Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[My3Sons]

Look, I take back the comment about My3Sons being an old, washed up sack of shit. Didn't realize he wasn't that bad last year.

He's still about to turn 137 years old and I don't think he would be much of an upgrade here.

You’ve been talking to my kids again haven’t you?

 

[devilsblood]

Fleury is a streaky league average goalie and was for the vast majority of his career. He was drafted 1st overall but do not let that fool you.

He had four .920 or better seasons in a 7 year span. And was at or better then .913 for four years leading up to that 7 year span. Without looking, for those 11 years, I'm thinking he was well above average.

But he also had some epically bad playoffs.

Vitek is definitely not on that level.

 

[Mr Bojanglez]

"Really grinding away at it" to me reads like the deal is close with broad strokes agreed to but a lot of discussion on salary/bonus structure year by year and possibly NTCs.

Wasn't the Hamilton deal being 'grinded out' at one point?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Kinda hoping Vegas gives Adin Hill the bag so we can poach Logan Thompson off their roster. But they'll probably just do something else with Lehner so they can keep Hill and Thompson as a duo. It would've been nice keeping Thompson longer than we did in Binghamton and eventually now Utica.

Devils legend

 

[Hisch13r]

Wasn't the Hamilton deal being 'grinded out' at one point?

Yup. That's how it was described. I can't remember if it was announced the framework was agreed upon and he was coming but they were just hammering out the details before it was officially official or we were said to be grinding away before we got the announcement he was coming. Either way doesn't make a difference.

 

[Devs3cups]

Yup. That's how it was described. I can't remember if it was announced the framework was agreed upon and he was coming but they were just hammering out the details before it was officially official or we were said to be grinding away before we got the announcement he was coming. Either way doesn't make a difference.

If I remember correctly, it was reported he was signing with us a little past noon, and the signing became official around 5-6PM (Devils social media posted it, etc.)

 

[Dylan9z9]

I know you want an easy scapegoat, but the Hockey Hall of Fame isn't the NHL Hall of Fame. Bettman has no jurisdiction.

HHOF | Selection Committee

Featuring the by-laws and complete list of current and former members of the Selection Committee.

www.hhof.com

That's what they want you to believe

 

[Hisch13r]

If I remember correctly, it was reported he was signing with us a little past noon, and the signing became official around 5-6PM (Devils social media posted it, etc.)

Yeah like it was basically known he was coming here once midnight hit since there were like 4 suitors and 2 of them took themselves out of the race by acquiring other RD and the Canes were out once they lost the 8th year but I couldn’t remember if it was basically just an open secret he was coming here and it wasn’t announced until later in the day or it was said early on and then throughout the day we were grinding away at the specifics

 

[Triumph]

He had four .920 or better seasons in a 7 year span. And was at or better for then .913 for four years leading up to that 7 year span. Without looking, for those 11 years, I'm thinking he was well above average.

But he also had some epically bad playoffs.

Vitek is definitely not on that level.

You're comparing numbers across two very distinct eras. The average team scored and gave up 40 more goals last season than they did in 2014-15, and most of that is in save percentage.

Here's hockey-reference's era-adjusted career numbers, where 100 is average and being lower is better - Hasek is at 79, Gillies is at 120

M.A. Fluery - 97
Vitek Vanecek - 97

Now Vanecek didn't have to play in the NHL so young and so M.A. Fleury's career probably looks more like a 95 without those first two seasons, but yeah, I don't see that huge of a difference between the two.

 

[Bcap88]

Yeah like it was basically known he was coming here once midnight hit since there were like 4 suitors and 2 of them took themselves out of the race by acquiring other RD and the Canes were out once they lost the 8th year but I couldn’t remember if it was basically just an open secret he was coming here and it wasn’t announced until later in the day or it was said early on and then throughout the day we were grinding away at the specifics

Teams also had a week before to negotiate with him or send out their presentations im assuming a lot of the teams pivoted well before July 1st when he was able to sign

 

[Unknown Caller]

Fleury was not a Vezina caliber guy in Pittsburgh. He only had a 7th and 8th finish and he got Hart votes one time where he finished 18th so I imagine it was one singular vote. Fleury himself was not some lights out goalie who that just inexplicably collapsed in the playoffs.

He got Hart votes in 2010-11 and 2014-15 with Pittsburgh. He’s had Vezina votes in 5 separate seasons in his career. He was a first overall pick. Vanecek isn’t even close to Fleury.

 

[devilsblood]

You're comparing numbers across two very distinct eras. The average team scored and gave up 40 more goals last season than they did in 2014-15, and most of that is in save percentage.

Here's hockey-reference's era-adjusted career numbers, where 100 is average and being lower is better - Hasek is at 79, Gillies is at 120

M.A. Fluery - 97
Vitek Vanecek - 97

Now Vanecek didn't have to play in the NHL so young and so M.A. Fleury's career probably looks more like a 95 without those first two seasons, but yeah, I don't see that huge of a difference between the two.

Well first I'd have to question hockey reference's era adjusted model.

Secondly, in addition to his early seasons, you are also including late career years for MAF.

Just looking at seasons they both played. Both guys played in 30 something games in 2020-21. MAF posted a .928 save%. Vitek a .908.

Vitek over the last 3 seasons, amongst goalies who have played 3000 minutes, Vitek is tied with 4 other guys for 23rd out of 58 goalies in save %. Wedgewood being amongst that group.

MAF from 15-16 through 17-18 he was 8th.

