Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part II

[Bcap88]

They could all be busts easily as well. People tend to overrate prospects/picks. I'd much rather move that pick for a young proven forward that can play in the top 6 next season.

Problem is no one is really trading those type of forwards at the moment

 

[Billdo]

They could all be busts easily as well. People tend to overrate prospects/picks. I'd much rather move that pick for a young proven forward that can play in the top 6 next season.

Who is giving that up for the 10th pick though? Nobody moves young top 6 forwards for draft picks. You'd hope whoever you take at 10 turns out to be as good as that "proven forward that can play in the top 6" and that's statistically unlikely.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Please stop. This is conjecture at best, and weird fan-fiction at worst. You have absolutely no idea if this call is Marty's (at all, let alone with complete autonomy). You have absolutely no idea if Rogalski will be the goalie coach next year.

The Washington Post is reporting everyone back except we add Colliton.

https://wapo.st/45n5Ce3

I actually like this and think it’s both good for morale and makes sense. Let’s have the maximum of continuity with a major change at the top.

I am reminded of the army in the Second World War where certain general officers were known for taking their own staff officers everywhere with them. (Douglas MacArthur). Yet two of the most brilliant commanders absolutely went against this trend. Chester Nimitz, taking over at Pearl Harbor shortly after the disaster surprised everyone by showing faith in his predecessors staff. It was one of the first things done to restore confidence and self confidence and is thought to have been a supremely important move. Likewise, Sir William Slim upon taking control of Burma Corps during its desperate retreat from Rangoon and over the foothills back to India did the same thing, with the same results.

Personal loyalty counts for a lot in hockey too. There are relationships in place here between players and coaches. I trust Keefe to coach the coaches.

 

[ZYXWVUT]

I’m not one to typically float rumors but I’ve heard this interesting proposal.

Markstrom (50% retained), 28OA, 2nd round pick for 10OA.

The additional second round pick on top of 28 does kinda at least get me thinking about it. Would have to be Calgary’s own (not Dallas). And having him at $3 million would open up a ton of flexibility over the next two seasons for other areas. But generally speaking just Don’t know if I can come around to 10 overall in any goalie deal

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

if we give up #10 in any capacity with only getting Markstrom and a late 1st/2nd back, I think that is a complete and utter failure on Fitz's part. I still don't see that happening.

 

[Bleedred]

Please stop. This is conjecture at best, and weird fan-fiction at worst. You have absolutely no idea if this call is Marty's (at all, let alone with complete autonomy). You have absolutely no idea if Rogalski will be the goalie coach next year.

I mean, coaches have been fired or stepped down later in the offseason. Patrick Roy abruptly left in late August after abruptly losing a power struggle. That was like 3 weeks before camp.

So it's not a guarantee, but it seems odds are very heavy that Rogalski WILL be the goalie coach next year. The team has been done playing for just about 2 months now. I think they would have fired him by now if he's not going to be the goalie coach next year.

Unless there's some sort of schism between him and management or him and Keefe that develops later on in the summer.

Or if by some strange set of circumstances some other goalie coach they didn't know was going to available or interested in being a goalie coach again gets hired by us.

 

[HoliksGhost]

I’ll say one thing - it’s going to be incredibly deflating if the kids play another year without a proper goalie in net.

 

[megajake]

So it’s either give up the 10th overall pick for marginal Markstrom or bust? There are definite grounds in-between, including winning your offer on Markstrom for less than the 10th.

I don't know if we have the realistic assets to beat out the other teams that need a goalie without any type of first this year in play.

Problem is no one is really trading those type of forwards at the moment

Who is giving that up for the 10th pick though? Nobody moves young top 6 forwards for draft picks. You'd hope whoever you take at 10 turns out to be as good as that "proven forward that can play in the top 6" and that's statistically unlikely.

I am hoping every day we can add a lot more on to getting Brady Tkachuk

 

[Nocashstyle]

I know some disagree, but 10th for a trade involving Ullmark or Saros is at least palatable. Anything involving the 10th for a Markstrom centered deal reeks of desperation. I’d much rather resign Khakonen and pray one of him, Allen, Schmid, or Daws finds consistency.

 

[megajake]

I know some disagree, but 10th for a trade involving Ullmark or Saros is at least palatable. Anything involving the 10th for a Markstrom centered deal reeks of desperation. I’d much rather resign Khakonen and pray one of him, Allen, Schmid, or Daws finds consistency.

My worry is Ulmark is a product of Boston's elite defense and Saros is going to get paid huge when he relies on athleticism more then anyone else and that decline could be super rough.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Rogalski inexplicably staying on the staff.

Might as well not even waste assets on getting a goaltender

 

[NjDevsRR]

#FireColliton

 

[BurntToast]

I know some disagree, but 10th for a trade involving Ullmark or Saros is at least palatable. Anything involving the 10th for a Markstrom centered deal reeks of desperation. I’d much rather resign Khakonen and pray one of him, Allen, Schmid, or Daws finds consistency.

Khakonen numbers are so bad outside the couple games he played in NJ. My post which lost everyone two pages back, was about exactly this. There are many accounts of goalies playing well for short bursts, only to fall apart next year.

I also don’t want to run Allen into the ground.

 

[Nubmer6]

Khakonen numbers are so bad outside the couple games he played in NJ. My post which lost everyone two pages back, was about exactly this. There are many accounts of goalies playing well for short bursts, only to fall apart next year.

I also don’t want to run Allen into the ground.

I mean, did he even significantly outplay Blackwood in SJ?

 

[tailfins]

Khakonen numbers are so bad outside the couple games he played in NJ. My post which lost everyone two pages back, was about exactly this. There are many accounts of goalies playing well for short bursts, only to fall apart next year.

I also don’t want to run Allen into the ground.

