Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Devilsgrl35]

Locking up Timo and Haula before free agency would be awesome so we know exactly how much cap space we have to play with on July 1.

 

[JK3]

Travis Green?!, Is there a term that’s bigger than meh to describe this? What happened to Sarge?

 

[MB3]

No he wasn't.

He was never stellar at anything that involved coaching. That was his first year on the staff and the PP dropped astronomically from the year before. I'm pretty sure it was DEAD LAST that year in the regular season.

That was a big reason for the down years offensively from guys like Elias and Gomez, who both had 57/55 points that year and played 81 and 80 games. Joe Nieuwendyk also had a down year, but bounced back considerably the next season in Toronto.

You're really quick to attribute the life being zapped out of the offense to MacLean when every member of that team who's spoken said that Pat Burns stepped in day-one and said we're moving away from the Ftorek/Constantine high-flying systems and playing a grueling, slowed down slog of a hockey game.

Gomez and Elias have both said on Spittin Chiclets that they loved Burns looking back on it, but hated playing for him because he was the type of coach to scold you for scoring if you happened to carry the puck in yourself on the way to through the neutral zone.

 

[Darkauron]

Travis Green?!, Is there a term that’s bigger than meh to describe this? What happened to Sarge?

Nothing happened to Sarge. He is still an Assistant Coach like Green.

Not sure how others are confused about Sarge

 

[Devilsgrl35]

Perhaps the organization just wants Sarge to keep working with the kids in Utica. I would love to see him get promoted though.

 

[Bleedred]

You're really quick to attribute the life being zapped out of the offense to MacLean when every member of that team who's spoken said that Pat Burns stepped in day-one and said we're moving away from the Ftorek/Constantine high-flying systems and playing a grueling, slowed down slog of a hockey game.

Gomez and Elias have both said on Spittin Chiclets that they loved Burns looking back on it, but hated playing for him because he was the type of coach to scold you for scoring if you happened to carry the puck in yourself on the way to through the neutral zone.

The power play was pretty mediocre to bad the entire time MacLean was here. Even after Burns left.

The power play is pretty bad everywhere that MacLean runs it.

MacLean was a very bad assistant coach.

Perhaps the organization just wants Sarge to keep working with the kids in Utica. I would love to see him get promoted though.

When did he get sent back to Utica?

 

[Devilsgrl35]

The power play was pretty mediocre to bad the entire time MacLean was here. Even after Burns left.

The power play is pretty bad everywhere that MacLean runs it.

MacLean was a very bad assistant coach.


When did he get sent back to Utica?

I thought that's where he was. My bad if he wasn't. I probably forgot or completely missed his role.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

Travis Green?!, Is there a term that’s bigger than meh to describe this? What happened to Sarge?

I'm not happy about this but mostly because I'm so tired of these retreads in the NHL as a whole.

 

[Triumph]

You're really quick to attribute the life being zapped out of the offense to MacLean when every member of that team who's spoken said that Pat Burns stepped in day-one and said we're moving away from the Ftorek/Constantine high-flying systems and playing a grueling, slowed down slog of a hockey game.

Gomez and Elias have both said on Spittin Chiclets that they loved Burns looking back on it, but hated playing for him because he was the type of coach to scold you for scoring if you happened to carry the puck in yourself on the way to through the neutral zone.

Constantine did not run a high-flying system, and the Devils scored just fine at ES in 2003 - the Devils were a middle-of-the-pack offense despite being -24 from the average team in PP goals. I'm not going to run all the numbers here but I think the Devils were solidly in the top 10 in ES goals in 2003 - maybe fewer than they should've had, given all the firepower, but certainly not completely shackled.

 

[MB3]

Constantine did not run a high-flying system, and the Devils scored just fine at ES in 2003 - the Devils were a middle-of-the-pack offense despite being -24 from the average team in PP goals. I'm not going to run all the numbers here but I think the Devils were solidly in the top 10 in ES goals in 2003 - maybe fewer than they should've had, given all the firepower, but certainly not completely shackled.

A few hours ago when you told me 5v5 scoring and PP success were unrelated, now they're being used as an example of why MacLean was a bad assistant coach in 03?

(edited to sound less like a prick)

 

[Better Call Sal]

Nothing happened to Sarge. He is still an Assistant Coach like Green.

