Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part III

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I get how frustrating this has all been, but I think we've all see the way this season has gone that we weren't going to just magically end up driving on a smoothly paved road the rest of the way. This defense is still learning on the fly, and we're still trotting out Vitek who instills zero confidence in probably everyone out on the ice right now. I don't think there's a solution that just makes sense out of the blue, and I get giving him the start last night after he made lots of good saves against the Avalanche, but he is unfortunately prone to giving up excruciating goals that will deflate the psyche of even the best players in front of him.

The season isn't over yet, though I know lots of people like to go with that notion every time we lose a game. There are things that can be adjusted from a lineup perspective, and the powerplay will get going again eventually now that the forward group is back at full strength. But time is getting short. Regardless of how this season ends, while it's disappointing and frustrating, there's been so much that has gone wrong throughout these last few months that it's hard to not just shrug. If this is our Vegas season of missing the playoffs to come back stronger, so be it.

I'll be here on the wagon until it ends, we'll see how many others will be with me.

I mean I'll watch the games but I don't expect much out of them. It's something new every night with them this year.

 

[Clam Jensen]

I have no expectations until there’s a coaching and goalie change and Dougie is back. If you can get something nice for TT at the deadline, go for it. Otherwise I have full confidence this team will be a non wild card playoff team next season.

 

[Guttersniped]

Ya, I don't get that. This team's fixes are relatively straight forward, there was a point in time where we legit thinking ourselves into Zacha/McLeod being 1/2C's of the future.....

Even after years and years of losing we were still talking about our top pair Smith/Severson back up by… don’t ask.

The defense is a mess right now. Those kids make glaring mistakes time to time, we’re still building back there plus the injuries plus some down years (plus our wonky defensive system).

Fitz has work to do, most obviously at goal, but a bunch of teams are struggling to fix that unfortunately.

Yesterday was frustrating for me too, I spent the 1st period thinking I was watching a team that was going on a bit of a run and then dumb shit happened. I’m tired of the dumb shit too.

 

[forceten]

Yes, we have too many young inexperienced players on defense - Hatakka, Nemec, Hughes, Bahl in that order of experience - although I'd argue other than Bahl (who I am starting to sour on) they're pretty darn talented players. When Siegenthaler and Hamilton come back it's going to be touch to pick who goes out (Hatakka and Bahl, but Bahl first, I think, which is a shame).

We will always be rotating in young defense because we have so many of them. Misyul, Casey, Vilen, one of the KHL Krew (Barabosha, Karopovich, Orlov), whatever.

But I'm not convinced that we're really allowing more danger chances than other teams... we jsut aren't getting saves.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Even after years and years of losing we were still talking about our top pair Smith/Severson back up by… don’t ask.

The defense is a mess right now. Those kids make glaring mistakes time to time, we’re still building back there plus the injuries plus some down years (plus our wonky defensive system).

Fitz has work to do, most obviously at goal, but a bunch of teams are struggling to fix that unfortunately.

Yesterday was frustrating for me too, I spent the 1st period thinking I was watching a team that was going on a bit of a run and then dumb shit happened. I’m tired of the dumb shit too.

I rather them doing it in a down year so to say then them doing it when we're legit a very good team and have to incorporate them. They've been pretty good for the majority of the year especially Nemec so I'm not totally worried about them. And there's maybe 3-4 good goalies in the whole league so I'm not sure why we're screaming to the heavens like we're the only team with the issue like you said, would help if the coach peeled back the uptempo game most nights to play defensive.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Yes, we have too many young inexperienced players on defense - Hatakka, Nemec, Hughes, Bahl in that order of experience - although I'd argue other than Bahl (who I am starting to sour on) they're pretty darn talented players. When Siegenthaler and Hamilton come back it's going to be touch to pick who goes out (Hatakka and Bahl, but Bahl first, I think, which is a shame).

We will always be rotating in young defense because we have so many of them. Misyul, Casey, Vilen, one of the KHL Krew (Barabosha, Karopovich, Orlov), whatever.

But I'm not convinced that we're really allowing more danger chances than other teams... we jsut aren't getting saves.

They bleed but when it spirals for them it's really bad or when Vanecek gives up a soft goal (often), they just tuck their tails between their heads

 

[Call Me Al]

Yes, we have too many young inexperienced players on defense - Hatakka, Nemec, Hughes, Bahl in that order of experience - although I'd argue other than Bahl (who I am starting to sour on) they're pretty darn talented players. When Siegenthaler and Hamilton come back it's going to be touch to pick who goes out (Hatakka and Bahl, but Bahl first, I think, which is a shame).

