Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023 offseason part II

[MartyOwns]

greatly. Zetterlund is okay NHL player for now, who wasn`t a key part in trade. Overall Zetterlund doesnt effect on "overall building average retooling team" or "awful team without any pieces to build". He was okay "piece to trade". Or I don`t know why you quote this my post.


It`s a normal for mistaken, uninformed people to not read.

if Devils would drafted best or second best defenseaman who were available, it wouldn`t hurt. Even without Mcleod performance this spring.

so you’re saying if the devils always drafted the guy who turned out to be the best one available in hindsight, it wouldn’t hurt? man i’m glad i read that, i feel a lot less misinformed. you and glen should put out a weekly newsletter with your insights.

your narrow, myopic opinions on the lou/shero/fitz transition are funnier now than it was a couple of years ago when this team was in the shitter. nevertheless, in the interest of agreeing on something, i think we can both say that it ultimately doesn’t matter how we got here, we’re just happy it happened.

 

[AfroThunder396]

I am so exhausted from catching up on the last page. Someone please put me out of my misery.

 

[Blackjack]

I am so exhausted from catching up on the last page. Someone please put me out of my misery.

All must suffer

 

[jkrdevil]

The Smith pick was fine given the draft position. The key with those types of players is knowing when to cut bait with them. Fitz sold him off at the right time.

Anyways, re: Bahl. Fine deal.

 

[Guadana]

About Smith pick its more about overall defensive building by Shero than specific pick.
I'm tired from this conversation.

 

[Guttersniped]

i love the ‘awful defense building’ argument lol. i bet it was a lot easier for fitz to focus on the defense when shero had largely taken care of the offense. go look at our forward depth (or hell, our entire team’s depth) when shero started vs when he left.

lou left shero with a pile of stones to build a mansion with. he somehow managed to build the first floor and is chastised for not building the second one at the same time. just unreal how delusional some people are.

Shero barely drafted any defensemen and his few trades for defense were underwhelming too. (Vats being the best.)

That’s why the Summer of Shero was bad. It did not feel good to me. Our roster defense was bad and prospect pool defense was bad and he traded an endless parade of 2nds.

I’ve asked this before. What do you think our future would have been like if we miraculously stumbled our way to the playoffs in 2019-20?

We’ve traded our 2020 2nd, 2020 3rd and 2021 2nd away already. How does Shero improve the team? By trading our 1sts? You think he would stop sacrificing the future at any point?

He never attempted to do proper rebuild, unless a lot of late picks and some trades for some players a few years from UFA are your idea of a rebuild.

He made some nice individual trades (Hall, Palmieri) and not so nice ones I understood (Muller). He did some nice work on the executive side. He should have drafted more, and no, extra 7th round picks don’t count.

This is what we got from losing in 2019-20 alone:
We got Bahl, Siegenthaler and Mercer from the Hall trade.
We got Meier with Mukhamadullin, who we got from the Coleman 2020 TDL deal.
We traded for Graves with the 2nd from the Greene 2020 TDL.
We drafted Dawes from a pick we got from the Vats 2020 TDL deal.
We drafted Vilén from a pick we got from Simmonds 2020 TDL deal.

The dude got fired. Do you think he shouldn’t have gotten fired? Do you wish he wasn’t fired? My answer those two questions is “no” and unless your answer to both of those questions is “yes” then what are you defending here? His honor? His likability?

Yeah, he got a tough assignment. Life’s not just not fair I guess.

We were 3rd in The Athletic Farm System but a lot of that was Jack Hughes. This was the list. (And the void at defense beyond Smith is a problem.)

1. Jack Hughes, C, USNTDP-USHL
Tier: Special NHL prospect
2. Ty Smith, D, Spokane-WHL
Tier: High-end/very good bubble
3. Jesper Boqvist, LW, Brynas-SHL
Tier: Very good/legit bubble
4. Michael McLeod, C, New Jersey-NHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
5. Daniil Misyul, D, Yaroslavl-KHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
6. Akira Schmid, G, Omaha-USHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
7. Aarne Talvitie, LW, Penn State-Big 10
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
8. Gilles Senn, G, Davos-NLA
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
9. Marian Studenic, RW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
10. Nathan Bastian, RW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
11. Reilly Walsh, D, Harvard-ECAC
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
12. Colton White, D, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
13. Graeme Clarke, RW, Ottawa-OHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
14. Brandon Gignac, LW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Has a chance
15. Michael Vukojevic, D, Kitchener-OHL
Tier: Has a chance
16. Fabian Zetterlund, RW, Farjestad-SHL
Tier: Has a chance
17. Mikhail Maltsev, C, SKA-KHL
Tier: Has a chance
18. Nikita Okhotyuk, D, Ottawa-OHL
Tier: Has a chance
19. Nikola Pasic, LW, Linkoping-J20 SuperElit
Tier: Has a chance
20. Tyce Thompson, RW, Providence-Hockey East
Tier: Has a chance
21. Xavier Bernard, D, Charlottetown-QMJHL
Tier: Has a chance
22. Matthew Hellickson, D, Notre Dame-Big 10
Tier: Has a chance
23. Patrick Moynihan, RW, USNTDP-USHL
Tier: Has a chance

