Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Guttersniped]

Did any of those seconds that we so desperately needed actually turn out to be anything good. I’ve looked in the past and I don’t think they did.

Bottom line is this. Shero got here with shit players worth no trade value. His scouting department I’m sure was in no better condition as well as player development throughout the organization. If you think that can all be changed in short amount of time well i dunno what to tell you. Fast forward a few years with better trade chips you’re able to acquire better returns. To go from trading scraps for peanuts to trading hall palm Coleman for actual value. Smh

This isn’t over the top defense of Shero either it’s just being honest on what he did here. He did more good then bad that’s for sure.

The were very recent. I mean four players from the 2021 2nd Rd have played in the NHL and the only one with a significant number of GP was 20 years old when he was drafted.

A player taken from the Subban and Gusev trade made the Elite Prospects Top 100.

NOTE: I listed where all our traded players ranked for fun, I’m not criticizing the later trades at all.

Typically, if you’re trying to rebuild, you try to draft more in the early rounds. Shero never tried to make that happen. Trading away a bunch of 2nds, while getting no extra early picks, wasn’t a feasible plan.

We traded “Hall, Palms, Coleman” because the Summer of Shero failed, so we’re right back at the point of contention. That failure is knock against him. It was real late in his run so it isn’t Lou’s fault.

Well Schneider and his contract remained a killer but Shero can be held responsible for his own implosion.

Elite Prospects Top 100 Drafted Prospects:
Our Prospects:
100/ Seamus Casey, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
19/ Simon Nemec, 6.5 FV Tier (14-21)
8/ Luke Hughes, 7 FV Tier (7-13)
All Our Traded Picks:
85/ DET Shia Buium LHD, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2021 NJD 2nd Rd #36 (Gusev trade)
82/ MIN Marat Khusnutdinov C, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2020 NJD 2nd Rd #37 (Subban trade)
69/ COL Sean Behrens LHD, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2021 NYI 2nd Rd #61 (Greene > Graves trade)
28/ SJS Quentin Musty LW, 6 FV Tier (22-28)
2023 NJD 1st #26 (Meier trade)

Pronman’s Top 168 U23 players:
148/ Gritsyuk
132/ Foote
124/ Filmon
119/ Holtz

Our Traded Picks:
114/ MIN Marat Khusnutdinov C
Middle of the lineup player (#7 on MIN’s list, who were 10th)
87/ SJS Quentin Musty LW
Middle of the lineup player (#5 on SJS’s list, who were 13th)
NR/ DET Shia Buium LHD
Projected to Play Games (#11 on DET’s list, who were 8th)
NR/ COL Sean Behrens LHD
Has a Chance to Play (NR on Colorado, who was 25th)
Also
NR/ VGK Lukas Cormier LHD
Projected to Play Games (#5 on Vegas, who was 26th)
2020 NJD 3rd Rd #68 (Gusev trade)
NR/Bobby Brink RW
Has a Chance to Play (NR on Philly, who was 11th)
2019 NJD 2nd Rd #34 (Subban Trade)

 

[glenwo2]

I think Jim's point is that he got really lucky with a 6th round pick.

While, statistically, the chances of finding an NHL player (let alone someone of Bratt's level) in the 6th round are extremely slim, and therefore one might want to give a lot of credit to whomever made the call ... I think it's also very fair (and more accurate) to say that the Devils got very lucky ... if they thought he might develop into anything close to what he is ... they wouldn't have drafted 7 players before him. And they also drafted and then traded that player for Beau Bennett. So another opportunity to have drafted Bratt earlier.

So ... yeah ... they clearly didn't think they had much there

Hello there, new person I see for the first time here on this boards (despite the fact your accoung was created in 2010).

Nice to meet you.

 

[Guadana]

Thats fun how people trying to take failure of Shero and turn into something good. Even if he didn't make trades. He was so bad and not pro active for his retool strategy, that help Fitzy to rebuild the team in a couple of years. And now we have only two 2OA Nico and Jack, who were picked after failed seasons, and Bratt. Respect for scouting department who was smart enough to pick good guys, when Shero didn't put his hand on the picks.