Not sure how others are confused about Sarge

I think people are running with Green replacing Brunette as an associate coach, but I don’t think that is his confirmed title. Just that he’s replacing Brunette on staff.

I also think people are hoping Sarge gets the shot to run the PP given he was mentioned as a possible candidate internally to do so.

 

[Normal Devil]

One thing I like about the Green hire is that he was apparently in pretty high demand with serious interest from Toronto, Calgary & NJ. Got to like his previous head coaching experience. I think I'm general he's a quality fire. Hopefully he ends up fitting like a glove in NJ.

 

[Triumph]

So a few hours ago when you told me 5v5 scoring and PP success were unrelated did you mean “but only when they don’t fit my narrative”? that seems like a disclaimer you should share.

No, not at all. What I left out of that account is that young players tend to be better at ES and worse on the power play and this tends to reverse as players age. Therefore we probably wouldn't expect the Devils to have a great power play last season. In 2015-16, the trend reversed - the Devils had an old team with a decent power play, but featured an atrocious ES offense.

Moreover, the Devils of the early 2000s had a history of being good on the power play - their ranks were 4th, 3rd, 1st, and 9th the previous 4 years. While they did have some personnel changes in those years - losing Mogilny off the 2nd unit after 2001 and Arnott + Sykora off the 1st by the end of 2002 - I don't think that should've been enough to send them to last place. I suspect the last place finish was a mix of bad luck and poor coaching - they did have 13 power play goals in 24 playoff games which is much better - but I don't think Pat Burns would've had anything at all to do with the downturn on the PP.

 

[Bleedred]

I forgot to add, I'm much happier with a Travis Green hiring at assistant coach than I would have been if we had promoted Kevin Dineen to assistant coach to the NHL team.

 

[MadDevil]

I generally don't care about assistant/associate coaches so I have no real feelings about hiring Green. I would be a bit wary if shit goes sideways and he ends up being Ruff's replacement because he pretty much sucked in Vancouver from what I remember.

 

[Maine Fan]

Why was it time to move on from Ruff after we smashed expectations and had one of the best seasons in franchise history?

Because with this team, last second-season, they went as far as they did, almost without a coach. To go father this coming season into round 3, they need a better second-season coach than Ruff. Brunette could have helped Ruff, but it still would be tough with Ruff. Green, as a replacement for Brunette, is a downgrade, IMO. To get into round 3 in the second season, this team needs better coaching than Ruff, my opinion.

 

[Bleedred]

N. Bench baby!

Devils Name Scott Stevens and Adam Oates as Co-Coaches (Published 2014)

General Manager Lou Lamoriello, after firing Peter DeBoer and his assistant Dave Barr, said he would also be on the bench for an unspecified period.

www.nytimes.com

The N. bench is my favorite staff name in the history of ever.

I remember how hilarious I thought it was when I first saw that on hockey reference.

I’ve still never heard it called that before, outside of hockey reference and on here after we kind of adopted the name after hockey reference naming it that.

If the Rangers or Islanders (or Predators) had their own incarnation of an N. Bench, would they also call it the N. Bench cause they come from a place that starts with N? Or would they have to call it something else cause there’s now already been an N. Bench?

If it happened with the Sharks would it be the S. Bench?

Or P. Bench for Flyers or Pens?

 

[Bleedred]

I still believe Ruff is on a short-ish leash.

If we don’t make the playoffs this year (I think we will, but for hypothetical sake) I don’t think Ruff coaches here in 24-25.

The bar has now been raised. And yes, if we didn’t make the playoffs this year I think it was beyond obvious he wouldn’t have coached here next year.

It won’t be like Hynes getting another year after missing following his unexpected playoff berth. The team wasn’t supposed to do anything and exceeded expectations in 2017-2018. We exceeded expectations this past year, but I do believe the expectations for Ruff staying was a playoff berth of some kind.

That said, I still think we’ll make the playoffs.

I could see Pittsburgh and the Islanders swapping spots in the Metro.

The Atlantic may be the same, but I could also see Buffalo swapping places with either Boston (who could just miss out) or potentially Florida if they stumble again and there is no second half surge this time.

 

[Guttersniped]

Constantine did not run a high-flying system, and the Devils scored just fine at ES in 2003 - the Devils were a middle-of-the-pack offense despite being -24 from the average team in PP goals. I'm not going to run all the numbers here but I think the Devils were solidly in the top 10 in ES goals in 2003 - maybe fewer than they should've had, given all the firepower, but certainly not completely shackled.