Depth Players
Yegor Sharangovich, C, Binghamton-AHL (Age: 21)
Mitch Hoelscher, C, Ottawa-OHL (19)
Arseni Gritsyuk, RW, Ufa-MHL (18)
Case McCarthy, D, USNTDP-USHL (18)

Organizational Top 10 (23 and Under)​

1. Jack Hughes, C (18)
2. Nico Hischier, C (20)
3. Ty Smith, D (19)
4. Jesper Bratt, LW (21)
5. Pavel Zacha, C (22)
6. Jesper Boqvist, LW (20)
7. Mackenzie Blackwood, G (22)
8. Michael McLeod, C (21)
9. Daniil Misyul, D (18)
10. Akira Schmid, G (19)

 

[Guttersniped]

The Smith pick was fine given the draft position. The key with those types of players is knowing when to cut bait with them. Fitz sold him off at the right time.

Anyways, re: Bahl. Fine deal.

I was thrilled with the Smith pick, I didn’t watch the draft but I remember whooping and hollering when it happened.

 

[Guadana]

so you’re saying if the devils always drafted the guy who turned out to be the best one available in hindsight, it wouldn’t hurt? man i’m glad i read that, i feel a lot less misinformed. you and glen should put out a weekly newsletter with your insights.

your narrow, myopic opinions on the lou/shero/fitz transition are funnier now than it was a couple of years ago when this team was in the shitter. nevertheless, in the interest of agreeing on something, i think we can both say that it ultimately doesn’t matter how we got here, we’re just happy it happened.

First part wasn't what I said.
The value judgment is not reasoned. Arguments and logical line would be helpful for the begging.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Shero only made one move that I absolutely hated - picking up Mueller.

So far, Fitz has also made only one move I hated - signing Palat to that contract.

i dont hate the palat signing

or at least.. i wouldnt use the word hate!

its overpaid and too long but hes a big piece for us i think

his leadership cant be understated; plus when he got healthy he looked good!

 

[Bleedred]

From the little we know regarding Shero’s firing, he may not have even been fired particularly for performance reasons, but because he didn’t wanna be part of a decision making committee and wanted all or most of the control himself. That was only speculation from Friedman though.

 

[FooteBahl]

i dont hate the palat signing

or at least.. i wouldnt use the word hate!

its overpaid and too long but hes a big piece for us i think

his leadership cant be understated; plus when he got healthy he looked good!

Plus if he’s bought out in 3 years, the impact really isn’t that bad.

 

[Cheddabombs]

How do I fast forward through the monthly Shero discussion

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I am so exhausted from catching up on the last page. Someone please put me out of my misery.

Don't want to rehash Shero's GM tenure for the 100th time while we make a slow crawl to the NFL/NHL coming back?

 

[Saugus]

How do I fast forward through the monthly Shero discussion

Be careful what you wish for. I'm pretty sure that next up is the monthly Kovalchuk discussion.

 

[StevenToddIves]

The Smith pick was fine given the draft position. The key with those types of players is knowing when to cut bait with them. Fitz sold him off at the right time.

Anyways, re: Bahl. Fine deal.

The Ty Smith pick was not a *bad* pick by any means. At the time he was taken at #17 overall in 2018, he was generally considered not just the best defenseman, but the best player available.

As some will recall, the defenseman I had ranked highest at the time NJ drafted Smith was actually K'Andre Miller, but as the analytics set was very low on Miller a pick of Miller would have been roasted by many in the draft media, social media, and by myriad NJ fans.

Ultimately, I did not dislike the pick, as Smith seemed like the obvious answer on so many levels, and was also my 2nd-highest ranked remaining D at #17 after only Miller.

Ty Smith, in retrospect, personifies the curious and uncommon case of a young player whose development suddenly stalls completely with little explanation. We can call this the "Yakupov Effect" -- for, as many will recall, he was not an immediate bust, but rather after a Calder-type rookie campaign, he actually regressed as a player. This is a rare phenomenon, but not completely impossible, and as hard as we so-called "draft experts" might try, there's no definitive way to predict it.

