FinnishDevil
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Anyone here play puckdoku? Whats the most random player you could think of for the NJD/USA square? I went for the legendary
Bobby Butler
Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II
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SKNJD9
Hi, I'm mat.
Could go Terreri 1988, may of just been in Utica then though.
Billdo
Registered User
MartyOwns
thank you shero
- Apr 1, 2007
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Always love a good Bryzgalov reference.
That dude was weird even for a goalie, and that's saying something.
I feel like when the rangers won 2 (kakko) and 1 (laf) they had worse odds than us. The nhl even changed the rules after so you can’t move up more than 10 spots. Feel like the real loser of the draft has been the red wings who never win a lottery.
Fitz having to babysit hynes was hysterical
It's impossible to answer this because almost everything fell flat on its face that year. Even Gusev, the one mild success, took a long time to adjust and was abysmal in his first month. Hughes, Simmonds, Hall coming back healthy, Subban, Butcher being able to play in the top 4, Bratt building on his previous year, Schneider holding up - absolutely nothing went right.
There's prospects already drafted that could've been dealt. It's a hard counterfactual though - what if Hall is actually fine after his injury, what if Subban is still a top pairing D, etc.
No, he didn't, but there was one real problem - nobody was worth anything. Greene had some value, Zajac and Cammalleri absolutely did not, and Schneider only maintained his value through 2016. I think the hope was that some of the D would pan out, they could get some forwards and push through, and it was a rather vain hope.
There was nothing to "re"build from. It was a straight up build from the ground floor. We were by far the worst positioned team for the future when he took over. Dog shit old roster with barely anyone of value, dog shit prospect pool, almost no good young talent (one of like the 2 we had he pulled off an absolute fleecing with).
- Dec 20, 2018
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The Rangers win was weird because they had two lotteries in 2020.
The first winner was:
That’s actually technically Winnipeg, but f*** them, we needed two drafts because the NHL became so convinced a COVID stricken Canada was starved for NHL tv content that a June draft lottery was a must.
Then it was:
Which means the Rangers had better odds than
And
And definitely
After the NHL added the 2nd & 3rd pick lotteries, many teams with long odds won the 2nd, as you can see by the Flyers win. Winnipeg was also the 6th seed in 2016.
Carolina in 2018:
We were the 5th seed in 2022:
The only team I see as matching our luck is Chicago, particularly considering the players they bagged.
2022
And
Edmonton and Buffalo have been lucky too, being the worst team in the NHL doesn’t guarantee you anything, but they’ve both been the worst team the NHL multiple times. That kind of misery is pretty unique, it’s much more difficult to be the worst than just suck.
They changed the rules because they were tired of Edmonton bottoming out and getting the 1st lol
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AfroThunder396
[citation needed]
How many 2nds have actually turned into useful players for us? Seamus Casey is looking like the first actual hit we've had since Damon Severson over a decade ago, and even then we didn't get Casey with our original pick since Fitz traded our original 2nd.
If you look at Shero's tenure specifically we're talking about Blackwood (traded for a 6th), Boqvist (not qualified), and Okhotiuk (traded to SJ). I guess all of those picks technically beat the field since they all turned into NHL games for us, but none of them have been instrumental in any way. I would rather have 5 years of Kyle Palmieri than wait three years just to realize I drafted another Boqvist.
And Fitz traded away 2nds too: 2nd + prospect for Graves, a 2nd + 3rd for Vanecek. Yet everyone applauded those deals. Why? Because we needed those players and had a surplus of quality draft capital. And the reason we had those quality prospects is from top-10 picks, since those are the picks that shape your core and define your franchise. Not 2nd rounders. And there was no way Shero was going to get extra 1sts because we didn't have any skaters worth a damn and he clearly didn't have permission to do a full tear-it-all-down rebuild.
So to pretend that we would have had Kaliyev, Stankoven, Durzi, or any other now well-regarded young player is just baseless wish casting. We have no idea who they would have taken, but given Shero's record in the 2nd round and Fitz's record in the late 1st round I'm certain the board would have hated whoever we took with those picks.
If you look at Shero's tenure specifically we're talking about Blackwood (traded for a 6th), Boqvist (not qualified), and Okhotiuk (traded to SJ). I guess all of those picks technically beat the field since they all turned into NHL games for us, but none of them have been instrumental in any way. I would rather have 5 years of Kyle Palmieri than wait three years just to realize I drafted another Boqvist.
And Fitz traded away 2nds too: 2nd + prospect for Graves, a 2nd + 3rd for Vanecek. Yet everyone applauded those deals. Why? Because we needed those players and had a surplus of quality draft capital. And the reason we had those quality prospects is from top-10 picks, since those are the picks that shape your core and define your franchise. Not 2nd rounders. And there was no way Shero was going to get extra 1sts because we didn't have any skaters worth a damn and he clearly didn't have permission to do a full tear-it-all-down rebuild.
