Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Darkauron]

I think Nolan has a great chance and has constantly been improving every year. And Staff and scouts really like his game.

Cal sucks and can barely even skate. But fine for an AHL D and emergency callup

 

[Zippy316]

So - what is the skinny on Cal and Nolan Foote? Obviously, Adam Foote was a good player, and both of his kids went in the first rounds in their draft years. Why are they struggling to find a spot?

No pun intended but their foot speed and skating seem to be what is holding both of them back.

Devils took the really slow approach with Nolan to work through it, curious to see if it pays off.

 

[TBF1972]

We need a contingency plan for Holtz scoring 40 goals and getting 8m in 2025-26, this is now a pressing concern.

What if he gets 60 goals? Then we won’t even be able to afford him.

how much would we have to pay to dump his future cap hit.

 

[Patrik26]

Maybe I'm too old, but...

Can any kids today complete a sentence without the word "like" in it?

Not a chance.

 

[FinnishDevil]

The legend has been found.

Erik Haula is already a Devils legend in my book. What a great feeling its gonna be to eventually beat those Canes.

 

[TrufleShufle]

buh buh buh buh baby, you aint seen nothin' yet ... randy bachman wrote the stutter into the song ....his brother garry did it in his natural speech as the story goes. "a speech impediment"..... where's carlin to remind us that it's not called that anymore and been sterilized into a more digestible term, right?


speaking of 'randy'

my brother and his high school classmates once wanted to do some lip-sync thing and were de-f***in-nied.

rolling stones start me up. the astute teacher was aware of the (improvised?) line during the outro of the song

you make a dead man 'comb'

What's really funny about that story is they did it as a joke and didn't want it in the song, the producer made them keep it in and they really didn't want to.

 

[Billdo]

Maybe I'm too old, but...

Can any kids today complete a sentence without the word "like" in it?

When I have professional development or in-service training I start to count them if someone says it in a noticeable manner.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't think Nolan is struggling to find a spot as much as they've brought him along slowly. He seems like he is going to be getting his crack at the lineup this year for certain given his waiver status and the way Fitz has talked about him this offseason.

Cal has seemed to stagnate in terms of development from what I can tell, I know @Guttersniped detailed quite a bit in a prior post in this thread.

They brought him along slowly because he hasn't been good enough to slot him in at the NHL level.

The thought now is maybe he plays on the 4th line.

I agree the team changed course on his development, but again, I think that's because they realized he is not a top 6 player.

But the Dev's have been good at turning once highly touted fwd prospects into useful bottom of the lineup players.

 

[Triumph]

They brought him along slowly because he hasn't been good enough to slot him in at the NHL level.

The thought now is maybe he plays on the 4th line.

I agree the team changed course on his development, but again, I think that's because they realized he is not a top 6 player.

But the Dev's have been good at turning once highly touted fwd prospects into useful bottom of the lineup players.

Thankfully top 6 and bottom 6 are fictions. At no point in Nolan Foote's career did it appear like he would be a 'top 6' NHL player - maybe during his D-2 did it appear most likely. No one would conclude there was a chance of him being so except for the fact that he was drafted in the 1st round. He can still be a fine contributor up and down the lineup, possibly playing on PP2.

 

[devilsblood]

Thankfully top 6 and bottom 6 are fictions. At no point in Nolan Foote's career did it appear like he would be a 'top 6' NHL player - maybe during his D-2 did it appear most likely. No one would conclude there was a chance of him being so except for the fact that he was drafted in the 1st round. He can still be a fine contributor up and down the lineup, possibly playing on PP2.

Is it only when I say "top 6" that you pop up and make this argument? But it is not fiction, as much as you want to push that narrative.

I mean, the Devils last year had a very clear distinction between top 6 and bottom 6. Just look at the centers.

And there was definitely a time after he was drafted where top 6 was still on the table.

 

[Triumph]

Is it only when I say "top 6" that you pop up and make this argument? But it is not fiction, as much as you want to push that narrative.

I mean, the Devils last year had a very clear distinction between top 6 and bottom 6. Just look at the centers.

