Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

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Triumph

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You are trying to give credit to Shero for what Fitz did. It was Fitz who traded horrible defenseman Smith for good defenseman Marino, it was Fitz who traded Sharangovich who losted his roster spot. Sharangovich was good pick, but again I'm praising scouts for late good picks.

I'm not doing that. The point is that those players held value for other teams and the reason they did that is because they were good draft picks, and the GM is the person who puts the scouts in place to make those picks. The Devils had poor to awful drafting for 10-15 years because they often weren't looking for the right things and by the end of Lou's tenure, they were hardly even looking for players outside of North America.

Yes, the GM has to make the good trade, but you can't swindle everyone.

Shero traded a lot of picks, especially for a team without prospect pool he listed value of picks in later trades. We didn't have 2nds in 20, 21 and 18 as I remember, all because of Shero. Three seconds after 5 years He didn't signed enough free agents to trade then after, and when he did - it worked pretty well.
And we even don't talk about his defensive building disaster(on the market, on the draft), lack of signs on the open market for a team without depth with trying to compete,(again I prefer to not trade picks and try to rebuild, but its Shero who tried to retool and didn't make enough movements to make it hapoen), we are not talking about his wishful thinking in trades, about Hynes etc.
He was close to be horrible. And if he would draft Kakko "or" Nolan Patrick( or "and") - his name would be synonym of the worst/the failurest gm ever. He was in one step from that.
He didn't, so he was just bad.

He wasn't bad. He was given an extremely difficult situation, harder than almost any new GM is given - an old, bad team, with ownership not committed to a full rebuild. Whether he talked them into not doing a full rebuild or whether they told him they weren't ready to do that, we'll never know. We know he tried to trade most of the core in 2017, but most of the core had no-trade clauses and said no. Now was he saved from himself, maybe, is it possible that if Hall stays healthy and Schneider holds up, they trade a 1st round pick at the deadline in 2019, and now we're sitting here in 2022 with a mediocre team? Sure. The job he was hired to do, he was fine.
 

NJDevilsFan21

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Shero was not bad imo. Lou was far, far worse in the latter years, imo. No one would have turned that team around by 2018. Trading for Cory was a huge mistake in hindsight as he cost us years or higher picks, as was taking Zacha at #6 in a loaded draft which was a Conte pick if I recall.

The Hall trade along with drafting Nico was imo, the starting point for Shero's rebuild. Bratt was also drafted by team Shero. Still, it's not surprising that didn't work so soon, but at least Shero worked some magic that turned Larsson into Hall into assets that lead to Mercer and/or Timo Meier (who ironically we could have just picked ourselves in 2015).

Fitz on the other hand ended walking into a situation far better than what Shero started with (Nico, Bratt, Zacha) and was also given Jack, Luke, Nemec, Mercer and I believe a few other assets that allowed us to land Timo.

This is not ton take away from Fitz, who has played everything perfectly thus far. Just that Shero was not bad - in fact far from it. He was given the task to squeeze water from a rock when he got here. The fact we even made the playoffs at all during that span was nothing short of a miracle.
 
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Eggtimer

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Shero was “decent “ . Depends on who you compare him to . Compared to some GMs who set their franchises back years , he did a decent job .
Fitz has so far done an amazing job . He had a plan and has stuck to it perfectly .
Only thing I can botch about is his drafting earlier on . Stillman pick still bothers me but in all fairness , COVID kinda screwed everything up scouting wise .
 

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i love the ‘awful defense building’ argument lol. i bet it was a lot easier for fitz to focus on the defense when shero had largely taken care of the offense. go look at our forward depth (or hell, our entire team’s depth) when shero started vs when he left.

lou left shero with a pile of stones to build a mansion with. he somehow managed to build the first floor and is chastised for not building the second one at the same time. just unreal how delusional some people are.
I really think Shero didn't have a good gauge on defensemen.

i believe you boild from the back end forward and I think most GMs do too, but between all the promising D he inherited (Merill, Severson, Gelinas, etc) he probably thought had more than he actually had.

I also felt he stuck too much to the "fast, attacking, supportive" motto with the D, sacrificing size and defensive ability.

On top of that, I don't think he ever went full rebuild. He should have traded Schneider (who probably would have been worth a lot at the time) away if he did.

As for trading away 2nd and 3rd rounders, I think he was continually trying to recapture lightning in a bottle after his initial success trading for Palms.
 