So to pretend that we would have had Kaliyev, Stankoven, Durzi, or any other now well-regarded young player is just baseless wish casting. We have no idea who they would have taken, but given Shero's record in the 2nd round and Fitz's record in the late 1st round I'm certain the board would have hated whoever we took with those picks.
Eggtimer
Registered User
No , first is the Lou post cap era bashing or praising , then face off importance talk , then Kovy talkBe careful what you wish for. I'm pretty sure that next up is the monthly Kovalchuk discussion.
2nd round picks are very difficult to talk about because they are the second-most valuable thing the league just gives to teams, and they result in an average-ish or better NHL player something like 5%-10% of the time, with the top being closer to 15% and the bottom closer to 5%. So yeah, while a franchise can get away with trading away their 2nds frequently and not seeing a huge drop in team quality as a result, I still think it sucks that the Devils have only used 6 2nd round picks since 2015. We're starting to see some cracks in the prospect pool already and it's the kind of thing an additional 2nd round pick could've helped solve.
- May 8, 2010
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- May 8, 2010
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SteveCangialosi123
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The Wumpus
bottomless pit supervisor
I went with a guy paradoxically obscure to the point of being noteworthy for that obscurity
Matt Anderson
You make a good point. NJ has generally found borderline players in the recent second outside of Casey with both Boquist and Bastian. Getting a Bastian in the second round is a success to me and if the team had found two more players at least as good as that over the past few years it would have been worth it. That said, they were unlikely to have picked anyone the made a truly big difference as you've noted. To me it's more about the approach to the team. Having a bad prospect pool and a mediocre big club is a bad combination and as a non-UFA destination team I get the incentive of the team to try to trade for competent NHL players with second and third round picks. But I think they needed to prioritize building the prospect pool a bit more during the Shero tenure. They'd have been better off just overpaying some more Lovejoys and trying to sell off short term vets as they expired to add a few more picks here and there. Ultimately it has been drafting that formed the core of the team (Hughes Hischier Bratt Mercer soon to be Luke and Nemec and maybe Schmid) and much better pro scouting by Fitz over Shero when it comes to building the defense. The UFAs don't require assets but big credit goes to Fitz for trading for Siegenthaler Meier and Marino. Those three for a third, Ty Smith, and a first, a possible addiotnal first/second, and Mukhamadullin is a great haul.
By no means am I saying Shero was a great GM but I don’t think it’s fair to say he was awful either (if we want to see AWFUL, see Lou’s twilight years with the Devils….HE is the one who set this franchise back a decade with overpaid garbage veteran bandaid plug replacements).
We agree in that Fitz has proven to be superior and an elite GM with a vision.
With that said, I liked the trade at the time. Yes- it was Fitz who executed on the assets from the deal by drafting Mercer and trading for Siegs. He deserves credit. But….Shero made the decision to trade Hall and we received a very nice return….he also deserved credit for sticking to his guns and not extending Hall. Butterfly effect….so much would be different now if that trade was not made.
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- May 1, 2011
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One thing to consider though is that we rarely see guys (anymore) get a third GM crack. I believe Lou is the only active GM that's on his third team as a GM.
There are a couple of guys in recent years that had 2 GM jobs and then got a president of hockey ops job. Rutherford is currently one of those, but his first GM tenure lasted multiple decades like Lou's did and he also won consecutive cups in recent years at his second landing spot.
Back in the day we saw guys get three, four and sometimes five GM jobs with different teams. Brian Burke had like 3 or 4 GM jobs, then had two president of hockey ops jobs in recent years. I feel like Bryan Murray had 3 or 4 GM jobs over a 30-something year span.
There was some noise about Shero coming to work in Philly after the recent regime change, though I think that was before they took the interim tag off Briere. I'm not sure if that was for a GM specific role or for something else, but it's possible he was also up for the job they ultimately gave to Keith Jones lol.
I Hate Tie DOMI
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He's been interviewed places but most GMs do not get 3 chances.
- May 1, 2011
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I actually went the opposite on Shero that I did with Hynes, and said he would likely be a GM again in the near future, while Hynes almost definitely wouldn't be a head coach in the NHL anytime in the next couple years, barring his head coach being fired and him getting an interim spot.
I said Shero would likely be a GM again in the next 1.5 years after he got fired. Hynes wound up getting a head coaching job in about 5 weeks and Shero wound up getting some kind of advisory role with Minnesota either the next offseason or the offseason after.
I felt like Shero could be the successor to David Poile, especially after Hynes wound up there and with Shero having been assistant GM there before he got his first GM job in Pittsburgh. But this was back in early 2020 when I was saying that. It would wind up being another former Preds personality that would take over for Poile and a much more popular one in Nashville.