Yeah, just look at the centers. Maybe you should try that. How about looking at the centers? Good idea.

And there was definitely a time after he was drafted where top 6 was still on the table.

This is merely quibbling over percentages - there's no time when it looked even remotely close to likely, so yes, it's still 'on the table' even now but it's a 1 in 100 shot when back then it was something like 15-20%. Plenty of players with his junior results in his draft year have gone on to be 'top 6' NHLers; the vast majority have not, and he has not beaten those draft year results, either.

 

[Better Call Sal]

They brought him along slowly because he hasn't been good enough to slot him in at the NHL level.

The thought now is maybe he plays on the 4th line.

I agree the team changed course on his development, but again, I think that's because they realized he is not a top 6 player.

But the Dev's have been good at turning once highly touted fwd prospects into useful bottom of the lineup players.

I don't think they changed course on his development at all, to be honest. I don't think anyone necessarily expected him to immediately jump into the NHL. I certainly didn't, anyway. Even if he was a previous 1st rounder, he was a late one who always seemed to have the question of whether he can skate at the pace of the big leagues despite the great shot he possesses.

His progression as a player coincides with the team making a massive jump forward this season and bringing in the likes of Palat and Meier over the past two seasons. It allows them to continue bringing him along and developing the other parts of his game that he maybe never put together in juniors.

Some prospects really do need the time in the minors to put a more well-rounded game together and I think he's a perfect example.

 

[devilsblood]

Yeah, just look at the centers. Maybe you should try that. How about looking at the centers? Good idea.

Is the redundancy supposed to distract from the fact that Nico and Hughes are on a completely different level then Boqvist?

This is merely quibbling over percentages - there's no time when it looked even remotely close to likely, so yes, it's still 'on the table' even now but it's a 1 in 100 shot when back then it was something like 15-20%. Plenty of players with his junior results in his draft year have gone on to be 'top 6' NHLers; the vast majority have not, and he has not beaten those draft year results, either.

But that goes for all draftee's outside the top 10. Not many draftees have high probabilites to be high end top 6 players type players. But in the early phases of development you do groom them in hopes they can reach that level. The Devils clearly changed course with Foote.

 

[devilsblood]

I don't think they changed course on his development at all, to be honest. I don't think anyone necessarily expected him to immediately jump into the NHL. I certainly didn't, anyway. Even if he was a previous 1st rounder, he was a late one who always seemed to have the question of whether he can skate at the pace of the big leagues despite the great shot he possesses.

His progression as a player coincides with the team making a massive jump forward this season and bringing in the likes of Palat and Meier over the past two seasons. It allows them to continue bringing him along and developing the other parts of his game that he maybe never put together in juniors.

Some prospects really do need the time in the minors to put a more well-rounded game together and I think he's a perfect example.

I can see the added talent, and the progression of in house talent, factoring into the decision to change course on Foote, but they've come out and said they wanted him to play more physically, they put him on a line with Gauthier. He said last prospect camp they wanted him to get stronger, and this is with him already being a big kid.

 

[Triumph]

Is the redundancy supposed to distract from the fact that Nico and Hughes are on a completely different level then Boqvist?

Just look at the centers, man. Just look at them.

But that goes for all draftee's outside the top 10. Not many draftees have high probabilites to be high end top 6 players type players. But in the early phases of development you do groom them in hopes they can reach that level. The Devils clearly changed course with Foote.

I don't think you do and that it's just telling lies about development to think otherwise. The AHL isn't a development league. Players who spend a lot of time there usually have substantially different roles there than they have in the NHL. So the idea that you groom a player for playing 'top 6' or 'bottom 6' is mostly ridiculous.

The Devils did not 'change course' with Foote. He played some center because they were desperate down there, and that's maybe it? Maybe he killed some penalties, AHL ice time isn't available so I'm not sure about that - he probably did. I doubt he does that much in the NHL.

 

[devilsblood]

Just look at the centers, man. Just look at them.

Cool hand waving.

Let's look at Foote's line mates over the last 3 years in NJ.

50 minutes with Boq.
38 minutes with McLeod
38 minutes with Zacha(2 years)
11 minutes with Haula(1 year)



8 minutes with Hughes
5 minutes with Nico.

