Devils 2021 training camp thread (news, notes and speculation) - Part III [MOD warning in OP]

[devilsblood]

There are very clearly four tiers of prospects right now.

Mercer Tier - Mercer
On The Cusp Tier - Holtz, Bahl, Foote
Needs A Bit More Time Tier - Okhotiuk, Stillman, Clarke, Vukojevich, Thompson, Daws
Who Cares Tier - Everyone else

I know what you are saying but Bahl and Foote in the same tier as Holtz doesn't seem right.

 

[Lou is God]

Oh, on the NJ.com front, we're on Day 63 of their shunning of the state's only pro team.

I mean Jesus H. Christ, at least throw up an AP story or something on the game.

 

[Devils731]

Hughes’ goal last night is a good example of his “not defense” defense.

Even if he hadn’t scored, he had taken the puck away from Washington and prevented them from scoring for a certain amount of time.

Since the defense happened in the Devils offensive zone I believe some wouldn’t consider it defense but maybe that’s a good play to change some people’s minds. Defense(and offense) happen everywhere on the rink.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Shara's accuracy is decent and the power on his shot is excellent, but what's truly special in my view is his release. The puck is often in the goal before the goaltender even reacts to his shot, I simply cannot remember the last time I saw a shooter with such a quick release.

Shara’s release is so unique and deceptive. I actually don’t think it’s that he gets it off that quickly…it’s just that it fools goalies. And his shot being as heavy as it is definitely doesn’t hurt either.

I think Holtz’s release is a lot more traditional in that he’s able to just snap it off with pinpoint accuracy.

 

[Devils731]

Shara’s release is so unique and deceptive

Agreed, I think Shara’s biggest shooting strength is goalies have trouble figuring out where and when it’s going.

Obviously the traditional stuff is good too but he fools goalies when just shooting his regular shot.

The Atheltic had a really good article on Matthew’s shot and how the deceptiveness is such a key feature of its effectiveness. I think Shara is in that same boat.

 

[GameSeven]

It'll be funny to see how all the people using him as an avatar for their own skepticism will react, though.

This reeks of projection to me. Most people who are supporting him seem to be saying they understand his reluctance but almost nobody is acting like he's championing a cause. I'm certain most of the folks you're thinking about will just be happy to put the episode in the past. By far the most shrill voices have been those who oppose his stance.

 

[BigDevs93]

Lineup I'd like to see opening night
Zacha - Hischier - Bratt (great chemistry, good all-round top line)
Sharangovich - Hughes - Holtz (exciting offensive upside)
Tatar - Mercer - Kuokkanen (good mix of skill and upside, reliable defensively)
Wood - Mcleod - Thompson (speed, speed, speed)

Extras - Vesey, Johnsson, Boqvist

 

[JimEIV]

Hughes’ goal last night is a good example of his “not defense” defense.

Even if he hadn’t scored, he had taken the puck away from Washington and prevented them from scoring for a certain amount of time.

Since the defense happened in the Devils offensive zone I believe some wouldn’t consider it defense but maybe that’s a good play to change some people’s minds. Defense(and offense) happen everywhere on the rink.

Yeah...Sorry, no. You obviously can make that case based on numbers but it literally that is what NO - ONE means when they are talking about good defensive forwards...Does your example benefit the team? Of course it does...But what you are doing is dismissing the qualities that a good defensive forward posses as if they are not needed.

Sustaining the attack long enough to not have to play defense is just not the same as a "good defensive forward" even if the percentages result in the same. There is a reason the cliche "a 200 foot player" is thrown around so often and what you are describing is simply not that.

 

[devilsblood]

It does seem the team will make room for Holtz and Mercer if those guys earn their way on. And Boqvist is a guy that could get squeezed early. I don't think they would put Johnsson in street clothes, when they can send Boqvist down to play in the AHL.

But if Johnsson struggles early, I do think the presence of vet's like Vesey and Jankowski could lead to Johnnson getting the hook. Vesey does bring PK ability. Jankowski brings size.

Mercer and Holtz being righties does take away some of that lefty overflow too, we are not going to need to ice 7 or 8 lw's.

I'm hoping for a rebound from Jonsson, but he's going to have to do so in the bottom 6 with very little specialty teams minutes. Much tougher situation then what he was granted early last year.

