject the premise that trading a young center signed long term for a unsigned RFA winger is a good move. Why grotesquely overpay and make our team way worse at the most important skater position when the market price for those players has been set low. (Those unsigned RFAs need contracts too, and they will pricy and they tend to be shorter term deals.)


*Of course you only discuss point production when it comes to centers except when Jack was scoring a lot and we were bleeding goals. Then you expressed a newfound interest in two-way play and weren’t just talking about raw production. (Zacha’s defense for instance never seemed to come up.)

When you write post like this I don't know what to do...you said at least 4 times that you don't want to debate...and I am very happy to respect that....

But you can't seriously write a big long post with multiple points telling me why I'm wrong and not expect me to respond in some way....How do you expect me to respond. Do you expect me not to? Do you honestly expect me to just leave it alone?

Are you interested in discussing at all? Or do you really think once you make your points That's it...final word.

I honestly don't get where you are coming from?

 

[Bleedred]

Blackwood isn’t getting waived, you’re chained to him unless there’s a trade.

If he has a very poor start you don't think they'd hesitate to waive him? I certainly do.

It would be the end of his time here anyway because he'd either get claimed on waivers or he wouldn't and we just wouldn't tender him an offer next year because his qualifying offer would be probably worth 2.5-3 times more than the way he performed on this deal.

If he doesn't have a good season I'd have to think he's done here and that's the end of him.

 

[Comparison Ford]

Very thoughtful post.

From my perspective I thought everything with Lou’s replacement was handled poorly. It seemed bitter and ugly for a couple of years...the transition to new was done in a very spiteful way and publicly...from the #13, to twitter, to the dress code to the grooming it was all done in a big FU kind of way....many of the fans picked up on this and instead of treating with skepticism they seem to embrace it almost in a totalalitarian kind of party line way. . Truth be told I can't stand seeing Nico wearing 13...the symbolism is just too much for me....first ever NJ #1OA pissing on McMullen's grave how nice....as irrational as it sounds that's how I feel.

Nothing wrong with embracing change, it's a fact of life....but tact, respect and gentlemen lile behavior has always been a trade mark of hockey....and these f***ing interlopers said screw that burn all the bridges.

i really do miss the tradition. it was great to be known for something. whether it was trapping, grooming, lou being kinda a dinosaur, etc. i get it, it was kinda whacky and probably not too important, but at least we had an identity.

now we are simply irrelevant in the NHL.

 

[JimEIV]

You act like it is so farfetched that Nico can't improve as he gets older. In your mind Nico is a finished product & that last season him going on a 70 point pace was just a fluke. If we had Mackinnon you would of traded him before his breakout.

I definitely think he can improve...I also think him going on a "70" point pace (oh boy) had more to with the extra minutes and situation he got this season and an increase in overall league scoring....I don't believe he would've or could've gotten the same minutes and situations with Jack in the lineup for full season.

That's another thunk I hold firmly to...if you are getting solid first line minutes and scoring like a 2nd liner you are not doing well no matter what the actual number or pace is.

 

[Better Call Sal]

i really do miss the tradition. it was great to be known for something. whether it was trapping, grooming, lou being kinda a dinosaur, etc. i get it, it was kinda whacky and probably not too important, but at least we had an identity.

now we are simply irrelevant in the NHL.

When we start winning again, whenever that will be, tradition of some form will return.

They often tend to go hand in hand.



"Why do you idiots do that after we've lost?"

"It's for good luck."

"Maybe we should do this before we lose!"

 

[JimEIV]

i really do miss the tradition. it was great to be known for something. whether it was trapping, grooming, lou being kinda a dinosaur, etc. i get it, it was kinda whacky and probably not too important, but at least we had an identity.

now we are simply irrelevant in the NHL.

Speeking of which...I think it is hilarious watching Tampa alternate between a 1-1-3 and 1-2-2 trap every other shift in these finals....

Damn lightening ruining hockey! Lol.