We were 14th overall with 216 GF (2.63 GF/GP).

We were dead last with 36 PP GF (0.44 PPGF/GP) and 11.9% PP. And we had 7 SH GF.

So 173 ES GF.

So yes, we were 14th due to our grotesquely bad PP, we were actually 6th in ES Goals. (The PP was grotesquely bad in the regular season.)

And this was the height of the dead puck/“Devils ruined hockey” era before the rule changes.

GF/GP were at a 2.65 average, only 2003-04 (2.57), 2001-02 (2.62), 1998-99 (2.63), and 1997-98 (2.64) were lower since 1956.

This season 16 teams have +200 ES goals and 3 have +230 ES goals. (We one of them with 231, including 197 5v5. The Kraken had 209 5v5.)

1) DET: 269 GF (#1) - 76 PPG (#4) - 11 SHG = 182*
2) COL: 251 GF (#5) - 68 PPG (#8) - 5 SHG = 178*
3) OTT: 263 GF (#3) - 83 PPG (#2) - 4 SHG = 176
4) BOS: 245 GF (#6T) - 59 PPG (#13) - 10 SHG = 176*
5) DAL: 245 GF (#6T) - 62 PPG (#12) - 9 SHG = 174**
6) NJD: 216 GF (#14) - 36 PPG (#30) - 7 SHG = 173
7) VAN: 264 GF (#2) - 87 PPG (#1) - 12 SHG = 165**
8) STL: 253 GF (#4) - 80 PPG (#3) - 11 SHG = 162*
9) TOR: 236 GF (#8) - 63 PPG (#11) - 11 SHG = 162*
10) EDM: 231 GF (#9) - 56 PPG (#19) - 13 SHG = 162*
11) CHI: 207 GF (#19) - 39 PPG (#29) - 8 SHG = 160
12) MTL: 206 GF (#20) - 44 PPG (#28) - 2 SHG = 160
13) WSH: 224 GF (#11T) - 57 PPG (#17) - 8 SHG = 159*
14) PHI: 211 GF (#17) - 47 PPG (#27) - 8 SHG = 156**
15) ATL: 226 GF (#10) - 64 PPG (#10) - 8 SHG = 154
16) NYI: 224 GF (#11T) - 58 PPG (#16) - 12 SHG = 154*
17) NYR: 210 GF (#18) - 55 PPG (#21) - 8 SHG = 147
18) PHX: 204 GF (#21) - 55 PPG (#20) - 4 SHG = 145
19) TBL: 219 GF (#13) - 70 PPG (#6) - 6 SHG = 143**
20) LAK: 203 GF (#22T) - 52 PPG (#23) - 8 SHG = 143
21) SJS: 214 GF (#15) - 68 PPG (#7) - 5 SHG = 141
22) ANA: 203 GF (#22T) - 56 PPG (#18) - 8 SHG = 139
23) MIN: 198 GF (#24) - 52 PPG (#22) - 9 SHG = 137
24) CGY: 186 GF (#27) - 47 PPG (#26) - 5 SHG = 134
25) BUF: 190 GF (#25) - 51 PPG (#21) - 8 SHG = 131
26) CBJ: 213 GF (#16) - 71 PPG (#5) - 12 SHG = 130
27) NSH: 183 GF (#28) - 58 PPG (#14) - 2 SHG = 123
28) PIT: 189 GF (#26) - 66 PPG (#9) - 3 SHG = 120
29) FLA: 176 GF (#29) - 49 PPG (#25) - 7 SHG = 120
30) CAR: 171 GF (#30) - 58 PPG (#15) - 6 SHG = 107
*First Round Playoff losers
**Second Round Playoff losers
Conference Final teams

Spoiler: Our PP did do better in the ‘03 playoffs

Not that much better, but better.

 

[BronzeAgeDevilsFan]

Locking up Timo and Haula before free agency would be awesome so we know exactly how much cap space we have to play with on July 1.

who do you think we would go after? I don't think we need any big signings,

 

[My3Sons]

I still believe Ruff is on a short-ish leash.

If we don’t make the playoffs this year (I think we will, but for hypothetical sake) I don’t think Ruff coaches here in 24-25.

The bar has now been raised. And yes, if we didn’t make the playoffs this year I think it was beyond obvious he wouldn’t have coached here next year.