This year, minimum 1000 minutes, Vitek was 19th in save%. MAF was 4th in 20-21. 6th in 17-18. 11th in 15-16. 13th in13-14.

MAF, is not an all timer, but his career is clearly better then Vitek's career thus far.

He got Hart votes in 2010-11 and 2014-15 with Pittsburgh. He’s had Vezina votes in 5 separate seasons in his career. He was a first overall pick. Vanecek isn’t even close to Fleury.

Take the first overall pick out, because some high picks bust.

But he was getting votes because he had some very good seasons. Vitek has one decent season under his belt. And 2 less then decent.

 

[Guttersniped]

I know it’s not apples to apples, but my point is that Mogilny has as much to do with the current geopolitical climate as Drai did with Hitlers atrocities. It’s just a shame that because you share a nation with an historically not-good person, you’re treated as a leper.

They were snubbing Mogilny for years though, well before the invasion in Feb 2022, while letting plenty of other Russians in. He retired in 2006, that isn’t the issue.

The most recent:
Sergei Federov, retired in 2009, Class of 2015
Sergei Makarov RW, Class of 2016 (long career in Russia, then came to NA at 31, and played 7 seasons in NHL)
Aleksander Yakushev LW, Class of 2019 (from the classic 1960s-70s Soviet teams, joining Kharlamov and Tretiak).
Sergei Zubov, retired in 2009, Class of 2019

Political tensions can hypothetically block a change of (the voters’) heart to let him in now, but people have been bitching about this for years.





(He ends up being pretty prescient here about Barrasso and Turgeon, even though he likely just singled them out as fellow Buffalo draft picks.)

 

[Dylan9z9]

So Elias who has 2 Stanley Cups leads the Devils in a lot of categories doesn't get in after all these years. But Henrik Bumquist with 0 Cups gets in first time? f*** The Assholes that make this list

 

[Hisch13r]

So Elias who has 2 Stanley Cups leads the Devils in a lot of categories doesn't get in after all these years. But Henrik Bumquist with 0 Cups gets in first time? f*** The Assholes that make this list

Elias is a borderline guy. Lundqvist is one of the best goalies ever and the best of his generation. He's a clear cut 1st ballot guy.

 

[Better Call Sal]

It’s a crime AlMo keeps getting passed up. The Hall of Fame Committee is a joke.

Mike f***ing Vernon? Get the f*** out of here.

 

[Lou is God]

It’s a crime AlMo keeps getting passed up. The Hall of Fame Committee is a joke.

Mike f***ing Vernon? Get the f*** out of here.

It's getting to the point I can't take them seriously much like the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame.

 

[Dylan9z9]

Elias is a borderline guy. Lundqvist is one of the best goalies ever and the best of his generation. He's a clear cut 1st ballot guy.

15 seasons 0 Cups yeah he's a real winner! Patrick was a borderline player? The guy had 80 GWG's

It's getting to the point I can't take them seriously much like the Rock n' Roll Hall of Fame.

absolutely right!!!

 

[MartyOwns]

i’m going to be sad to see yegor go, i genuinely hope he can carve out a solid career somewhere.

 

[Hisch13r]

i’m going to be sad to see yegor go, i genuinely hope he can carve out a solid career somewhere.

I can really see him going either way.

 

[Patrik26]

It’s a crime AlMo keeps getting passed up. The Hall of Fame Committee is a joke.

Mike f***ing Vernon? Get the f*** out of here.

It's not just hockey. Baseball. Harold Baines. Scott Rolen.

 

[MasterofGrond]

It's not just hockey. Baseball. Harold Baines. Scott Rolen.

Don’t put rolen in the same breath as baines, that’s just insulting.

Rolen was a great player and a good induction. Easily hall worthy.

 

[Triumph]

Well first I'd have to question hockey reference's era adjusted model.

It's unclear whether that number is taking into account SV% or not, so I will discard it for now - it may just be an era-adjusted GAA. Thankfully we don't need it.

Secondly, in addition to his early seasons, you are also including late career years for MAF.

He's been fine in his later years. He hasn't imploded yet.

MAF, is not an all timer, but his career is clearly better then Vitek's career thus far.

So far in his career, MAF saves 0.08 goals per 60 minutes above average, or ~5 goals in a 60 game season. So far in his career, Vitek saves .08 goals per 60 minutes above average, or ~5 goals in a 60 game season. The thing is, luck is such a huge factor that an average goalie will likely have an outstanding season eventually, and surely the fact that it was a short season probably helped.

MAF is probably better, but it's not by a whole lot.

Take the first overall pick out, because some high picks bust.

But he was getting votes because he had some very good seasons. Vitek has one decent season under his belt. And 2 less then decent.

Leave in the first overall pick, because he was getting Vezina votes because he was a 1st overall pick. It is likely why he will go to the Hall of Fame.

 

[Bleedred]

Fleury was a better goalie in his 30's than he was in his 20's, but now that he's had a few decline seasons in his 30's, his 30's probably won't go down to be better than his 20's.

But he was certainly a better goalie at 30-34 years old than he was when he was 24-28 years old, that's for sure.

I think he's definitely cooked at this point and just chasing Roy for 2nd all time in wins.

And Minnesota and their people seem to like him a lot more than they should. They even threw a few coins into the one armed bandit on him in game 2 of the playoffs after their other goalie basically stole game 1, as well as massively outplayed him all season long. And they got robbed for that move.

But that has nothing to do with Fleury in his prime. And Fleury's prime/peak was probably in his early 30's.

 

[SKNJD9]