Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[Devs3cups]

As I said earlier Marino's dragged down by his prior 2 mediocre Pittsburgh years. Dom had him at 6.7 last year.



Well there was already that Sabres fan in the Hellebuyck thread saying we need to move him now to clear cap space and recoup assets traded for Meier

Lol didn’t see this and glad I didn’t. Nico feels like a lifer and it’s way too early to discuss this anyways imo. The Helluybuck thread is a wild one though, you’re a trooper for sticking around in there lol.

 

[Devs3cups]

 

[bossram]

I doubt Bahl ends up playing top 4 minutes this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up 6th. Not going for the Siegs deal was the smart thing. Sure maybe Bahl breaks out and makes a long term deal worth it but that's a lot of risk for a guy with not all that great of a track record. He grew a lot and became a good bottom pair D but Siegs had standout numbers with the Caps and then was arguably the best defensive D in the league in 21-22. There was so much more certainty with Siegs than there is with Bahl.

Siegs also had a slide back this season.

Bahl had pretty strong underlying numbers in his rookie season, albeit in curated minutes. His track record is short, but I don't why you would characterize it as "not all that great". I don't think a longer-term deal would have been a huge risk given the AAV would have been even less than Siegs'.

He looks like the pretty natural replacement to fill-in Graves' minutes in the top-four. Luke isn't going to be playing shutdown minutes with Marino to start.

Again, as I said, I have no issue with the contract Fitz gave out. It's very good work. If Bahl improves this season, they still have a chance to extend him during his bridge deal, like they did with Siegenthaler.

 

[RSeen]

I doubt Bahl ends up playing top 4 minutes this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up 6th. Not going for the Siegs deal was the smart thing. Sure maybe Bahl breaks out and makes a long term deal worth it but that's a lot of risk for a guy with not all that great of a track record. He grew a lot and became a good bottom pair D but Siegs had standout numbers with the Caps and then was arguably the best defensive D in the league in 21-22. There was so much more certainty with Siegs than there is with Bahl.

Even if Bahl plays well the next two years, I doubt his next contract will be overly expensive given he is a stay at home Dman.

This is a good signing IMO. And if he continues to evolve, he has the potential to be a very good shutdown Dman, which would be great.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

This whole shift was so awesome from Bahl. One of my favorite moments of the season.

Definitely a preview of how he’s going to make his money in the NHL. He uses his size much more than Graves did.

 

[RSeen]

Siegs also had a slide back this season.

Bahl had pretty strong underlying numbers in his rookie season, albeit in curated minutes. His track record is short, but I don't why you would characterize it as "not all that great". I don't think a longer-term deal would have been a huge risk given the AAV would have been even less than Siegs'.

He looks like the pretty natural replacement to fill-in Graves' minutes in the top-four. Luke isn't going to be playing shutdown minutes with Marino to start.

Again, as I said, I have no issue with the contract Fitz gave out. It's very good work. If Bahl improves this season, they still have a chance to extend him during his bridge deal, like they did with Siegenthaler.

Given what Luke showed in the playoffs, I think Luke could take that top 4 spot. Bahl could rotate in with Siegs or perhaps Luke plays 3rd pair and gets around 18-19 minutes due to PP time etc.

 

[Hisch13r]

Siegs also had a slide back this season.

Bahl had pretty strong underlying numbers in his rookie season, albeit in curated minutes. His track record is short, but I don't why you would characterize it as "not all that great". I don't think a longer-term deal would have been a huge risk given the AAV would have been even less than Siegs'.

He looks like the pretty natural replacement to fill-in Graves' minutes in the top-four. Luke isn't going to be playing shutdown minutes with Marino to start.

Again, as I said, I have no issue with the contract Fitz gave out. It's very good work. If Bahl improves this season, they still have a chance to extend him during his bridge deal, like they did with Siegenthaler.