Are we not seeing a clear distinction?

 

[devilsblood]

I don't think you do and that it's just telling lies about development to think otherwise. The AHL isn't a development league. Players who spend a lot of time there usually have substantially different roles there than they have in the NHL. So the idea that you groom a player for playing 'top 6' or 'bottom 6' is mostly ridiculous.

The Devils did not 'change course' with Foote. He played some center because they were desperate down there, and that's maybe it? Maybe he killed some penalties, AHL ice time isn't available so I'm not sure about that - he probably did. I doubt he does that much in the NHL.

I didn't say he played center(not sure if he did or not) what I said was Gauthier was his center. A clear change of course towards playing a defensive game.

And sure guys play different roles in the NHL then they do in the AHL, but that's because the NHL is better. So maybe they play a guy in a more offensive role in the AHL, but then once it's clear that player is unable to produce offensive at the NHL level they change course.

Now certain guys like Boucher are unable to transition to a different role, but other guys, like McLeod are. McLeod's transition happened at the NHL level, due to lack of alternatives in NJ, but Foote's took place in the AHL.

 

[Triumph]

Cool hand waving.

Let's look at Foote's line mates over the last 3 years in NJ.

50 minutes with Boq.
38 minutes with McLeod
38 minutes with Zacha(2 years)
11 minutes with Haula(1 year)



8 minutes with Hughes
5 minutes with Nico.

Are we not seeing a clear distinction?

Surely you can't be this thick. It's just not possible, is it? Wow, the guy who called up from the minors, usually when the Devils had already made multiple callups already, played with guys who weren't Nico and Hughes? Wow! They didn't let the guy they were giving 10 minutes a game to play with the better players?

The thought I was expressing is that sure, the centers 'define' a 'top 6' on this team, but that the wingers move pretty freely between the top 3 lines, with some of them even moving between all 4. Someone like Foote could easily find himself on the 1st or 4th line next year; neither one would surprise me at all, just like how Zetterlund played all over.

 

[Triumph]

I didn't say he played center(not sure if he did or not) what I said was Gauthier was his center. A clear change of course towards playing a defensive game.

I didn't say that you said he played center. What I said was 'he played center'. That's because he did play center.

And sure guys play different roles in the NHL then they do in the AHL, but that's because the NHL is better. So maybe they play a guy in a more offensive role in the AHL, but then once it's clear that player is unable to produce offensive at the NHL level they change course.

Change course how? That course has already been determined a long time ago. It is rare that e.g. players who don't kill penalties in the AHL start killing them in the NHL and it's usually because of other considerations that they do.

Now certain guys like Boucher are unable to transition to a different role, but other guys, like McLeod are. McLeod's transition happened at the NHL level, due to lack of alternatives in NJ, but Foote's took place in the AHL.

Due to lack of alternatives in NJ? What are you talking about? You've also given no evidence that Foote's transition happened in the AHL except that he played with a guy who was a defensive specialist in the NHL (but is not one in the AHL, he scored at a 2nd line rate there).

 

[Better Call Sal]

I can see the added talent, and the progression of in house talent, factoring into the decision to change course on Foote, but they've come out and said they wanted him to play more physically, they put him on a line with Gauthier. He said last prospect camp they wanted him to get stronger, and this is with him already being a big kid.

Right, because he's a big boy. Guys his size with a great shot don't need to use that size nearly as much at the junior level because they're already another level above most players talent wise.

In his draft year, he was only 190 at 6'3", he's listed at 196 still on the Devils roster on the website. With skating not being a strong suit of his, getting stronger and more accustomed to using his size was going to always be a better recipe for his future success. And another reason why I feel that they brought him along properly with cups of coffee with the big club in the past two seasons. To his credit, I don't think he's looked out of place whatsoever in his small sample size here.

 

[Guttersniped]

Just look at the centers, man. Just look at them.



I don't think you do and that it's just telling lies about development to think otherwise. The AHL isn't a development league. Players who spend a lot of time there usually have substantially different roles there than they have in the NHL. So the idea that you groom a player for playing 'top 6' or 'bottom 6' is mostly ridiculous.