Guadana

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trading a couple of extra 2nd or 3rd round picks is nothing. those picks have a better shot of becoming nothing than becoming something. They probably tried to fast track things after they made the playoffs in 2018, which might have been a mistake, but still.

If he had traded multiple firsts for 28 year olds or something, sure I would be all over him too. I was mostly fine with the trades he made. He also got Palmieri, got Hall, etc etc. Also, take a look at the draft picks under him. Hischier, Bratt, Joey Anderson (got us an NHLer for a year+), Boqvist, Zetterlund, ty Smith (got us Marino), Sharangovich (late round pick turned into middle 6 player, got us Toffoli).
High second round picks for a team without prospect pool can bring you NHLers, may be even top-6/top-4 players.
Anderson, Zetterlund, Smith and Sharangovich were traded by Fitz, not by Shero, they were not nhl regulars, really impactfull players in the moment. Sharangovixh and Zeterrlund were good picks, Smith was disaster. Biqvust signed league minimum.
And after Palmieri and Hall there are no etc. He made good Vatanen trade. Like I said his campaign of 2017-2018 was the only good, when he made steps to make his strategy working. His trade of Palmieri was good in vacuum, what he did all around, how he lost assets, was vaste overall. In Halls case too.

Like I said, if he would drafted wrong 1OA, he would be the worst. He was just bad. With a couple of fun trades and right 1oa decision after failed seasons.

Manager is a profession of management, decision making and strategy building. He was in bad place, but noone asked success. He made wrong decision to retool. He made wrong steps or no moves to help with retool. He failed and was lucky to win draft lottery. He made right picks. He hired good scouts(outside from chl scout). He believed in wrong coach, he clearly didn't understand defensive building. But he made a couple of really good trades in vacuum. He had good 2017 2018 campaign for his wrong strategy.
I'm not doing that. The point is that those players held value for other teams and the reason they did that is because they were good draft picks, and the GM is the person who puts the scouts in place to make those picks. The Devils had poor to awful drafting for 10-15 years because they often weren't looking for the right things and by the end of Lou's tenure, they were hardly even looking for players outside of North America.

Yes, the GM has to make the good trade, but you can't swindle everyone.



He wasn't bad. He was given an extremely difficult situation, harder than almost any new GM is given - an old, bad team, with ownership not committed to a full rebuild. Whether he talked them into not doing a full rebuild or whether they told him they weren't ready to do that, we'll never know. We know he tried to trade most of the core in 2017, but most of the core had no-trade clauses and said no. Now was he saved from himself, maybe, is it possible that if Hall stays healthy and Schneider holds up, they trade a 1st round pick at the deadline in 2019, and now we're sitting here in 2022 with a mediocre team? Sure. The job he was hired to do, he was fine.
Again you are trying to cover Shero by failure of the end of Lou era. Again, I didn`t ask success, I asked right strategy and right decisions. Shero picked wrong strategy and made a lot of wrong decisions to provide his wrong strategy. He waste time of his traded players, waste value of picks, could make any right decision with defensive building. And was lucky to win lotteries.
He was bad as general maneger. But he made a couple of good trades and vacuum and the only thing he did really right was hiring good scouts. After 5 years its 5-6 players. And Fitz, who monetized Shero`s muddy work in the best way he could. (and even he isn`t perfect, but it`s a different story).
The road to failure is paved with good intentions.
 
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High second round picks for a team without prospect pool can bring you NHLers, may be even top-6/top-4 players.
Anderson, Zetterlund, Smith and Sharangovich were traded by Fitz, not by Shero, they were not nhl regulars, really impactfull players in the moment. Sharangovixh and Zeterrlund were good picks, Smith was disaster. Biqvust signed league minimum.
And after Palmieri and Hall there are no etc. He made good Vatanen trade. Like I said his campaign of 2017-2018 was the only good, when he made steps to make his strategy working. His trade of Palmieri was good in vacuum, what he did all around, how he lost assets, was vaste overall. In Halls case too.

Like I said, if he would drafted wrong 1OA, he would be the worst. He was just bad. With a couple of fun trades and right 1oa decision after failed seasons.

Manager is a profession of management, decision making and strategy building. He was in bad place, but noone asked success. He made wrong decision to retool. He made wrong steps or no moves to help with retool. He failed and was lucky to win draft lottery. He made right picks. He hired good scouts(outside from chl scout). He believed in wrong coach, he clearly didn't understand defensive building. But he made a couple of really good trades in vacuum. He had good 2017 2018 campaign for his wrong strategy.