Average, above average, good job. Is it the same guys who voted for Stillman as top 12/14 prospect? CHL scout who drafted McLeod, Smith and Stillman was hired by Shero too. Fitzy made mistake to not fired him immediately. Stillman, Pytlick, Clarke, Okhotiuk, Vukojevic, Smith, Hoelscher, Popugaev, Students, McLeod, Bastian, Cormier. At least Okhotiuk was a part of the package for Meier. Bastian is good role player for 4th line, he was a buddy pick for McLeod.

Thanks God he was so bad with any success, that he was fired. If he would make a play off, we could sign Hall for 10 mil, have later pick in 2020, not trade assets and stay without Mercer and Mukhamadullin (who was turned into Meier). I believe we will see another summer of Shero and stay without Luke. And our Neverending Nightmare... would never end. There were tonns of mediocre players in the league to trade for second round picks. Good strategy, good moves, good job, thanks, Shero, you still loved by audience.

 

[indfin]

I don’t know if I believe that. You could argue being taken that late makes the player want it more and drives them more to work harder. Pretty much Tom Brady saying that

But if management thought, for a second, that Tom Brady would turn out to be a fraction of the player that he ultimately was ... then their management should be fired for giving every other team so many chances to draft him. They took a flyer (for whatever reason) in a late round, and (thanks to a key injury at the right time) it worked out better than anyone could imagine.

Same thing with Bratt, imo - if they believed he would be an NHL player (never mind one of this level), they would have gladly scooped him up much earlier

 

[indfin]

Hello there, new person I see for the first time here on this boards (despite the fact your accoung was created in 2010).

Nice to meet you.

Clearly, I've been playing the long game, waiting for just the right moment.

Was it really 2010? Wow ... I was old even then

 

[None Shall Pass]

Shero was cool because of the "f***ing Brampton" quote about Pavel Flab-cha. Everything else is irrelevant to me.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The were very recent. I mean four players from the 2021 2nd Rd have played in the NHL and the only one with a significant number of GP was 20 years old when he was drafted.

A player taken from the Subban and Gusev trade made the Elite Prospects Top 100.

NOTE: I listed where all our traded players ranked for fun, I’m not criticizing the later trades at all.

Typically, if you’re trying to rebuild, you try to draft more in the early rounds. Shero never tried to make that happen. Trading away a bunch of 2nds, while getting no extra early picks, wasn’t a feasible plan.

We traded “Hall, Palms, Coleman” because the Summer of Shero failed, so we’re right back at the point of contention. That failure is knock against him. It was real late in his run so it isn’t Lou’s fault.

Well Schneider and his contract remained a killer but Shero can be held responsible for his own implosion.

Elite Prospects Top 100 Drafted Prospects:
Our Prospects:
100/ Seamus Casey, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
19/ Simon Nemec, 6.5 FV Tier (14-21)
8/ Luke Hughes, 7 FV Tier (7-13)
All Our Traded Picks:
85/ DET Shia Buium LHD, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2021 NJD 2nd Rd #36 (Gusev trade)
82/ MIN Marat Khusnutdinov C, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2020 NJD 2nd Rd #37 (Subban trade)
69/ COL Sean Behrens LHD, 5 FV Tier (44-100)
2021 NYI 2nd Rd #61 (Greene > Graves trade)
28/ SJS Quentin Musty LW, 6 FV Tier (22-28)
2023 NJD 1st #26 (Meier trade)

View attachment 739502

Pronman’s Top 168 U23 players:
148/ Gritsyuk
132/ Foote
124/ Filmon
119/ Holtz

Our Traded Picks:
114/ MIN Marat Khusnutdinov C
Middle of the lineup player (#7 on MIN’s list, who were 10th)
87/ SJS Quentin Musty LW
Middle of the lineup player (#5 on SJS’s list, who were 13th)
NR/ DET Shia Buium LHD
Projected to Play Games (#11 on DET’s list, who were 8th)
NR/ COL Sean Behrens LHD
Has a Chance to Play (NR on Colorado, who was 25th)
Also
NR/ VGK Lukas Cormier LHD
Projected to Play Games (#5 on Vegas, who was 26th)
2020 NJD 3rd Rd #68 (Gusev trade)
NR/Bobby Brink RW
Has a Chance to Play (NR on Philly, who was 11th)
2019 NJD 2nd Rd #34 (Subban Trade)

You're assuming that we would have taken those players or players of similar caliber with those picks when that's 100% speculation.