The Devils did not 'change course' with Foote. He played some center because they were desperate down there, and that's maybe it? Maybe he killed some penalties, AHL ice time isn't available so I'm not sure about that - he probably did. I doubt he does that much in the NHL.

The AHL literally is a development league, they have rules making it a development league.

Nolan Foote has two SH assists, the most on Utica. (There’s a total of 6 SH goals, he didn’t score any.) He also has 4 PP goals & 4 PP assists.

Why not give a prospect special team work if you want him to work on that? Why else would the Devils own an AHL team? To compete for Calder Cup glory?

Foote went earlier than predicted, which can happen with potential power forwards with pop. He was predicted to go more in the early 2nd round. His skating was always an issue and his elite shot was his selling point.

So I believe his ceiling was seen as a middle six/PP play guy at most, with him more realistically reaching a bottom six/PP2 role. He never skated or produced enough for people think he was a future top six player.

McLeod definitely played a shut down role in the AHL and he was developed in the AHL. Do people think the team doesn’t know what’s happening with these guys? That player development is a myth?

 

[Guadana]

The AHL literally is a development league, they have rules making it a development league.

No-no-no. There are no rules, no vet limits, young tplayers dont overplay regularly what they had in euro leagues and AHL is second best and competitive league overall.

 

[devilsblood]

Surely you can't be this thick. It's just not possible, is it? Wow, the guy who called up from the minors, usually when the Devils had already made multiple callups already, played with guys who weren't Nico and Hughes? Wow! They didn't let the guy they were giving 10 minutes a game to play with the better players?

The thought I was expressing is that sure, the centers 'define' a 'top 6' on this team, but that the wingers move pretty freely between the top 3 lines, with some of them even moving between all 4. Someone like Foote could easily find himself on the 1st or 4th line next year; neither one would surprise me at all, just like how Zetterlund played all over.

Yeah, Foote, the guy they called up, didn't play in the top 6, he played in the bottom 6. This is my point.

And Bratt didn't move freely between the top 3 lines. 90% of his toi was with Hughes or Nico. Tatar was at 80%.

Shara was with Hughes in the top 6, then was demoted and never returned. This will probably be an example where I don't have the actual splits, so you'll dispute it, but anyone who watched knows this is true.

Is there some movement between guys who struggle and drop down to the 3rd like Shara or Palat, or vice versa with Mercer? Yes there is. But guess what, Shara played 167 minutes with McLeod too (again 2nd half of the year). Zetterlund played 200 minutes with Nico, and 100 minutes with McLeod. So there is movement throughout the lineup.

 

[devilsblood]

Edit: I'm going to put this is a reply to an above post. For effect.

 

[devilsblood]

You've also given no evidence that Foote's transition happened in the AHL except that he played with a guy who was a defensive specialist in the NHL (but is not one in the AHL, he scored at a 2nd line rate there).

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/new-jersey-devils/features/devils-foote-could-follow-in-bastians-footsteps-as-he-learns-to-reinvent-his-game

"I don't know how many people go through their careers, and their game changes as drastically as mine has," he explained. "When I was younger, I was scoring goals, toe dragging, and I don't have the skill to do that at this level. It's a matter of knowing your game, believing in it, and finding a way to contribute."

When speaking about Foote, Fitzgerald said, "I think with our guidance and help through our development team and coaches (in Utica) educating him on what he would look like at the NHL level, how he would be successful, and try to help him reinvent himself."

If Foote earns a roster spot for the 2023-24 season, he will likely serve a bottom-six role, like Bastian. Utica Comets general manager Dan MacKinnon alluded to as much during an interview with Ben Birnell of Sentinel Media.

"We've been happy with Nolan Foote from a maturity standpoint in his game and a commitment to playing a style of game that will keep him in the NHL one day full-time."

"A heavier presence on the wing. He's in traffic more. He's a little more physical, causing turnovers, MacKinnon continued. "All that great stuff that can translate to a middle six or bottom six role in the NHL rather than trying to define your game as just a straight shooter."