Again you are trying to cover Shero by failure of the end of Lou era. Again, I didn`t ask success, I asked right strategy and right decisions. Shero picked wrong strategy and made a lot of wrong decisions to provide his wrong strategy. He waste time of his traded players, waste value of picks, could make any right decision with defensive building. And was lucky to win lotteries.
He was bad as general maneger. But he made a couple of good trades and vacuum and the only thing he did really right was hiring good scouts. After 5 years its 5-6 players. And Fitz, who monetized Shero`s muddy work in the best way he could. (and even he isn`t perfect, but it`s a different story).
The road to failure is paved with good intentions.

and who drafted those guys? You can't have it both ways dude.

Smith was not a "disaster" lol thats absurd. Everyone agreed he was a steal where he was picked.
 
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Guadana

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i love the ‘awful defense building’ argument lol. i bet it was a lot easier for fitz to focus on the defense when shero had largely taken care of the offense. go look at our forward depth (or hell, our entire team’s depth) when shero started vs when he left.

lou left shero with a pile of stones to build a mansion with. he somehow managed to build the first floor and is chastised for not building the second one at the same time. just unreal how delusional some people are.
He had five years. Team hadn`t any defense. He preferd to pick Mcleod when team had Henrique, Zajac and Zacha. He signed questionable puckmovers mostly. He prefered Smith over Miller. He mostly didn`t picked defensemen in the first three round until 2019. His choices were Smith and Walsh - both were what they were and what they are in the moment. And he preferd to sign Butcher and year after he traded for Subban. If we will dive into his 5 years, his best defensive move was only Vatanen trade. And the second best was Hall trade, when we got Bahl, right in the end of his tenure.

He cleeeaarlyyy didn`t understand how NHL should work and how it should be build. Second part was mentioned before. No one asked for wins, he picked wrong strategy and provided it by wrong decisions. That`s all.
He wasn`t good, he wasn`t decent. He was bad. Only bad. If he would make wrong decisions with 1OA picks(when team tried to compete and failed, and Shero was lucky to win lottery twice), he would be awful. He was in one step to be awful. Thanks God\Devils, he wasn`t.
 

Camille the Eel

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Don’t forget that Fitz himself was a Shero hire (I believe) as assistant GM. And that Shero also presided over the relationship with new ownership that involved Lou’s exit. If we don’t move on from Lou there I doubt we are where we are today. It also wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the business management of the team in the arena and the building of the fan base improved under Shero.
 

Guadana

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and who drafted those guys? You can't have it both ways dude.

Smith was not a "disaster" lol thats absurd. Everyone agreed he was a steal where he was picked.
Smith was freaking awful. If you like some points from defenseman, it`s okay, but he is awful defenseman. I was VEEERY pro trade after his first season, btw his advenced stats were not good(if you can`t trust my eye test) and somehow Fitz traded him for Marino after freaking disaster year. If you have someone to agree with yourself about Smith as a good defenseman, than it`s ok for you guys. Smith was okay pick, but in the bigger picture he is another defensive failure of Shero. He COULD be okay defenseman here, if we would have good defensive partners for him, but we hadn`t. Overall he isn`t the type of defenseman who is working really well in modern NHL. Even if he will produce 30-40 points.

Scouts drafted those guys. And outside of Sharangovich, we don`t have really sexy price for this guys. And even if we are talking about good compensation - it`s a Fitzy work. We didnt have this kind of trades from Shero. He traded two good nhlers and high non first round picks in good trades. If we will praise Fitz for Filmon or Shero for Sharangovich, we will make mistake. We can praise them for hiring scouts. The only real thing I can see here is the strategy to draft from MHL\KHL\Belarussia by late rounds picks with Gritsyuk, Sharangovich, Bardakov, Barabosha, Karpovich, Looks like a good strategy. Even if not all of them will pan out.

I think most of the 2nds he traded weren't ours, and thus lower 2nd rounders.
We didn`t have second round picks in 18, 20 and 21 years. (i believe we even didn`t have some thirds too). It`s a three secound round picks from five years for a team without prospect pool in the beggining. If it`s a good decision by maneger, than sorry, I view it differently.
 