Siegs started the year insane and ended strong but yeah the middle was rough. Even then though it was still a really good season on the whole

Because it's not all that great of a track record. It's fine. He's a pretty good bottom pair D. It's not like his underlying were fantastic or anything. Would it have been a massive risk? No probably not because of the lower cap hit but I still wouldn't want to go like 2 mil over 6 and then have him regress. I don't really know if he'll end up being good enough to where he'd outplaying that contract enough to where I'd really rather him over someone maybe slightly worse for a mil cheaper

I've been wanting to put Bahl with Marino or Dougie and let Luke cook against weaker comp but I don't know if they end up doing that and even if they do I think Luke ends up playing more.

 

[bossram]

Given what Luke showed in the playoffs, I think Luke could take that top 4 spot. Bahl could rotate in with Siegs or perhaps Luke plays 3rd pair and gets around 18-19 minutes due to PP time etc.

I see Luke's chance in the top-four being more with Hamilton in a very offensively-tilted orientation, and Siegs or Bahl playing with Marino, than actually slotting into Graves' old slot.

Marino-Graves ate the some of the worst minutes you could feed any pair: High proportion of d-zone draws and steady diet of opposing teams' best players. And they did well enough to subsidize the rest of the club to great success. This was pretty evident during the Devils' mid-season swoon when Marino went down.

Luke was electric in the playoffs, but I also saw a lot that would make him a defensive liability too. Given how Lindy uses Marino, I'm not confident that will work in that role.

Siegs started the year insane and ended strong but yeah the middle was rough. Even then though it was still a really good season on the whole

Because it's not all that great of a track record. It's fine. He's a pretty good bottom pair D. It's not like his underlying were fantastic or anything. Would it have been a massive risk? No probably not because of the lower cap hit but I still wouldn't want to go like 2 mil over 6 and then have him regress. I don't really know if he'll end up being good enough to where he'd outplaying that contract enough to where I'd really rather him over someone maybe slightly worse for a mil cheaper

I've been wanting to put Bahl with Marino or Dougie and let Luke cook against weaker comp but I don't know if they end up doing that and even if they do I think Luke ends up playing more.

I guess I'm just more optimistic on Bahl. I think something like $2M x 5 ends up working very well for the Devils if Bahl improves at all.

As I said above, I have misgivings about Luke defensively and don't think he plays with Marino in the top-four. I think there is a scenario where Luke plays more total minutes than Bahl if the team is behind and needs to score (plus PP time), but doesn't actually play on a top-four pair.

 

[glenwo2]

Just noticed that as Goodrow caught his balance after that hit, he actually 12-6'ed Bahl with his stick which(correct me If I'm wrong) should've been an automatic ejection (and likely suspension).

 

[Guttersniped]

maybe/definitely i’m just extra high right now but i have no idea what points you are making that i haven’t already. what i originally said was that shero’s non-moves should be lauded as often as his bad moves are demonized.

the points that i DID understand, i agree with. like, yeah he didn’t focus on the defense. he clearly sought to upgrade the offense first (i would assume because forwards are generally lower risk in terms of contracts). an idiot would say shero had no plan, a reasonable person might say they disagreed with his plan. that’s the difference. shero didn’t have the best prospect pool in hockey at the time of his firing? agreed. but what he had amassed considering what he started out with was kind of miraculous. and those mediocre players like maltsev, zetterberg, okhotyuk etc were used as trade pieces.

i don’t think he should’ve been fired, but i’m grateful he surrounded himself with castrons and fitzgeralds while he was there. we’re in really good shape now, in large part due to shero, so i don’t actually care that he was fired. i’m sure he’ll survive.

i’m not defending his honor lol, i’m saying the ignorant revisionist history that goes on like clockwork every summer is borderline delusional.

And I have to hear the horseshit about a “surplus picks” when Shero traded our own 2nd four years in row, which meant from 2015-21 (7 drafts) we drafted in the 2nd round four times and used our own 2nd twice. We all have our crosses to bear.

I didn’t ask if you cared if he was fired, I asked you if you wanted him to remain GM instead of being fired. (I also asked if you thought he deserved it but there was two questions.)

