Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - 2023-24 season part II

[Clam Jensen]

Thought it was a bad dream. Its not. SMH

Whelp, all we can hope for is a few things:

1) this galvanizes the team
2) that poor woman gets justice for what happened to her
3) by some miracle Mikey wasn’t involved and he’s cleared of wrongdoing (pipe dream, I know)

 

[Billdo]

Whelp, all we can hope for is a few things:

1) this galvanizes the team
2) that poor woman gets justice for what happened to her
3) by some miracle Mikey wasn’t involved and he’s cleared of wrongdoing (pipe dream, I know)

With respect to number three the absolute best case scenario for him and the team is he knew about it, didn't participate, but didn't say anything. That's obviously still a horrible action/inaction.

 

[Clam Jensen]

With respect to number three the absolute best case scenario for him and the team is he knew about it, didn't participate, but didn't say anything. That's obviously still a horrible action/inaction.

Yup, definite best case but absolutely inexcusable. What a mess. I try to put myself in their shoes when I was an 18 year old jerkoff, and I honestly don’t know what I would do if I knew it happened but wasn’t involved. You have to think hockey Canada told them to keep quiet and they feared speaking out with ruin their careers (ironic, I know). Just sad all around.

 

[glenwo2]

Yup, definite best case but absolutely inexcusable. What a mess. I try to put myself in their shoes when I was an 18 year old jerkoff, and I honestly don’t know what I would do if I knew it happened but wasn’t involved. You have to think hockey Canada told them to keep quiet and they feared speaking out with ruin their careers (ironic, I know). Just sad all around.

I have to wonder if this was also the case (see bolded).

 

[Clam Jensen]

I have to wonder if this was also the case (see bolded).

100%. Just knowing how organizations operate, you have to believe the higher ups were encouraging them to hush.

 

[jkrdevil]

I must commend our board for a very mature and civil discussion. This place is a breath of fresh air compared to other boards and the horrific comments I have seen on social media. We are a rowdy and different kind of bunch on here with our inside jokes and memes and colorful characters (and even imaginary characters, totally not looking at you @Bleedred) . But when it comes to serious matters, the majority of people on here are good folk. There are differing perspectives on how things were handled but everyone here understands the severity of the situation and has treated it with respect.

It’s been a really difficult season but we will push through. Better days are ahead.

I imagine most of this board is older and thus you get a more nuanced discussion because of more life experiences.

I haven’t read the main board thread in this. I did read through a recent post on the Perry stuff and it’s became very obvious some of the posters are probably children (more realistically late teens) with a very simplistic view of things.

 

[Billdo]

I have to wonder if this was also the case (see bolded).

I'd think it was. The money they set aside for this makes me strongly believe they knew these things were happening.

 

[jkrdevil]

I have to wonder if this was also the case (see bolded).

I think that is part of the lawsuit against Hockey Canada.

They were 20-year old jerkoffs, but they also knew what they did in the moment was wrong given what has come out about their actions in the immediate aftermath.

 

[theoptimist]

Whelp, all we can hope for is a few things:

1) this galvanizes the team
2) that poor woman gets justice for what happened to her
3) by some miracle Mikey wasn’t involved and he’s cleared of wrongdoing (pipe dream, I know)

I want 2 and 3 badly.

 

[theoptimist]

I think that is part of the lawsuit against Hockey Canada.

They were 20-year old jerkoffs, but they also knew what they did in the moment was wrong given what has come out about their actions in the immediate aftermath.

There are so many layers. Who from HC told Player 1 about the investigation? Who the heck is Player 2 (the roommate who forced himself on the woman)? Why are there two videos of the girl (both a few seconds long) implying consent? Who the f*** is the older gentlemen named M.M.? (I thought it was Manny Malhotra….lol).

 

[StevensRocks]

Your exact quote: "You keep saying there’s significant risk but no there isn’t"

I interpret that as you saying it is no risk.

You can paint me into a corner as being the only one with this view and I will stand there.

I feel this was not handled by our gm/team well for all the reasons I outlined in the many posts before over the last number of pages. It's a shame the team decided to go that way and sign not 1 but 2 of these guys to begin with.

I'm done being tagged. It's ridiculous that I have to go to lengths to even defend my view over the terrible handling of this situation.

I don’t like cheering for scumbags.

And I’m a season ticket holder…

 

[HoliksGhost]

I honestly can't wait for next season. I'm beyond doomer status. I just can't take any more of this season. It's just too much to process. All the things are happening. All the bad things.

Agreed. It’s the Hockey Gods revenge for last years incredible season

 

[Whaddagoal]

"Significant" is the key word there.

Look, you can have your opinion. That doesn't make it reasonable.