TrufleShufle

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You guys can debate and make cases all the way back to Lou not locking up Parise about who did what right and wrong, but like with anything, changing or wishing for a different outcome from any single moment could change everything.

No matter what I felt at the time of any signing, lack there of, trade or pick, I'm glad every single one happened and wouldn't change a thing now. We currently have one of the most exciting teams ever to watch and most locked up for a long time. We are in an absolutely amazing position to watch exciting hockey for a long time while competing for a cup.

I thank Fitz/Shero/Lou for every great and terrible thing that was done to get us here.
 
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NjDevsRR

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Guadana

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You guys can debate and make cases all the way back to Lou not locking up Parise about who did what right and wrong, but like with anything, changing or wishing for a different outcome from any single moment could change everything.

No matter what I felt at the time of any signing, lack there of, trade or pick, I'm glad every single one happened and wouldn't change a thing now. We currently have one of the most exciting teams ever to watch and most locked up for a long time. We are in an absolutely amazing position to watch exciting hockey for a long time while competing for a cup.

I thank Fitz/Shero/Lou for every great and terrible thing that was done to get us here.
Absoultely agree. We don`t need to be angry on our destiny now. Shero wasn`t good to build average retooling team, Shero wasn`t awful to left us with nothing to build around or trade.

This is simply using the power of hindsight to blind and distort reality.

Look at any scouting report pre draft regarding Smith and that will show that to be the case. Most Devil fans at the time were more than pleased with the pick when it happened.
Most devils fans hated Mukhamadullin picks. Somehow he was a key piece in trade for Meier.
 

bossram

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Bahl at $1.05M for two years is great. Getting that 2nd year is definitely a big plus if he continues to grow.
Just even more excellent work from Fitz. Getting two years on that AAV for a guy who will play top-four minutes for the Devils is fantastic value.

I was hoping a longer-term Siegethaler-esque deal for Bahl to get him locked up, but this is still really good.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Absoultely agree. We don`t need to be angry on our destiny now. Shero wasn`t good to build average retooling team, Shero wasn`t awful to left us with nothing to build around or trade.


Most devils fans hated Mukhamadullin picks. Somehow he was a key piece in trade for Meier.

and so was Zetterlund, who was drafted by Shero, with a pick he traded away Eric Gelinas for. See how your argument falls apart quickly with things like this?
 

Nubmer6

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Shero only made one move that I absolutely hated - picking up Mueller.

So far, Fitz has also made only one move I hated - signing Palat to that contract.
 
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Guadana

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I didn't hate it, but I hated that we didn't trade down to get him.
It wasn`t about the pick overall, it was about "Smith was good, everybody were happy", I made example when not everybody were happy.

Again, if we talk about Fitz work, we can make right mark about his love to draft his player no matter how he managed this pick. He could make some trades to grab more picks. Like he did with Vanecek. And it`s not the only of his issues. But for now he made a lot of good moves, that covers his weak moves easily. And for now I like his way to build defense and his overall strategy... before this summer(some moves I like, some moves i`m not). Now I have more questions and want to watch how this actual movements will going.
 

MartyOwns

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He had five years. Team hadn`t any defense. He preferd to pick Mcleod when team had Henrique, Zajac and Zacha.
i stopped reading there lol. he picked mcleod (not the preferred guy in hindsight but one of our best playoff performers this year) even though we had middling bums who aren’t even on the team anymore. just absolute nonsense. i mean, how could fitz draft stillman when we already had nolan foote?
 

Guadana

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and so was Zetterlund, who was drafted by Shero, with a pick he traded away Eric Gelinas for. See how your argument falls apart quickly with things like this?
greatly. Zetterlund is okay NHL player for now, who wasn`t a key part in trade. Overall Zetterlund doesnt effect on "overall building average retooling team" or "awful team without any pieces to build". He was okay "piece to trade". Or I don`t know why you quote this my post.

i stopped reading there lol. he picked mcleod (not the preferred guy in hindsight but one of our best playoff performers this year) even though we had middling bums who aren’t even on the team anymore. just absolute nonsense. i mean, how could fitz draft stillman when we already had nolan foote?
It`s a normal for mistaken, uninformed people to not read.

if Devils would drafted best or second best defenseaman who were available, it wouldn`t hurt. Even without Mcleod performance this spring.

Fitz Stillman`s pick was a mistake. It was obvious in the moment, it is more obvious now.
 
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