I still never had my answer on how you would have felt if we were buyers at the 2020 TDL, if the 2019-20 went better for us, and Shero was able to squint and pretend we were competitive again. You know, if Shero did what he was actually trying to do, before reality stepped in it and crushed us.

And sorry if I think poor asset management, directionless team building, as well as the ridiculously bad handling of Hynes non-firing, all seems worthy of a pink slip to me. Must be my delusions getting the better of me.

 

[njdevils1982]

As I said earlier Marino's dragged down by his prior 2 mediocre Pittsburgh years. Dom had him at 6.7 last year.



Well there was already that Sabres fan in the Hellebuyck thread saying we need to move him now to clear cap space and recoup assets traded for Meier

maybe that sabres fan should worry about their own teams issues instead

 

[MartyOwns]

And I have to hear the horseshit about a “surplus picks” when Shero traded our own 2nd four years in row, which meant from 2015-21 (7 drafts) we drafted in the 2nd round four times and used our own 2nd twice. We all have our crosses to bear.

I didn’t ask if you cared if he was fired, I asked you if you wanted him to remain GM instead of being fired. (I also asked if you thought he deserved it but there was two questions.)

I still never had my answer on how you would have felt if we were buyers at the 2020 TDL, if the 2019-20 went better for us, and Shero was able to squint and pretend we were competitive again. You know, if Shero did what he was actually trying to do, before reality stepped in it and crushed us.

And sorry if I think poor asset management, directionless team building, as well as the ridiculously bad handling of Hynes non-firing, all seems worthy of a pink slip to me. Must be my delusions getting the better of me.

i did want him to remain GM when he was fired because i don’t think he deserved it. i’m just not sure of the relevance to the discussion i was having.

the 19-20 team had 68 points. you’re asking me how i would’ve felt if we had a better season and were buyers at the deadline? um…good, i guess?

what was shero “trying to do”? remain superficially active while clearly trying to lose into high draft picks? that’s what you do when you have almost 0 assets to sell in a rebuild, never mind the lou contract abortions he had to buy out. that’s why context is important. shero didn’t “luck out” with 2 first overall picks. he took it on the nose for years to get those picks because he had the balls to do what lou never did. and he got fired at the end…maybe that’s poetic, the final casualty of lou’s idiotic regime.

 

[NjDevsRR]

“f*** that shit”
- Ray Shero on Pavel Zacha

 

[glenwo2]

 

[Triumph]

I guess I'm just more optimistic on Bahl. I think something like $2M x 5 ends up working very well for the Devils if Bahl improves at all.

I can't imagine any defenseman signing $2M x 5. It's just not a contract that we see guys sign, especially not on the cusp of the cap exploding.

 

[bossram]

I can't imagine any defenseman signing $2M x 5. It's just not a contract that we see guys sign, especially not on the cusp of the cap exploding.

I agree, that seems a significant under-estimate. Just going off the number HiscI3r threw out.

 

[Hollywood Nosebleed]

I'm a little late to the Shero debate, but I feel like he gets more shit than he deserves. He was definitely not perfect (sucked at finding defensemen), but I think we were very lucky to have him after Lou. He might have traded a way a bunch of 2nds and 3rds, but I think he did that because we were so devoid of talent. We needed to insulate our youngsters (Nico, Bratt, Butcher (who turned into a pumpkin), with actual NHL players. Instead of signing mediocre vets to 4-5 year contracts to fill out the team he used 2nds to take "reasonable" gambles on players with 2ish years left. This way we weren't locked in long term when the young kids needed new contracts. Also having Hall kind of pushed him to get Subban, and Gusev since he wanted to convince him to resign before his injury.

 

[None Shall Pass]

He might have traded a way a bunch of 2nds and 3rds, but I think he did that because we were so devoid of talent. We needed to insulate our youngsters (Nico, Bratt, Butcher (who turned into a pumpkin), with actual NHL players. Instead of signing mediocre vets to 4-5 year contracts to fill out the team he used 2nds to take "reasonable" gambles on players with 2ish years left. This way we weren't locked in long term when the young kids needed new contracts.

This is a really interesting way to look at it, and I'd agree.