All of the 2nds Shero traded, with the exception of the Grabner trade, were surplus picks - ie, we still had a high 2nd and used it to select a player. During Shero's tenure, there was only one draft we didn't have a 2nd and it was the year we made the playoffs.

Given the guys that Shero/Castron targeted with 2nds early in their tenure - Bastian, Boqvist, Okhotiuk - these are largely replacement level guys. Especially considering two those three guys were already the high 2nds you're clamoring for.

IMO it doesn't make sense to harp on the lost opportunity of 4 guys who are "projected to play NHL games" when we already got:

970 NHL games from the 2016 class
698 NHL games from the 2017 class
352 NHL games from the 2018 class
270 NHL games from the 2019 class (remember that these guys basically lost their D+2 seasons due to COVID, guys like Moynihan and McCarthy are still in college)

Especially considering many of those later picks were cultivated from the ground up into assets that were used to build our current roster - Meier, Marino, Toffoli, Graves, Siegenthaler, and Mercer are all guys that wouldn't have been Devils if not for assets that Shero created from scratch.

Pretending that Shai Buium (who is still in college) or Bobby Brink (10 games played in 2023) or whoever else would have moved the needle in a long term rebuild like the one we had is pretty disingenuous. What moved the needle was our top 2 centers (who were drafted by Shero) maturing and staying healthy, giving the defense a facelift (100% Fitzgerald, no argument there), and addressing goaltending (Vanecek played admirably this year but he's on the cusp of losing his job to Schmid, a late round Shero pick).

I'm also not sure why you're including a 2nd from the Graves trade and a 1st from the Meier trade in an analysis of Shero trades - those picks were traded by Fitzgerald.

Shero earned his firing with his horrendous handling of the goalie situation, marrying himself to Hynes, and failing to make meaningful adds on defense. He shot his load too early in 2019 and it cost him his job (possibly his career). That being said, his fingerprints are all over this team and only a fool would argue otherwise. Shero's vision of fast, attacking, and supportive group of skaters is obvious in the core identity of Fitzgerald's current team. Especially considering our captain and three best forwards are all Shero picks.

 

[Cheddabombs]

At least training camp starts soon

 

[guitarguyvic]

One thing I won’t deny giving Shero credit for is picking Nico instead of the other guy first overall.

There, I said something positive about him.

The only thing you have to ask yourself to determine whether or not Shero was a very good GM is this…if he didn’t get fired, would he have constructed this team the way Fitz did? And I think the answer, based on what he did while here, is unequivocally no.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Don’t feel bad. I have no idea what the job pays but there’s gotta be more lucrative jobs to get into. How the heck is there even a sales force to sell tickets in 2023?

They typically pay very little. If you want a business job in sports, that’s typically where you have to start. Working long hours for relatively poor pay just in hopes of getting a chance at something more. So I feel for those people.

 

[Guttersniped]

You're assuming that we would have taken those players or players of similar caliber with those picks when that's 100% speculation.

All of the 2nds Shero traded, with the exception of the Grabner trade, were surplus picks - ie, we still had a high 2nd and used it to select a player. During Shero's tenure, there was only one draft we didn't have a 2nd and it was the year we made the playoffs.

Given the guys that Shero/Castron targeted with 2nds early in their tenure - Bastian, Boqvist, Okhotiuk - these are largely replacement level guys. Especially considering two those three guys were already the high 2nds you're clamoring for.

IMO it doesn't make sense to harp on the lost opportunity of 4 guys who are "projected to play NHL games" when we already got:

970 NHL games from the 2016 class
698 NHL games from the 2017 class
352 NHL games from the 2018 class
270 NHL games from the 2019 class (remember that these guys basically lost their D+2 seasons due to COVID, guys like Moynihan and McCarthy are still in college)

Especially considering many of those later picks were cultivated from the ground up into assets that were used to build our current roster - Meier, Marino, Toffoli, Graves, Siegenthaler, and Mercer are all guys that wouldn't have been Devils if not for assets that Shero created from scratch.