Kahkonen was find outside of the past two years in SJ. Even his first year in SJ was fine.

 

[Goptor]

The Washington Post is reporting everyone back except we add Colliton.

https://wapo.st/45n5Ce3

I actually like this and think it’s both good for morale and makes sense. Let’s have the maximum of continuity with a major change at the top.

I am reminded of the army in the Second World War where certain general officers were known for taking their own staff officers everywhere with them. (Douglas MacArthur). Yet two of the most brilliant commanders absolutely went against this trend. Chester Nimitz, taking over at Pearl Harbor shortly after the disaster surprised everyone by showing faith in his predecessors staff. It was one of the first things done to restore confidence and self confidence and is thought to have been a supremely important move. Likewise, Sir William Slim upon taking control of Burma Corps during its desperate retreat from Rangoon and over the foothills back to India did the same thing, with the same results.

Personal loyalty counts for a lot in hockey too. There are relationships in place here between players and coaches. I trust Keefe to coach the coaches.

Except assistant coach Green won't be back. Thats a big omission.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Khakonen numbers are so bad outside the couple games he played in NJ. My post which lost everyone two pages back, was about exactly this. There are many accounts of goalies playing well for short bursts, only to fall apart next year.

I also don’t want to run Allen into the ground.

it’s not like he doesn’t have a track record. His first few years in the league he posted very solid numbers. If the alternative is 10th in a deal for a goalie turning 35 in the middle of the season, I’ll just hope Khakonen finds consistency.

 

[Alex NJD]

Catching up on the last 20 pages of this thread was definitely a test for my sanity.

I think if #10 does moved it would be for someone who hasn't really been discussed / someone we don't know is available at the moment.

 

[BurntToast]

I mean, did he even significantly outplay Blackwood in SJ?

Vitek was also significantly better than Blackwood.

I have to think the Devils see Allen as a 1B. Kahkonen numbers are great under 25 games played and getting favorable match-ups in Minny.

 

[Killing Joke]

My worry is Ulmark is a product of Boston's elite defense and Saros is going to get paid huge when he relies on athleticism more then anyone else and that decline could be super rough.

Ullmark is good regardless of Boston. He was good in Buffalo as well.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

☹ ...Captain, how are we to know what reasonable value he can provide if he's never played a game here? I'm asking for clarity on your statement "reasonable value." Some might argue there is more value in a known risk (Markstrom) than an unknown risk (#10 overall pick).

I like Markstrom by the way

I just had a whole long post and my page refreshed and deleted it which is very annoying.

But I’m talking about the reasonable value we can expect. Basically how you would look at any trade. What are the possible outcomes and how likely are they. It’s not that likely he’ll be our messiah in net because he’s just not that good. He could be solid and there’s also a chance he sucks for us. He’s a good but not great goalie who’s had some down seasons, some injuries and is pretty old now and close to retirement.

Either way it’ll be a short-term relationship and it’s not worth giving up the 10th overall pick and potentially an impactful player for the next decade plus for a maybe solution in goal for the next 2 years.
Obviously no guarantee the pick turns out but it isn’t any less likely that Markstrom doesn’t solve our goaltending, and then is gone in two years.

 

[Goptor]

The value in a top 10 pick is with the cap savings from the ELC. Just look at NFL at how they value draft picks because of the cheaper contracts. Star NFL players get traded for 3rd and 4th round picks.

Every other league does salary based on the draft pick except the NHL, where all the players are limited to near minimum salary.

The top picks are incredibly valuable. Thats why they never get traded.

I saw someone mention Askarov and why he's still just as valuable as when he was picked #11. He's less valuable because he only has 1 more year left on his ELC. The Devils should be bringing in the absolute best goalies for that pick.

 

[Nubmer6]

The value in a top 10 pick is with the cap savings from the ELC. Just look at NFL at how they value draft picks because of the cheaper contracts. Star NFL players get traded for 3rd and 4th round picks.

Every other league does salary based on the draft pick except the NHL, where all the players are limited to near minimum salary.

The top picks are incredibly valuable. Thats why they never get traded.

I saw someone mention Askarov and why he's still just as valuable as when he was picked #11. He's less valuable because he only has 1 more year left on his ELC. The Devils should be bringing in the absolute best goalies for that pick.

I agree, except when it comes to goalies. Of course there's always exceptions, but I they generally don't hit their stride till they're older, so they're typically out of their ELCs by the time they become anything of use, plus you have a clearer picture of how good they're going to be.

 

[Goptor]

I agree, except when it comes to goalies. Of course there's always exceptions, but I they generally don't hit their stride till they're older, so they're typically out of their ELCs by the time they become anything of use, plus you have a clearer picture of how good they're going to be.

Thats mainly true for non-first round picks. Vasilevskiy was a backup his first 2 years of ELC and a starter on year 3. Knight had almost 60 games throughout his ELC. Oettinger was a starter his third year of ELC. Even Samsonov put up 2 years of solid backup work before his game fell apart.

Askarov has played 3 NHL games.

 

[devilsblood]

Thats mainly true for non-first round picks. Vasilevskiy was a backup his first 2 years of ELC and a starter on year 3. Knight had almost 60 games throughout his ELC. Oettinger was a starter his third year of ELC. Even Samsonov put up 2 years of solid backup work before his game fell apart.

Askarov has played 3 NHL games.

Askarov has put up solid AHL numbers, but as you say has not proven himself even a little at the NHL level.

That to me is the problem, we don't know if he can handle even a moderate NHL workload, the ELC is whatever. The team still owns his rights and goalies don't get paid a ton on that first deal. If he has a good year playing 30-35 games, whoever holds his rights will be happy to sign him to an Oettinger type contract. If he has a meh year, he get's less then that.