You're not alone, but you are in the minority. One thing I keep seeing repeated is that Fitz must have known more about what was going to happen. I'm curious...what specific knowledge do you think the NHL GM's had that was not made public, and why do you think they would have this knowledge? Criminal investigations are typically confidential, do we have credible reason to believe someone with knowledge of it was leaking information to NHL execs? Is there any reporting or evidence to suggest Hockey Canada conducted any kind of credible investigation, and that the results of those were getting leaked to NHL execs?

You guys make these assumptions and then get defensive when it's called out as speculation, as if it's a given that Fitz had information that would reasonably change the calculus of his decisions. It's not.

Specific knowledge? Perhaps that he and other GMs knew the likely strong list of suspects in this case...formenton was already "blacklisted' for awhile. Ottawa was safe enough to never play this game and never signed him. They did right in this situation.

Doesn't seem unreasonable to think GMs know something more.

You are asking me to provide me to provide proof about my view when you know I don't have full proof. It's conjecture and speculation the same way you are speculating Fitz has no special insight. You don't know either. My view is as reasonable as your view based on what we know but I am giving credence that the GMs and org had an insight to what was going on last 1.5 years, while you give weight that no info leaks around. I feel that is unlikely. Word spreads around.

Fitz signed McLeod to short deal in off season. Signed a bunch of bottom 6 guys (Lazar, Nosek - good faceoff 4th liner, Tierney). He knew what he was doing in that McLeod maybe out. We were all speculating that a season ago or in the off-season. I just wish he put the organization above this and didn't play to give McLeod and foote some deference.

Ownership and Fitz rushed out a press conference two days ago to pat himself on the back on the heels that players were taking leaves (Carter hart, dube). Seems like they knew things coming.

And just a small fan level reason why this sucks.

Some fans have to explain to their kids why two players are not on the team. You cant tell a 10 year old fan who is big on the team the full reason why McLeod is out. What about a 13 year old?. It's not like she didn't see cal Foote on tv either.

I have 3 girls and they are all fans of this team. I'm a season ticket holder and pissed that this gm put up this team in a situation like this.

It is a problem with how the team handled the situation. You can belittle my view but it isn't unreasonable to put some blame with Fitz handling it last 2 years.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Jake Virtanen ring any bells? He's another NHLer accused in a sexual assault case.

Upon learning of the accusation Benning placed him on leave pending the results of the investigation on 5/1/2021.

Then on July 25, 2021 he was placed on unconditional waivers for the purpose of buying out his contract.

Edmonton invited him to camp 21-22, but did not sign him. No other NHL team showed any interest and he ended up signing with Spartak Moscow of the KHL. Spartak released him for breach of contract.

He was found innocent in a jury trial in July of 2022. Still no offers from any NHL team.

You cannot be found innocent at trial. You get found not guilty, which is not the same thing as innocent. Not guilty means that the jury had a reasonable doubt, that's it. They may still think the defendant did it, but it just can't be proven to legal standards.

In Virtanen's case, he said the encounter was consensual and the woman said it was not. There were no witnesses and no physical evidence, it was only his word against hers. Which leads to reasonable doubt as to whose story is true, and therefore the jury had no ability to find him guilty.

This is a big part of the reason that crimes like this rarely get prosecuted, sex cases are notoriously difficult to win without a smoking gun piece of physical evidence. Here's a Canadian lawyer talking about the Virtanen case:

Following closing arguments Monday, the judge instructed the jury that any reasonable doubt in Crown’s case against Virtanen would require an acquittal.

Kyla Lee, a Vancouver-based criminal lawyer who was not involved in the case, says that instruction is common in criminal trials and is an especially high bar to clear in sexual assault cases.

“You don’t have to believe what somebody says in order to have reasonable doubt,” she told Global News.

“These cases (sexual assault trials) are often ‘he said, she said’ cases. But really, it’s a case about credibility … and the only time somebody can be convicted is when there’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt.”

Lee said that burden of proof can be difficult for people outside the legal system to fully understand, and can keep alleged victims from coming forward.

Advocate says Jake Virtanen acquittal shows high bar for justice in sex assault cases | Globalnews.ca

Because sexual assault trials often hinge on conflicting versions of events, the burden for proof beyond a reasonable doubt is hard to clear, lawyers say.

globalnews.ca

We can never legally prove that a defendant is innocent, we can only fail to prove that he's guilty. And the standard of proof for getting a conviction is incredibly high. This is not a technicality, it is quite literally the whole point of the criminal justice system. So, to say that Virtanen was proven innocent is just simply false.

 

[Zippy316]

I know it’s probably been discussed, but I don’t understand why Fitz signed Cal Foote with McLeod already on the roster.

Given how many NHL alumni are on that team, I firmly believe that most in the NHL have an idea of what occurred or at least who was involved. Especially someone like Fitzgerald who already had McLeod on his team.