Pretending that Shai Buium (who is still in college) or Bobby Brink (10 games played in 2023) or whoever else would have moved the needle in a long term rebuild like the one we had is pretty disingenuous. What moved the needle was our top 2 centers (who were drafted by Shero) maturing and staying healthy, giving the defense a facelift (100% Fitzgerald, no argument there), and addressing goaltending (Vanecek played admirably this year but he's on the cusp of losing his job to Schmid, a late round Shero pick).

I'm also not sure why you're including a 2nd from the Graves trade and a 1st from the Meier trade in an analysis of Shero - those picks were traded by Fitzgerald.

Shero earned his firing with his horrendous handling of the goalie situation, marrying himself to Hynes, and failing to make meaningful adds on defense. He shot his load to early in 2019 and it cost him his job (possibly his career). That being said, his fingerprints are all over this team and only a fool would argue otherwise. Shero's vision of fast, attacking, and supportive group of skaters is obvious in the core identity of Fitzgerald's current team. Especially considering our captain and three best forwards are all Shero picks.

All of the 2nds Shero traded, with the exception of the Grabner trade, were surplus picks - ie, we still had a high 2nd and used it to select a player. During Shero's tenure, there was only one draft we didn't have a 2nd and it was the year we made the playoffs.

What are you talking about? He traded our 2018, 2019, 2020 and 2021 2nd. None of those were surplus 2nds. Those were our 2nds, therefore not surplus. Those are the ones I’ve complained about.

We didn’t have another “high” 2nd in 2019, we had Boston’s #61 pick, the second last pick in the round. We had the the third pick in the 2nd in the Round.

Having a couple extra other picks, after we sold off players, doesn’t mean losing those 2nd wasn’t bad. Teams like Detroit and Buffalo drafted a ton in the 2nd Rd, and we never had an extra pick or even manage to each year. It’s pathetic. Sorry Shero apologists, that’s what it is.

He asked about the players taken with the picks so I discussed them. And we didn’t have to pick those guys, we could have drafted someone else. And they don’t necessarily have to play for us. Maybe we trade them for Meier and kept Zetterlund. Fitz could have also used those picks to move up in the draft with our late 1sts.

I don’t see the problem of pointing out that when you’re terrible trading three 2nds in one off-season is a bad move, particularly when it completely blows up in your face and those assets turn into ashes before they’re even used.

And I only “harp” on lost opportunity when people defend this dumb shit.

A team who was in the bottom of the standings, which never had any extra picks, shouldn’t have traded a bunch of their 2nds. And Summer of Shero was doomed to fail, and more importantly, had to fail. Those are my arguments. (Which I’m tired of making because I don’t care that much anymore, it’s very spilt milk.)

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

The Gusev and Subban trades ultimately went wrong but I totally get the calculus behind the moves. They were fine gambles to take. Golden child Tom Fitzgerald seemed to think Gusev would help when he was assistant GM:

"There's probably the questions of, well, he's never played in the League, but we believe what he's done Internationally, whether it's Olympics, World Championships, World Cups, and of course, in the KHL, we think it translates into a really good NHL player," Fitzgerald said. "So, how good? That's going to be the question, but we definitely feel we've upgraded our skill level in the top six."

I said my piece.

 

[guitarguyvic]

The Gusev and Subban trades ultimately went wrong but I totally get the calculus behind the moves. They were fine gambles to take. Golden child Tom Fitzgerald seemed to think Gusev would help when he was assistant GM:

"There's probably the questions of, well, he's never played in the League, but we believe what he's done Internationally, whether it's Olympics, World Championships, World Cups, and of course, in the KHL, we think it translates into a really good NHL player," Fitzgerald said. "So, how good? That's going to be the question, but we definitely feel we've upgraded our skill level in the top six."

I said my piece.

Lol what do you expect he’s gonna say as AGM? “Meh I wouldn’t have made this move if I was the GM”? Of course he’s gonna spin the potential positives of the move his boss made. It means nothing.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Bratt talks signing long-term contract with Devils in Q&A with NHL.com | NHL.com

Forward also discusses New Jersey becoming Cup contender, higher expectations, new teammate Toffoli

www.nhl.com

Nothing groundbreaking, but worth the read.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Shero's moves in a vacuum all looked good to great, then you look at the complete picture and it shows a lack of vision. You compare it to Fitzgerald (in particular in how he built a legit defense with clear thought and planning) and you realize you can't just judge GMs by taking each individual move and giving it a star rating and averaging all their ratings. Like I'm not sure Shero made a move worse than the Palat signing (sorry but it's going worse than expected and might go even more sour, hard to deny), but avoiding bad FA signings in themselves is not the sign of great GMing.