We will always be rotating in young defense because we have so many of them. Misyul, Casey, Vilen, one of the KHL Krew (Barabosha, Karopovich, Orlov), whatever.

But I'm not convinced that we're really allowing more danger chances than other teams... we jsut aren't getting saves.

the problem to me isn’t just that it’s so many rookies in d, but it’s that we play a system that requires them to go against their instincts and so much of what they’re taught. it’s that we have 2 guys behind the net and need timo meier to read the play and cover the back door instead of the point on what should be simple coverage but somehow makes the other team look like a bunch of gretzky’s.

i’m sure our rookie d men would look better if it was as easy as one guy goes behind and in the corners and the other covers the front of the net but we’re stuck with this

 

[forceten]

They bleed but when it spirals for them it's really bad or when Vanecek gives up a soft goal (often), they just tuck their tails between their heads

They do - although Lindy Ruff is correct when he says its human nature. Having played and when you have a crap goalie behind you it's "here we go again". You feel like you're winning but the score board says you're losing. And then you start to do stupid but understandable things - cheating, pinching, trying to do abnormal things to cover for your crap goalie and THEN he lets up another stinker and it's like - what's the point. Eventually it wears off and you get going again - you see this all the time, you saw it last night! But it's too little too late, and often even THAT resurgence is nipped by yet another bad goal. Which was last night.

Down 3-1, 4:00 penalty, we score a SHG and almost score a second (Lazar, so close!) and what happens? 4th goal against. Down 4-2 we somehow muster up the enthusiasm and score a goal to make it 4-3, but ran out of time, and our ENG play which would see us lose even in a beer league lets up a goal.

 

[Guttersniped]

I rather them doing it in a down year so to say then them doing it when we're legit a very good team and have to incorporate them. They've been pretty good for the majority of the year especially Nemec so I'm not totally worried about them. And there's maybe 3-4 good goalies in the whole league so I'm not sure why we're screaming to the heavens like we're the only team with the issue like you said, would help if the coach peeled back the uptempo game most nights to play defensive.

To me the second goal was all on our system. All our f***ing players were in the corner around the puck with Meier cheating up the ice waiting to get passed the puck.

Backlund’s a smart player, he camped out in that empty space around the net. (I was at the game so I missed Sal’s breakdown of that monstrosity.)

I thought we dominated in the period so to have it end 1-1 due to that same shit…

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

They do - although Lindy Ruff is correct when he says its human nature. Having played and when you have a crap goalie behind you it's "here we go again". You feel like you're winning but the score board says you're losing. And then you start to do stupid but understandable things - cheating, pinching, trying to do abnormal things to cover for your crap goalie and THEN he lets up another stinker and it's like - what's the point. Eventually it wears off and you get going again - you see this all the time, you saw it last night! But it's too little too late, and often even THAT resurgence is nipped by yet another bad goal. Which was last night.

Down 3-1, 4:00 penalty, we score a SHG and almost score a second (Lazar, so close!) and what happens? 4th goal against. Down 4-2 we somehow muster up the enthusiasm and score a goal to make it 4-3, but ran out of time, and our ENG play which would see us lose even in a beer league lets up a goal.

I'll give you the reverse of it with playing goal for as long as I did, that's definitely on Vitek. You always want to make a save or two to make up for it. I get the lull from the skaters but eventually you have to just show up consistently even if you know the goalie behind you is bad. Why isn't Lindy fine tuning his system where guys back check a bit harder so these chances aren't even happening? I get it's a tough ask since Vanecek is Swiss cheese at this point but you can easily make these guys play a way tighter game. We saw it with years of Marty/Schenider when they gave up a REALLY BAD goal, they'd make 4-5 saves to make up for it and even Marty's case where his puck handling where he wanted to help the skaters get the goal back by starting a quick break out.

To me the second goal was all on our system. All our f***ing players were in the corner around the puck with Meier cheating up the ice waiting to get passed the puck.

Backlund’s a smart player, he camped out in that empty space around the net. (I was at the game so I missed Sal’s breakdown of that monstrosity.)

I thought we dominated in the period so to have it end 1-1 due to that same shit…

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I'd definitely still put that one on Vitek tbh, he was off his post and the f***ing dreaded RVH that I consistently bitch about.....

 

[TheUnseenHand]

They bleed but when it spirals for them it's really bad or when Vanecek gives up a soft goal (often), they just tuck their tails between their heads

You would hope the coach could do something about that. Like maybe a timeout or something....