Unless Fitzgerald was convinced by whomever that Cal wasn’t involved, why wouldn’t you steer clear of any other player who is vaguely rumored to be involved when you already had McLeod on the roster.

The timing of the Fitzgerald extension leads me to believe he must’ve known and relayed to ownership as well to make sure there would be no internal blowback. Maybe it was done to appease the Foote family with Nolan in the organization? I don’t know but all in all, it’s just a bad look.

 

[SETHROLLINS]

Ben Johnson (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember this case but the timeline actually surprised me.

Ben was still playing in the minors for Albany after he had been charged.

Lou terminated his contract the day he was found guilty.

 

[forceten]

The other reason Vancouver acted how virtuously they did with Virtanen is that he was terrible. 4th overall pick bust, had only 5 goals, no assists in 38 games that last season with them, and he's shown he's terrible by his relatively poor performances for that level of draft pick and prospect in European leagues. The KHL is a serious league, but the others he should be tearing up. Let's not forget that teams will do what's best for teams, if he was point a game they likely wouldn't have done that.

 

[Whaddagoal]

I don’t like cheering for scumbags.

And I’m a season ticket holder…

Yes, that too.

 

[Zippy316]

Ben Johnson (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember this case but the timeline actually surprised me.

Ben was still playing in the minors for Albany after he had been charged.

Lou terminated his contract the day he was found guilty.

It must be mentioned that since this time (and following the Kyle Beach & Chicago scandal), Bettman seems to be extremely proactive and trying to set a zero tolerance standard with criminal cases involving any NHL staff. Especially anything that’s incredibly damaging media-wise like SA or bullying.

He’s making Quenneville/Bowman clear a high bar to be allowed back into the league. He’s doing the same for Mitchell Miller and Logan Mailloux, if I recall his name correctly. I don’t think he’s going to do any different for the 2018 Hockey Canada team.

 

[JrFischer54]

you look back at all the times you cheer for mike this year last year when we all knew what happened but we didn't know who was involved why? because the 5 that are being charged didn't come forward and say they were the ones being investigated the other members of the team didn't come out and say they were innocent so we could narrow down the ones that were outed yesterday. everyone on that roster should be held accountable i'm not talking legally for those not in the room but their role in keeping quiet enabled those 5 players to make money they shouldn't have play when they shouldn't have and now that game 7 win is a little tainted. should've never been in that position


i would have more "respect" and i use that very loose for those 5 players if they came out and made a statement we were in the room we are the ones being investigated but it was all consensual we didn't do anything wrong. to hide so you could play smh thats just double wrong they should've voluntarily stepped away

 

[tailfins]

It must be mentioned that since this time (and following the Kyle Beach & Chicago scandal), Bettman seems to be extremely proactive and trying to set a zero tolerance standard with criminal cases involving any NHL staff. Especially anything that’s incredibly damaging media-wise like SA or bullying.

He’s making Quenneville/Bowman clear a high bar to be allowed back into the league. He’s doing the same for Mitchell Miller and Logan Mailloux, if I recall his name correctly. I don’t think he’s going to do any different for the 2018 Hockey Canada team.

I'm not so sure. Mailloux was approved to play in the NHL in August by Bettman. He's in Laval for development, not disciplinary, reasons. And, of course, there were no repercussions for the Canadiens drafting him.

 

[JrFischer54]

Your exact quote: "You keep saying there’s significant risk but no there isn’t"

I interpret that as you saying it is no risk.

You can paint me into a corner as being the only one with this view and I will stand there.

I feel this was not handled by our gm/team well for all the reasons I outlined in the many posts before over the last number of pages. It's a shame the team decided to go that way and sign not 1 but 2 of these guys to begin with.

I'm done being tagged. It's ridiculous that I have to go to lengths to even defend my view over the terrible handling of this situation.

fitz 100% shouldn't have brought him back he had a clear out when the contract ran out. i'm sure he knew more then we knew about the situation. even if he didn't he still would've known enough thats why he only gave him a 1 year deal. he took a gamble on this story coming out after the season ends and it backfired he should apologize for it. not only does he put the fans in a awkward emotional place he left the team in mid season incredibly weakened.

 

[njdevil26]

I think that is part of the lawsuit against Hockey Canada.

They were 20-year old jerkoffs, but they also knew what they did in the moment was wrong given what has come out about their actions in the immediate aftermath.

Yeah if you have to obtain a video deposition from a woman before and after you (and others) have sex with her... no matter what she says on the video you've done something wrong.

 

[Zippy316]

I'm not so sure. Mailloux was approved to play in the NHL in August by Bettman. He's in Laval for development, not disciplinary, reasons. And, of course, there were no repercussions for the Canadiens drafting him.

He wasn’t allowed to play until Bettman gave the ok though. That doesn’t happen for any other players.

Also his case was objectively not as bad as some of the others, but still just very scummy.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]