 

[Oneiro]

Practically speaking we missed out on like Hoglander, Knies and maybe like two other players because Shero traded those picks? On principle, I think the criticism is correct though. We just got lucky that we didn’t miss out on too much.

And the reality is that the guys who keep defaulting to Shero being the worst never talk about the cap because then their silly arguments would actually have to stand up to context. Hamilton, Palat, Meier, etc. do not happen if you have a GM that overcommits which Shero did not do.

And I don’t think Smith, Zetterlund, Okhotiuk or Maltsev will amount to much but the fact remains that people wanted to trade NHL players for them. Which they did not want to do for Thomson, Kujawinski, Corrente, Tedenby, etc.

This window is one of the best I’ve seen for an NHL team, on par with Chicago in the late 00s. It’s just cope from the same crew who needs to self rationalize Fitz’s success by ignoring how the dominos fell, as if he walked into a vacuum.

This annual ritual is always fun.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Lol what do you expect he’s gonna say as AGM? “Meh I wouldn’t have made this move if I was the GM”? Of course he’s gonna spin the potential positives of the move his boss made. It means nothing.

You’re probably right, guys that worked closely with each other for years likely had a massive disagreement on this specific player that didn’t work out. The guy we love was certainly against getting him, despite direct evidence to the contrary.

 

[guitarguyvic]

You’re probably right, guys that worked closely with each other for years likely had a massive disagreement on this specific player that didn’t work out. The guy we love was certainly against getting him, despite direct evidence to the contrary.

Fitzgerald is very clearly a better GM, with a clearer vision of how to construct a well balanced team and a knack for finding really good players that fit that vision. I don’t give two shits how long they worked together, that doesn’t equate to him being in complete lock step with every decision Shero made.

 

[JrFischer54]

But if management thought, for a second, that Tom Brady would turn out to be a fraction of the player that he ultimately was ... then their management should be fired for giving every other team so many chances to draft him. They took a flyer (for whatever reason) in a late round, and (thanks to a key injury at the right time) it worked out better than anyone could imagine.

Same thing with Bratt, imo - if they believed he would be an NHL player (never mind one of this level), they would have gladly scooped him up much earlier

Should the same be said for the devils trading back and taking broduer? Why risk letting another team take him

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Fitzgerald is very clearly a better GM, with a clearer vision of how to construct a well balanced team and a knack for finding really good players that fit that vision. I don’t give two shits how long they worked together, that doesn’t equate to him being in complete lock step with every decision Shero made.

You’ve won that imaginary argument you were having with me. Anyway, the Gusev move which didn’t work out, was a fine gamble and was a move current GM supported publicly.

 

[JimEIV]

Lol what do you expect he’s gonna say as AGM? “Meh I wouldn’t have made this move if I was the GM”? Of course he’s gonna spin the potential positives of the move his boss made. It means nothing.

Yeah...I have come to the point that I don't listen to the words players or management speak... it's all 100% prepackaged, sanitized, combed-over, pre-approved, officially sanctioned, meticulously crafted, public relations gobbledygook.

Every once in a blue moon you might get a nugget....but most of the time it's just an exercise of saying the "right thing"

 

[MartyOwns]

 

[JrFischer54]

One thing I won’t deny giving Shero credit for is picking Nico instead of the other guy first overall.

There, I said something positive about him.

The only thing you have to ask yourself to determine whether or not Shero was a very good GM is this…if he didn’t get fired, would he have constructed this team the way Fitz did? And I think the answer, based on what he did while here, is unequivocally no.

He already had jack nico bratt. Because of the Shero moves Fitz had the ammo to get Mercer muk sieg graves Marino

 

[Lou is God]

Maybe we should start a GM thread? This seems like a real hot topic.

 

[Devs3cups]

Maybe we should start a GM thread? This seems like a real hot topic.

Not a bad idea. GM Discussion lmao