Because, ultimately, Ty Smith looked great as a rookie. But as the next two years progressed, he seemed to play worse every month. By the time Fitzgerald dealt Smith to Pittsburgh, he was a liability every time he stepped out on the ice. I've studied it, I've watched the tape, and I simply cannot find an explanation for it.

You're absolutely correct that Fitzgerald cut the cord on Smith at the perfect time, while he still had value enough to acquire a very good defender like John Marino. You're also absolutely correct that it's tough to criticize the draft selection of Smith, because at the time it was an almost obvious call.

 

[TheNeutralZone]

It's dangerous to generalize fan reactions...

My reaction to the Palat contract, upon learning about it at 3 in the morning, was to audibly howl in pain.

Ty Smith... I recall Bob talking about his biggest strengths and questioning whether his offense would translate and I hated the pick immediately.

I believe I said something to the effect of, "If those are his strengths, how bad are his weaknesses?"

 

[MartyOwns]

Shero barely drafted any defensemen and his few trades for defense were underwhelming too. (Vats being the best.)

That’s why the Summer of Shero was bad. It did not feel good to me. Our roster defense was bad and prospect pool defense was bad and he traded an endless parade of 2nds.

I’ve asked this before. What do you think our future would have been like if we miraculously stumbled our way to the playoffs in 2019-20?

We’ve traded our 2020 2nd, 2020 3rd and 2021 2nd away already. How does Shero improve the team? By trading our 1sts? You think he would stop sacrificing the future at any point?

He never attempted to do proper rebuild, unless a lot of late picks and some trades for some players a few years from UFA are your idea of a rebuild.

He made some nice individual trades (Hall, Palmieri) and not so nice ones I understood (Muller). He did some nice work on the executive side. He should have drafted more, and no, extra 7th round picks don’t count.

This is what we got from losing in 2019-20 alone:
We got Bahl, Siegenthaler and Mercer from the Hall trade.
We got Meier with Mukhamadullin, who we got from the Coleman 2020 TDL deal.
We traded for Graves with the 2nd from the Greene 2020 TDL.
We drafted Dawes from a pick we got from the Vats 2020 TDL deal.
We drafted Vilén from a pick we got from Simmonds 2020 TDL deal.

The dude got fired. Do you think he shouldn’t have gotten fired? Do you wish he wasn’t fired? My answer those two questions is “no” and unless your answer to both of those questions is “yes” then what are you defending here? His honor? His likability?

Yeah, he got a tough assignment. Life’s not just not fair I guess.

We were 3rd in The Athletic Farm System but a lot of that was Jack Hughes. This was the list. (And the void at defense beyond Smith is a problem.)

1. Jack Hughes, C, USNTDP-USHL
Tier: Special NHL prospect
2. Ty Smith, D, Spokane-WHL
Tier: High-end/very good bubble
3. Jesper Boqvist, LW, Brynas-SHL
Tier: Very good/legit bubble
4. Michael McLeod, C, New Jersey-NHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
5. Daniil Misyul, D, Yaroslavl-KHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
6. Akira Schmid, G, Omaha-USHL
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
7. Aarne Talvitie, LW, Penn State-Big 10
Tier: Legit NHL prospect
8. Gilles Senn, G, Davos-NLA
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
9. Marian Studenic, RW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
10. Nathan Bastian, RW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
11. Reilly Walsh, D, Harvard-ECAC
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
12. Colton White, D, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
13. Graeme Clarke, RW, Ottawa-OHL
Tier: Legit/chance bubble
14. Brandon Gignac, LW, Binghamton-AHL
Tier: Has a chance
15. Michael Vukojevic, D, Kitchener-OHL
Tier: Has a chance
16. Fabian Zetterlund, RW, Farjestad-SHL
Tier: Has a chance
17. Mikhail Maltsev, C, SKA-KHL
Tier: Has a chance
18. Nikita Okhotyuk, D, Ottawa-OHL
Tier: Has a chance
19. Nikola Pasic, LW, Linkoping-J20 SuperElit
Tier: Has a chance
20. Tyce Thompson, RW, Providence-Hockey East
Tier: Has a chance
21. Xavier Bernard, D, Charlottetown-QMJHL
Tier: Has a chance
22. Matthew Hellickson, D, Notre Dame-Big 10
Tier: Has a chance
23. Patrick Moynihan, RW, USNTDP-USHL
Tier: Has a chance