It won’t be like Hynes getting another year after missing following his unexpected playoff berth. The team wasn’t supposed to do anything and exceeded expectations in 2017-2018. We exceeded expectations this past year, but I do believe the expectations for Ruff staying was a playoff berth of some kind.

That said, I still think we’ll make the playoffs.

I could see Pittsburgh and the Islanders swapping spots in the Metro.

The Atlantic may be the same, but I could also see Buffalo swapping places with either Boston (who could just miss out) or potentially Florida if they stumble again and there is no second half surge this time.

Does Ruff need a new contract?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I'm not happy about this but mostly because I'm so tired of these retreads in the NHL as a whole.

Possibly the most overblown thing around the league. Wow a guy who was the head coach previously of another team was hired as teams assistant coach over a year later. Like any occupation experience carry’s weight. Yet there’s never nearly as many retreads as people make out there is


Of the current 32 head coaches, 18 are first time NHL head coaches. As in have never been the head coach of another team. That’s 56%. Does include guys like Brunette who have been interim coaches (not sure if there’s anyone other than him that’s done that).

That’s a pretty damn good percentage. Given how valued experience is, especially in high paying positions of importance. People whining about retreads are just being dumb.

 

[Devilsgrl35]

who do you think we would go after? I don't think we need any big signings,

Nobody specific in mind. Depth defense and bottom 6 will probably be the target. The core and role players are in tact. I don't think this years free agent class is very good.

 

[Bleedred]

Does Ruff need a new contract?

We don’t really know yet.

We knew his deal was expiring after this year, but I’d imagine he’s already been extended.

We just don’t know what the terms are.

Could be for two years or it could just be for one.

It’s possible it’s for 3 years, but I’d bet it’s no longer than that.

 

[Guttersniped]

Constantine did not run a high-flying system, and the Devils scored just fine at ES in 2003 - the Devils were a middle-of-the-pack offense despite being -24 from the average team in PP goals. I'm not going to run all the numbers here but I think the Devils were solidly in the top 10 in ES goals in 2003 - maybe fewer than they should've had, given all the firepower, but certainly not completely shackled.

When Lou replaced Larry he also fired assistants Slava Fetisov and Jay Leach*. Fetisov didn’t coach after that and Jay Leach popped up as Caps assistant for a few years.

*He’s obviously not the one who played until 2013 before coaching, but this is Jay Leach’s older cousin with the same name.

John Cunniff was an assistant too, up from a long run with the Rats, but he left at some point as he was battling throat cancer, he passed away in May 2002 at age 57.

Kurt Kleinendorst popped back up as an assistant. He had replaced Bobby Carpenter on Robinson’s staff in 2000-01 for one season. He was working as a scout too, he eventually started coaching the Lowell Devils in 2006 as his next coaching gig *shrug*. He was a head coach for a couple AHL team before going to the DEL.

I assume Kleinendorst ran the PP. I’ve never heard “high flying” and Constantine used together, his rep was as a defense first guy. (I guess he was supposed to be a taskmaster compared to Larry but he did also let his stars do their thing in San Jose & Pitt.) I don’t actually remember that much about his short run other than not scoring against the Canes in the playoffs always sucks.

Constantine was 35 when he became the HC in San Jose and Sharks had the 58 point jump that season. He was an early analytics guy to apparently.

Constantine knows NHL players aren’t sold on analytics.

“When I was Jacques Lemaire’s assistant coach, I had all these stats. Jacques, whom I think is one of the top five coaches ever, said ‘this is awesome, such good stats and great information,’” said Constantine. “So I said ‘what you use these with the Wild? Jacques said ‘hell, no.’

“Jacques said they’d just argue that none of the stats are correct. The higher the level, the more resistant the players are. You’ll say a player had two hits, and he’ll argue and say he had five hits. Pros get very sensitive about it.”

Lol classic Jacques

2016 article

Hockey World: Ex-NHL coach Kevin Constantine was an analytics pioneer

While baby-faced hockey executives John Chayka of the Arizona Coyotes and Kyle Dubas of the Toronto Maple Leafs are analytics disciples when the eyeball test of a p…

edmontonjournal.com

This is a Dec 1997 Devils vs Pens game where Constantine, down 3-0, pulls his goalie with ~12 minutes left when they get a PP. Does it work? Watch and find out!