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

You would hope the coach could do something about that. Like maybe a timeout or something....

Vanecek blows but Lindy is the #1 issue with this team

 

[Omar Little]

Well see the issue there is that Meier is on the 3rd line. Now I really hate his contract and the fact that we are stuck with him but I wonder how bad his injury from this season has weakened his game. I think finding a way to get Meier's game right is more important than brining in another free agent we will have to commit too much money too.

These guys need to win alot of the remaining games to make the playoffs. I think this season will be an indicator for who the real leaders on this team are over the course of the next 10 games or so.

I agree but the more fundamental point is team identity wise a speedster in Stephenson who can put up 50+ (and also play defensively/physically) is a more valuable player to us than a 65+ point scorer in Toffoli who does none of those things. I would expect their contracts to be somewhat similar (in the low 5’s per annum)

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I agree but the more fundamental point is team identity wise a speedster in Stephenson who can put up 50+ (and also play defensively/physically) is a more valuable player to us than a 65+ point scorer in Toffoli who does none of those things. I would expect their contracts to be somewhat similar (in the low 5’s per annum)

100% on board with this. Do not want Toff. I'd rather Tatar.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Love that Chandler Stephenson suggestion, he's also played 1/2C for a cup contender the past 5 years which we might need with how often Jack gets banged up at this point which is a needed discussion as uncomfortable as it is to have

 

[Billdo]

I really don’t see any downside to just running with Schmid and Daws at this point. At worst, they’ll be just as bad as VV. But the upside is very much there. VV is beyond cooked. Waive him - no one will claim him

I said this a month ago. I'm here for it. I'm also here for waiving Vanecek for quite literally anyone else besides absolute shit like Hammond, Gillies, etc.

 

[Call Me Al]

I agree but the more fundamental point is team identity wise a speedster in Stephenson who can put up 50+ (and also play defensively/physically) is a more valuable player to us than a 65+ point scorer in Toffoli who does none of those things. I would expect their contracts to be somewhat similar (in the low 5’s per annum)

toffoli puts up points but he doesn’t fit the team identity.

last years team was one of the fastest teams i’ve ever seen. teams couldn’t keep up with us when they were rolling and it’s how we were able to turn it on and climb back into games seemingly at will.

toffolis not the only reason why there’s a step back but it’s noticeable that he’s not fast enough on the forecheck or d zone or breakouts to make the team better when he’s not shooting the puck

 

[Omar Little]

I also think Mercer should be bridged for 3 years at like $4m. This year has raise enough doubts about his long term potential and the expiry of a bridge should be lined up with Palat's contract expiring.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

toffoli puts up points but he doesn’t fit the team identity.

last years team was one of the fastest teams i’ve ever seen. teams couldn’t keep up with us when they were rolling and it’s how we were able to turn it on and climb back into games seemingly at will.

toffolis not the only reason why there’s a step back but it’s noticeable that he’s not fast enough on the forecheck or d zone or breakouts to make the team better when he’s not shooting the puck

He's literally useless without Jack. Given Jack's injury history, that is a problem.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I also think Mercer should be bridged for 3 years at like $4m. This year has raise enough doubts about his long term potential and the expiry of a bridge should be lined up with Palat's contract expiring.

I'd go long term with him, I don't think he's gonna be as bad as he is this year.

He's literally useless without Jack. Given Jack's injury history, that is a problem.

His foot speed was always an issue even for people who were love with this trade day 1.

 

[TheUnseenHand]

I'd go long term with him, I don't think he's gonna be as bad as he is this year.



His foot speed was always an issue even for people who were love with this trade day 1.

I remember being called out by a couple particular posters for questioning Toffs fit on this team...

 

[Omar Little]

I'd go long term with him, I don't think he's gonna be as bad as he is this year.



His foot speed was always an issue even for people who were love with this trade day 1.

I'd rather save the $1.5m - $2m difference for a long term deal on team needs in the 2-3 years

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I'd rather save the $1.5m - $2m difference for a long term deal on team needs in the 2-3 years

I mean fair, just a personal preference going long term with guys I know who are good.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I remember being called out by a couple particular posters for questioning Toffs fit on this team...

It was always a trade they made because of how bad they got dumpstered by Carolina. They missed a Toffoli type in that series and even in the NYR series with guys like Nico/Bratt/Timo going goalless for the series. He was always a playoff add and we assumed we'd walk into them this year.

 

[Call Me Al]

hopefully we can flip him for a first that we can flip to get a goalie for next season, that’s probably the best way he’ll help us make the playoffs