It's been 3.5 years now and sometimes guys go considerably longer than that in between GM jobs in the league, but given that Shero has already had 2 GM jobs (and not just 1) and the fact that he's 61 years old, I'd say the odds of him getting another NHL GM job are now very unlikely. I didn't feel that way right after he was fired, but I'd say odds are very much against it at this point.
Dean Lombardi is another guy that had 2 GM jobs, won a couple of cups in his second stop and never got another GM job again. He said on a podcast recently that he did have some offers, but is content with being retired and only working in a part time role from home for the Flyers.
I said Shero would likely be a GM again in the next 1.5 years after he got fired. Hynes wound up getting a head coaching job in about 5 weeks and Shero wound up getting some kind of advisory role with Minnesota either the next offseason or the offseason after.
I felt like Shero could be the successor to David Poile, especially after Hynes wound up there and with Shero having been assistant GM there before he got his first GM job in Pittsburgh. But this was back in early 2020 when I was saying that. It would wind up being another former Preds personality that would take over for Poile and a much more popular one in Nashville.
It's been 3.5 years now and sometimes guys go considerably longer than that in between GM jobs in the league, but given that Shero has already had 2 GM jobs (and not just 1) and the fact that he's 61 years old, I'd say the odds of him getting another NHL GM job are now very unlikely. I didn't feel that way right after he was fired, but I'd say odds are very much against it at this point.
Dean Lombardi is another guy that had 2 GM jobs, won a couple of cups in his second stop and never got another GM job again. He said on a podcast recently that he did have some offers, but is content with being retired and only working in a part time role from home for the Flyers.
Guadana
Registered User
I’m not saying he was awful. He was just bad. Wrong direction, wrongs decisions. Didn’t understand defensive building at all. Was lucky to win lottery. I said he wasn’t average with his retooling strategy(what was a big mistake from the beginning) to build average borderline team, he wasn’t awful to draft wrong players by high picks. He left Devils with some key parts and with some okay parts to trade. He had no success to build play off team and missed on three of the five first/four round picks, he traded away three second round picks away(18,20,21) without compensation it for the draft. It’s just a bad strategy thinking, bad management for a team he got after Lou. I didn’t ask success, I asked good management. After five years he didn’t find any NHL defenseman for Devils team. Only Bahl in the last trade of hart trophy winner and for now we are talking about third pair defenseman.
But he wasn’t awful and drafted two good 1oa, hired good scouts(outside from CHL scout) and Fitz as assistant. But he was the man who hired Castron not as scout but as head scout and he was the gm who aproved Mcleods pick and Zachas pick too. I heard words about its not his fault, but it’s a big question, he was gm in the moment and we are talking about top 6 pick. I can close my eyes on Zachas pick, but he was pretty in the style of what Devils did after. Castron was very good, but approved a lot of questionable decisions, now he is just a scout and Denehhy is a head scout. Dont forget about Hynes story.
Overall he was good with stuff outside coaching, good in trades in the beginning and after he was awful, his strategy vision was wrong from the beginning, and he didn’t make enough steps to provide his strategy - he made good steps in 2017 only. And teams succeed. And he made a lot of gambles. Like tonns.
So he wasn’t awful, but he wasn’t good. He was just bad. Lou isn’t a justification, because Shero did wrong decisions and moves, we aren’t talking about standings, we are talking about wasted years and assets. We have 5-6 players in the roster after five years of his tenur, even if two of them are fourth liners, I’m glad that two of them are Nico and Jack, even if he tried to compete in this years(Rico and Palms scored 30 goals and Shero traded Hall, but he clearly didn’t understand that’s not enough and the situation with defense were bad),(before the year of Jack he spent a lot of assets, team won playoff spot, and after… he did nothing, Nico should grow, Hall should repeat, but he clearly didn’t understand that Schneider cooked, and everything Devils really had was one productive line and magic months of Kinkaid, team should compete, but everything went wrong obviously with defense we had in the moment). His defensive building was a clear disaster, Fitz changed all pieces of defense in two years.
I would say it was a fun ride to watch how Fitz changing everything around lucky 1oa’s and Bratt in the high tempo. I really glad that Shero bring Fitz in the time. And Fitz has absolutely different and more realistic and clear vision of what is working in nhl and what is not. He has his own mistakes and may be even part of his strategy isn’t right, will see. But it’s a different conversation.
this conversation is about Shero, who was bad. And there are no arguments to call it good. Because most of his “success”was the results of his failure and luck. Only. But he made good hirings in Fitz and Castron team in the beginning. And a couple of good trades. In the beginning. So he isn’t awful. If he would draft Kakko or/and Patrick, he would be awful. Thanks God, he drafted Nico and Jack after his failure seasons. That’s all. Wish him luck, but Im not surprised he has no gm job. Because no one want to have gm with bad vision.
The much more likely reason both he and Foote aren't there is they aren't considering them prospects.
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