Depth Players
Yegor Sharangovich, C, Binghamton-AHL (Age: 21)
Mitch Hoelscher, C, Ottawa-OHL (19)
Arseni Gritsyuk, RW, Ufa-MHL (18)
Case McCarthy, D, USNTDP-USHL (18)

Organizational Top 10 (23 and Under)​

1. Jack Hughes, C (18)
2. Nico Hischier, C (20)
3. Ty Smith, D (19)
4. Jesper Bratt, LW (21)
5. Pavel Zacha, C (22)
6. Jesper Boqvist, LW (20)
7. Mackenzie Blackwood, G (22)
8. Michael McLeod, C (21)
9. Daniil Misyul, D (18)
10. Akira Schmid, G (19)

maybe/definitely i’m just extra high right now but i have no idea what points you are making that i haven’t already. what i originally said was that shero’s non-moves should be lauded as often as his bad moves are demonized.

the points that i DID understand, i agree with. like, yeah he didn’t focus on the defense. he clearly sought to upgrade the offense first (i would assume because forwards are generally lower risk in terms of contracts). an idiot would say shero had no plan, a reasonable person might say they disagreed with his plan. that’s the difference. shero didn’t have the best prospect pool in hockey at the time of his firing? agreed. but what he had amassed considering what he started out with was kind of miraculous. and those mediocre players like maltsev, zetterberg, okhotyuk etc were used as trade pieces.

i don’t think he should’ve been fired, but i’m grateful he surrounded himself with castrons and fitzgeralds while he was there. we’re in really good shape now, in large part due to shero, so i don’t actually care that he was fired. i’m sure he’ll survive.

i’m not defending his honor lol, i’m saying the ignorant revisionist history that goes on like clockwork every summer is borderline delusional.

 

[Andre Palot]

Be careful what you wish for. I'm pretty sure that next up is the monthly Kovalchuk discussion.

I miss the days of monthly Parise discussion.

Actually no, no I don't.

 

[MasterofGrond]

only 4 years on Nico's contract

you know what that means, boys and girls

 

[Nubmer6]

It wasn`t about the pick overall, it was about "Smith was good, everybody were happy", I made example when not everybody were happy.

I was talking about the Mukhamadulin pick

 

[Maine Fan]

I think the Devils ride this out through training camp. So many teams overloaded on 3G on one-way deals that if you think Schmid needs more time, there is going to be an option on the waiver wire.

With Kallgren and Schmid both not needing waivers, you can always send them down, claim a guy like Nedelkjovic, and then ride that for the first couple of months to keep Schmid playing regularly in the AHL.

I thought of this the other day, but I wonder if Bernier gets an invite to training camp on a PTO. More than likely his career is over after missing a year and a half, but it won’t hurt anyone to do that. If he looks good, he can be a nice cushion between Vanecek and Schmid.

I like your thinking Zippy316. What you posted makes sense. I forgot about Bernier. We agree stay pat with the goaltenders.
Have A NICE ONE.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

only 4 years on Nico's contract

you know what that means, boys and girls

Jim arguing that Palat should get Nico's money instead of vice versa?

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

Shero made some good moves that helped snowball into where we are at today but Fitzgerald is the one who really reshaped the franchise. You will never see Fitzgerald make a trade with the Rangers like Shero did. Both GM's had different scenarios they stepped in to but I'm just glad we kept Fitzgerald. Other organizations were trying to get him a few years ago and I remember thinking this guy needs to be retained. No GM is perfect but Fitzgerald has done an excellent job. I'm honestly proud he is our GM right now.

 

[Hisch13r]

Marino and McLeod have negative value? Pathetic.

As I said earlier Marino's dragged down by his prior 2 mediocre Pittsburgh years. Dom had him at 6.7 last year.

only 4 years on Nico's contract

you know what that means, boys and girls

Well there was already that Sabres fan in the Hellebuyck thread saying we need to move him now to clear cap space and recoup assets traded for Meier

 

[Hisch13r]

Just even more excellent work from Fitz. Getting two years on that AAV for a guy who will play top-four minutes for the Devils is fantastic value.

I was hoping a longer-term Siegethaler-esque deal for Bahl to get him locked up, but this is still really good.

I doubt Bahl ends up playing top 4 minutes this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up 6th. Not going for the Siegs deal was the smart thing. Sure maybe Bahl breaks out and makes a long term deal worth it but that's a lot of risk for a guy with not all that great of a track record. He grew a lot and became a good bottom pair D but Siegs had standout numbers with the Caps and then was arguably the best defensive D in the league in 21-22. There was so much more certainty with Siegs than there is with Bahl.