 

[Bankers Box]

Weren't we having a discussion just the other day about why more people don't join/post? Well, it's probably because of annoying bullshit arguments like this that are stirred up by the same posters all the time. A person would have to be insane to want to walk into this madhouse.

Exactly.

This thread has been garbage for a few pages now due to the same boring argument.

It really only takes a few posters to derail any sort of constructive and interesting conversation.

 

[glenwo2]

And you're even more full of shit on Bratt cause I never once said at bad word about him ask @glenwo2 he would know....I think he keeps a rolodex of every word spoken about Bratt.

I don't recall you saying anything bad, per say, but that's probably because the focus of your ire was more toward Jack being "disgraceful" or something.

 

[severian]

Let's pour some more fuel on the Nico fire. Did you guys see this?

2017 NHL Redraft: Makar at No. 1, three current Stars players in top six | NHL.com

Defenseman moves up three spots; Heiskanen, Robertson, Oettinger rise; Swayman jumps from No. 111 to No. 8

www.nhl.com

 

[OmNomNom]

ahhhhhhh who caresssssssss

we've sucked, there is some optimism, but we could be better. the end

 

[JimEIV]

Let's pour some more fuel on the Nico fire. Did you guys see this?

2017 NHL Redraft: Makar at No. 1, three current Stars players in top six | NHL.com

Defenseman moves up three spots; Heiskanen, Robertson, Oettinger rise; Swayman jumps from No. 111 to No. 8

www.nhl.com

That's what kicked this all off

 

[severian]

That's what kicked this all off

I'm always late to the party. Hahaha.

 

[Classic Devil]

I've been here for almost 14 years and he's EXACTLY the same as he's always been. The only thing that changes is the player he harps on.

I remember when it was Andy Greene.

 

[StevenToddIves]

288 pages? This thread is closing in on becoming a Dostoevsky novel, only with a great deal less self-reflection.

 

[Guttersniped]

Weren't we having a discussion just the other day about why more people don't join/post? Well, it's probably because of annoying bullshit arguments like this that are stirred up by the same posters all the time. A person would have to be insane to want to walk into this madhouse.

 

[JimEIV]

I remember when it was Andy Greene.

There was definitely a period I definitely didn't like Greene....Oduya, Sean Brown Brookbank, and Mike Motteau too around at the same time. It felt like we couldn't address our defense for years after the Niedermeyer debacle and we were picking every random piece of garbage. (Just for the record, we were)

I admited I was wrong on Greene. I actually gave CJ credit for supporting him during his tough time...but remember Greene wasn't a young pup he came to us....he was 24 and looked terrible his first 3 years ...he was 27 by the time he actually started looking like he could be a regular...so yeah maybe I I should've had a little more patience on that one ...

But honestly if another 4 year NCAA player came to this team and looked terrible at 26 years old and couldn't make his way on the roster....I would probably have the same exact take....useless player. I think that take would be correct more often than not.on 26/27 year old playing spot duty.

Then Volchenkov who literally couldn't skate and Tallinder who shit the bed after a short period of time...

And that context is actually really important...that is exactly why adding Gelinas, Merrill, Larrson, Santini, Severson, was important.

 

[goonybird]

I watch every game 3 times in slow motion and I can say that Nico and Jack move very slowly in each viewing

 

[JimEIV]

I watch every game 3 times in slow motion and I can say that Nico and Jack move very slowly in each viewing

I do occasionally watch games 3 times. I don't do it as much as I used to because the team is so bad...but I used watch the live game, the replay and the abbreviate MSG Encore edition most games.

Not as enthusiastic about it when you lose every game though.

My favorite thing to do was to find were the breakdown began outside the the zone on the rush...sometimes it was tough because of camera angles but it always amazes me how often I could find goals against that originated in the offensive zone because someone made a careless play and didn't take care of the puck. And everyone would be blaming the defense or the goaltender in the GDT and make believe their favorite player didn't turnover the puck 3 feet inside the blue line or that the defender should've done something....

 

[Stephen Gionta]

Let's pour some more fuel on the Nico fire. Did you guys see this?