 

[OmNomNom]

Yeah...Sorry, no. You obviously can make that case based on numbers but it literally that is what NO - ONE means when they are talking about good defensive forwards...Does your example benefit the team? Of course it does...But what you are doing is dismissing the qualities that a good defensive forward posses as if they are not needed.

Sustaining the attack long enough to not have to play defense is just not the same as a "good defensive forward" even if the percentages result in the same. There is a reason the cliche "a 200 foot player" is thrown around so often and what you are describing is simply not that.

i don't think he's dismissing traditionally good defensive forwards.. but rather pointing out a strength in his forechecking skills, which is an aspect of being a good defensive forward. he absolutely has a lot to work on though

 

[Hisch13r]

There are very clearly four tiers of prospects right now.

Mercer Tier - Mercer
On The Cusp Tier - Holtz, Bahl, Foote
Needs A Bit More Time Tier - Okhotiuk, Stillman, Clarke, Vukojevich, Thompson, Daws
Who Cares Tier - Everyone else

Bahl and Foote shouldn’t be on the cusp at all to me. Bahl’s never shown anything and Foote is not good enough. Holtz is very easily a tier over them.

 

[Hisch13r]

Hughes’ goal last night is a good example of his “not defense” defense.

Even if he hadn’t scored, he had taken the puck away from Washington and prevented them from scoring for a certain amount of time.

Since the defense happened in the Devils offensive zone I believe some wouldn’t consider it defense but maybe that’s a good play to change some people’s minds. Defense(and offense) happen everywhere on the rink.

Agree with everything outside of saying offense happens everywhere. Defense does because anything that prevents chances from your own net is defense. For offense though I think you have to actively create a chance.

 

[devilsblood]

Bahl and Foote shouldn’t be on the cusp at all to me. Bahl’s never shown anything and Foote is not good enough. Holtz is very easily a tier over them.

Outside of an injury Bahl is going to start in the AHL, but he is the pretty clear 4th lhd at the moment.

 

[Hisch13r]

Lineup I'd like to see opening night
Zacha - Hischier - Bratt (great chemistry, good all-round top line)
Sharangovich - Hughes - Holtz (exciting offensive upside)
Tatar - Mercer - Kuokkanen (good mix of skill and upside, reliable defensively)
Wood - Mcleod - Thompson (speed, speed, speed)

Extras - Vesey, Johnsson, Boqvist

The Zacha-Nico-Bratt line having great chemistry is so overblown. It’s also not good all around. Nico’s always been average at best defensively. Bratt’s really good defensively. Zacha is awful defensively. They’re fine but nothing special. I’m swapping Zacha and Tatar on those lines.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

This reeks of projection to me. Most people who are supporting him seem to be saying they understand his reluctance but almost nobody is acting like he's championing a cause. I'm certain most of the folks you're thinking about will just be happy to put the episode in the past. By far the most shrill voices have been those who oppose his stance.

Okay, why is that? Don't take this the wrong way, but you jumping in a page ago to talk about mRNA being "new" is kind of exactly what I'm talking about.

Out of respect for our exhausted and I'm sure disheveled mods at this point, not particularly interested in discussing this further. Let's hope Blackwood does take the shots and we can all move on with our lives and competitive Devils hockey.

 

[NjdPass]

Lineup I'd like to see opening night
Zacha - Hischier - Bratt (great chemistry, good all-round top line)
Sharangovich - Hughes - Holtz (exciting offensive upside)
Tatar - Mercer - Kuokkanen (good mix of skill and upside, reliable defensively)
Wood - Mcleod - Thompson (speed, speed, speed)

Extras - Vesey, Johnsson, Boqvist

This is actually a great lineup if everyone plays how they are supposed too. Thompson with a McLeod and Wood is perfect because they bring the size to protect him.

I would personally just swap Hischer and Zacha. Mercer and Kuokkanen would be the ones in the dirty areas to get Tatar the puck, but Zacha on that line would be relentless.

Also, Hishcer and Bratt are fantastic playmakers and can dish the puck to TATAR.

Get rid of Vesey, he looks slow and cant keep up with our guys.