 

[Nubmer6]

i dont hate the palat signing

or at least.. i wouldnt use the word hate!

its overpaid and too long but hes a big piece for us i think

his leadership cant be understated; plus when he got healthy he looked good!

Ya, perhaps "hate" is too strong of a word, at least in regards to the Palat trade. I'd more say I strongly disagreed with it.

With the Mueller trade I was quite distraught, and had to have a few HFDevils members here talk me down.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Ya, perhaps "hate" is too strong of a word, at least in regards to the Palat trade. I'd more say I strongly disagreed with it.

With the Mueller trade I was quite distraught, and had to have a few HFDevils members here talk me down.

Dude had all the skills to be a formidable transition dman, but nope. Never seen someone so terrified of the puck. Shame.

 

[Guttersniped]

i did want him to remain GM when he was fired because i don’t think he deserved it. i’m just not sure of the relevance to the discussion i was having.

the 19-20 team had 68 points. you’re asking me how i would’ve felt if we had a better season and were buyers at the deadline? um…good, i guess?

what was shero “trying to do”? remain superficially active while clearly trying to lose into high draft picks? that’s what you do when you have almost 0 assets to sell in a rebuild, never mind the lou contract abortions he had to buy out. that’s why context is important. shero didn’t “luck out” with 2 first overall picks. he took it on the nose for years to get those picks because he had the balls to do what lou never did. and he got fired at the end…maybe that’s poetic, the final casualty of lou’s idiotic regime.

See, I actually don’t have any emotional investment in the “Lou = Bad and therefore Shero = Good” narrative so he isn’t weirdly bulletproof with me. Good Lord.

And winning the 1OA as the 5th and 3rd seed was literally luck.

Taking it on the chin is actually having the worst team in the NHL, we never did that. We were dumb lucky while sucking. Hell we won it as the 8th seed in 2011, we’re the luckiest team ever in the damn draft.

But context is not having 2nd round pick so we could trade up with our extra 1st in 2021. (That was traded for a player who was gone before that pick was even used.)

Or not having an early 2020 2nd pick to either trade up or just draft in the stacked early part of that round. Maybe we could have had a shutdown center prospect (Bordeleau) or RHD of @StevenToddIves dreams (Faber).

Let’s not forget sending Fitz down to observe Hynes for a month, then not firing him. Shero kind of deserved to get shitcanned just for that farce. Everyone knew Hynes would get fired during the next losing streak (and did).

But poor asset management and iffy team building was why he needed to go. But sure, boo hiss Lou. I’m having a some insomnia and I’m a bit cranky, but come now.

Shero’s a big boy, he can stand on his own two feet and get evaluated on his own work, and win points for just being the “anti-Lou”. They both rightly got shown the door. You don’t have to go to the mattresses for this guy because of 10 year old debates over Lou.

I think Shero did some good stuff around Hockey Ops but the idea of another season of him doing whatever he was doing… yikes.

Granted, the Schneider trade/contract arguably took out both Hynes and Shero, and was second worst thing Lou ever did, but that’s hockey for ya. (That’s the only problem contract that mattered once we had plenty of cap space.)

 

[MasterofGrond]

Why even talk about old bad GMs when we have one of the 5 best in the league right now

Why you heff to be mad

 

[Guttersniped]

Why even talk about old bad GMs when we have one of the 5 best in the league right now

Why you heff to be mad

I can’t always be rainbows and sunshine guys, it’s not humanly possible.

 

[Aurinko]

Time to catch up what has happened in the offseason...

I'm primary Haula fan and the aim is to try to include him in every single pointless discussion, but MAN have the Devils been grabbing some other of my favorite players as well: Miller and Nosek I absolutely love. Team first guys that play with real love for the team and game. And hey, it doesn't hurt that both happend to be very good friends with Haula, that just means more quality passes for my guy in red

 

[britdevil]

Shero was fine. Yeah he made some bad moves, but also some really good ones.

He also went Nico over Patrick and most importantly, didn’t hand cuff the team to an injured pouty Taylor Hall.