2017 NHL Redraft: Makar at No. 1, three current Stars players in top six | NHL.com

Defenseman moves up three spots; Heiskanen, Robertson, Oettinger rise; Swayman jumps from No. 111 to No. 8

www.nhl.com

Yes. It's nonsense.

Makar and Heiskanen are pretty much the undisputed 1 and 2. But then picks 3-5 would realistically be any combination of Robertson/Hischier/Petterson. I personally would go Hischier 3, Robertson 4, and Petterson 5.

I just think two way centers of the Bergeron/O'Reilly/Kopitar/Barkov ilk are so valuable. Which is what Hischier is. Which is why I think he would still be the first forward off the board in a 2017 re-draft.

 

[NJDevs26]

288 pages? This thread is closing in on becoming a Dostoevsky novel, only with a great deal less self-reflection.

Once the SCF ends and offseason news actually starts happening we'll have offseason part two thread - and probably get to 7000 posts by FA

Tbh I don't know why length of thread matters though, it's not like if we had 7 offseason threads with 1000 posts (like the old days) anyone would be more likely to read them than one 7000 post thread. If there's a super long thread you're generally only reading the most recent few pages anyway. Not every thread is superlong either, just the team and more popular threads.

It doesn't even help much to have the old thousand post threads since you guys rip out a couple hundred posts a day when you get your dander up.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The funny thing to me is seeing the complete 180 on Adam Larsson as soon as he leaves. Larsson was the original disgraceful overrated top pick who was a waste of a top pick. I'm pretty sure Jim was doing cartwheels when that trade first happens.

Fast forward to last summer and every couple of days we're seeing posts about how we should give Larsson a big ass contract in free agency because he's "exactly the kind of player we need" and that the Hall trade was bad, actually. Shockingly transparent.

 

[Devils731]

The funny thing to me is seeing the complete 180 on Adam Larsson as soon as he leaves. Larsson was the original disgraceful overrated top pick who was a waste of a top pick. I'm pretty sure Jim was doing cartwheels when that trade first happens.

Fast forward to last summer and every couple of days we're seeing posts about how we should give Larsson a big ass contract in free agency because he's "exactly the kind of player we need" and that the Hall trade was bad, actually. Shockingly transparent.

People like the idea of what they think Larsson brings but not the reality of what Larsson does.

Siegenthaler is better at doing what people think Larsson does.

 

[StevenToddIves]

Once the SCF ends and offseason news actually starts happening we'll have offseason part two thread - and probably get to 7000 posts by FA

Tbh I don't know why length of thread matters though, it's not like if we had 7 offseason threads with 1000 posts (like the old days) anyone would be more likely to read them than one 7000 post thread. If there's a super long thread you're generally only reading the most recent few pages anyway. Not every thread is superlong either, just the team and more popular threads.

It doesn't even help much to have the old thousand post threads since you guys rip out a couple hundred posts a day when you get your dander up.

It's okay, I really enjoy Dostoevsky.

 

[JimEIV]

The funny thing to me is seeing the complete 180 on Adam Larsson as soon as he leaves. Larsson was the original disgraceful overrated top pick who was a waste of a top pick. I'm pretty sure Jim was doing cartwheels when that trade first happens.

Fast forward to last summer and every couple of days we're seeing posts about how we should give Larsson a big ass contract in free agency because he's "exactly the kind of player we need" and that the Hall trade was bad, actually. Shockingly transparent.

I don't think that is a completely accurate portrayal.

You guys were always trying to reframe my opinion in real time as it was happening cause you didn't like what I was saying...I always called him #4 Dman and a waste of a #4OA pick....
And like directly after I call him a #4 this board goes "Jim called him a bust"...I would talk about his lack of offensive awareness and lack of footspeed and that would prevent him from being a top pairing Dman and you guys would say I just hate Larsson. It never made any sense to me. Can we really not be honest about what we think we see? The Smith thing is going a little that way too but I think know how bad his skating really is and just don't want to say...I will

I was happy when he was traded for Hall, how could you not be? I do think he's what we need ... I don't think those things are mutually exclusive?