 

[Devils731]

Yeah...Sorry, no. You obviously can make that case based on numbers but it literally that is what NO - ONE means when they are talking about good defensive forwards

That’s not true at all, which is why we’ve had this discussion because people have fallen on both sides of the debate.

But what you are doing is dismissing the qualities that a good defensive forward posses as if they are not needed.

I’m not dismissing other defensive attributes as if they are not needed by saying here is another aspect.

One saying shooting is offense isn’t dismissing passing as an offensive skill.

Sustaining the attack long enough to not have to play defense is just not the same as a "good defensive forward" even if the percentages result in the same. There is a reason the cliche "a 200 foot player" is thrown around so often and what you are describing is simply not that.

You agree the result is preventing goals so that still seems like good defense for me.

In this case it wasn’t even about sustaining the attack; Hughes took possession away from the other team. Taking the puck away from the opponent is defense wherever it happens on the ice.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

There are very clearly four tiers of prospects right now.

Mercer Tier - Mercer
On The Cusp Tier - Holtz, Bahl, Foote
Needs A Bit More Time Tier - Okhotiuk, Stillman, Clarke, Vukojevich, Thompson, Daws
Who Cares Tier - Everyone else

I'm consistently disappointed with Foote. He's always just kind of there. I will say I thought he looked faster than I've seen him last night, but he still has terrible Clarkson-level balance. Somehow always manages to be on his ass. I don't have a lot of expectations for him at the NHL level.

 

[JimEIV]

i don't think he's dismissing traditionally good defensive forwards.. but rather pointing out a strength in his forechecking skills, which is an aspect of being a good defensive forward. he absolutely has a lot to work on though

Even still what Hughes does is not traditional forechecking...Hughes success in the takeaway area has come from his ability to pick-pocket...I am not at all dismissing the value of this but again that isn't traditional defense. That is not the regular attacking the puck carrier into bad decisions or forcing them to take a bad routes with the puck.

 

[BigDevs93]

The Zacha-Nico-Bratt line having great chemistry is so overblown. It’s also not good all around. Nico’s always been average at best defensively. Bratt’s really good defensively. Zacha is awful defensively. They’re fine but nothing special. I’m swapping Zacha and Tatar on those lines.

I'm not against that idea at all, I would still like those lines, but to say that that line didn't have great chemistry and is a good all-around line is a miss for me.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Bahl and Foote shouldn’t be on the cusp at all to me. Bahl’s never shown anything and Foote is not good enough. Holtz is very easily a tier over them.

Agreed on Bahl and Foote. I've liked Okhotiuk much more than Bahl.

In terms of readiness:
Mercer

gap

Holtz / Clarke / Okhotiuk
Foote / Zetterlund / Bahl

 

[JimEIV]

That’s not true at all, which is why we’ve had this discussion because people have fallen on both sides of the debate.

QUOTE="JimEIV, post: 180278181, member: 7703"]But what you are doing is dismissing the qualities that a good defensive forward posses as if they are not needed.

You agree the result is preventing goals so that still seems like good defense for me.

I think you are relying to much on the percentages and not enough on the situational realities...Hughes does what he does...The percentages stack up. He is not the player you want protecting his own zone with a one goal lead late in the game regardless of what the percentages are.

 

[Hisch13r]

Agreed on Bahl and Foote. I've liked Okhotiuk much more than Bahl.

In terms of readiness:
Mercer

gap

Holtz / Clarke / Okhotiuk
Foote / Zetterlund / Bahl

I’m putting a gap between Holtz and the rest as well

 

[devilsblood]

Even still what Hughes does is not traditional forechecking...Hughes success in the takeaway area has come from his ability to pick-pocket...I am not at all dismissing the value of this but again that isn't traditional defense. That is not the regular attacking the puck carrier into bad decisions or forcing them to take a bad routes with the puck.

I'm in agreement that a guys ability to keep possession of the puck is not defense.

But pick pocketing the puck away from opponents? That's absolutely defense.

 

[devilsblood]

I'm not against that idea at all, I would still like those lines, but to say that that line didn't have great chemistry and is a good all-around line is a miss for me.

They played well together on the ice, and they are best buds off the ice.

Now the friends thing is not something I'd typically factor in, but with Nico as captain, and him being friends with Zacha, I think that helps keep Zacha's game heading in the right direction moreso then it would in most other situations.