Ripshot 43
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Devils 2021 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXVII
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Taking generational talents to prove a point is kind of flawed and to say that the Oilers are now in the playoffs, when they missed out about 85% of the time since he joined the franchise, isn’t a reigning endorsement. One would think that having the 2 best centers in the game would guarantee you a playoff spot each and every year.
It took a while for the Oilers to get going and the same can be said about the Leafs and their loaded roster of high picks.
ChicksDigTheTrap
No quick fixes, no cutting corners and no cheating
You are not very good at math, are you?
Devilsgrl35
Registered User
Seriously, I had Covid six weeks ago and I still feel insanely fatigued by the end of the day. I can't even imagine physically exerting myself like an athlete has to right now. I now totally understand why we struggled so much after our season resumed.
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beekay414
Registered User
Yep. I had it a year ago and it was only a mild case. I still have fatigue problems. It doesn't render me incapable of playing sports/doing activities but it saps me a lot quicker than it used to. Now, imagine being a professional athlete, playing a grueling game and having to do it 4/7 days a week. Just baffling that people are so willing to brush it off like it's just some lame excuse.
I’m pretty sure he made them once since getting drafted by the Oilers and is about to make them this year if everything stays as is.
If you can’t understand the point I made and you’re biggest issue in my post is the math... yeah.
And Ference was a terrible player on a team full of terrible players except for guys like Eberle and Hall. I agree that those guys were probably dicks, but calling them out makes no sense - they were the team's best players on a club full of stragglers.
This is the problem I have with 'culture talk' - Andrew Ference was trying his damnedest, but the more he played for that Oilers team, the less they were going to win. He was awful by the time he got to Edmonton. So you get a 'proven winner' like Andrew Ference who was a third pairing D at best and hand him a ton of minutes - that's demoralizing too.
TrufleShufle
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- Aug 31, 2012
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Damn, I was going to respond to him with "Doesn't matter that he was there in the locker room and has experience with this stuff, he's a bad hockey player and what he said doesn't agree with what I said, so he's wrong," but didn't because I thought I would be mistaken for actually believing it.
Maybe he was calling those guys out because they were the best, but cared the least.
Well yeah, you don’t bring in a veteran who can’t keep up and ask him to take over the locker room. Those kids knew they weren’t going to be benched cause they were Edmonton’s best players and the voice of an over the hill veteran that can’t back it up on the ice isn’t worth much.
I mean, he did a great job - the media loved Ference and turned on Eberle and Hall, both of whom were moved out for peanuts, and the Oilers are still mediocre despite having 2 of the best players in the world. Meanwhile Eberle is thriving on the Island and Hall won an MVP.
Team Concept
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How is it possible that the Devils have a 4-16-3 record at home this year and a 10-6-3 record away? Doesn't make sense.
TrufleShufle
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Hall had one great year after a stern talking to about what he wanted for his future and then went back to himself after losing. He is still a great player, nobody debates that, but he works from home a lot as well.
Also Eberle didn't just get traded and become way better, he started taking off when they started winning.... weird.
But yea, coaches and players saying these things over and over means nothing, they don't know the game like we do.
Player motivation has to come from some were, some players its within some need outside help. Alex Semin could have been one of the greatest goal scorers of the past decade if had the motivation. That certainly had nothing to do with winning or losing. The Oilers had veterans in the room like Horcoff, Hemskey and Penner. Fans and media certainly turned on the young players for one reason or another.
Those teams had 0 structure and awful coaching. I would contribute that to why they sucked way more then any sort of culture. Veterans they had were okay, they got phased out and now the team is starting to play much better the past few seasons. I don't think the thing holding the team back from being perennial cup contenders is their culture. They are a very top heavy team and lack balance depth and solid defense.
MachoDiablo
Registered User
I don't think anyone believes "culture" is completely unimportant, but it is completely secondary to talent, roster construction, and organizational depth. Those three latter things lead to winning play, which in turn helps engender a "culture of winning" or however you want to describe it.
Tom Seaver used to tell the story of when Gil Hodges became manager of the Mets in the late 60s, how he helped a team of young kids mature and learn to not accept losing after the really rough beginnings of the Mets during their expansion years. I don't doubt Seaver's account for a minute, that Hodges had such an impact on him and other players and helped them believe in themselves and to expect better from themselves, but the fact is that the Mets went from a near-last place team to a World Series winner in 1969 because they had players like Tom Seaver on the roster to begin with, top flight talent that was good enough to contend for a pennant thanks to the good work done to bring talent into the organization after starting out with very little in 1962. That's not to say Hodges' influence didn't matter; he's a legend to the organization for a reason, and what he likely imparted on his players was the need to demand the best of themselves, to not feel comfortable with losing, and to work hard and give it their best effort no matter what and trust that their talent would carry them to better days. It did, but it took time; Hodges demanding better of them didn't translate into wins until that championship year, because even talented young teams have to take their lumps before their glory days come along.
Plus, it wasn't as if Seaver, Koosman, Jones, and other stars from the Miracle Mets team had been there since 1962 (well, besides Ed Kranepool, who was basically the Daneyko of those early Mets teams) and experienced all the losing themselves, they all got there later on and only experienced a few low-standings finishes. We shouldn't conflate our experiences as fans of feeling mostly frustrated with the Devils since 2012 with the experiences of guys like Hughes, who's only in year two, and as long as the organization is demanding hard work from the guys then I'm not really worried about a "losing culture" mentality seeping in. Just watching them, you can tell they're trying, but that not being good enough is the nature of the beast when you're the literal youngest team in the league, even younger than some college teams.
Tom Seaver used to tell the story of when Gil Hodges became manager of the Mets in the late 60s, how he helped a team of young kids mature and learn to not accept losing after the really rough beginnings of the Mets during their expansion years. I don't doubt Seaver's account for a minute, that Hodges had such an impact on him and other players and helped them believe in themselves and to expect better from themselves, but the fact is that the Mets went from a near-last place team to a World Series winner in 1969 because they had players like Tom Seaver on the roster to begin with, top flight talent that was good enough to contend for a pennant thanks to the good work done to bring talent into the organization after starting out with very little in 1962. That's not to say Hodges' influence didn't matter; he's a legend to the organization for a reason, and what he likely imparted on his players was the need to demand the best of themselves, to not feel comfortable with losing, and to work hard and give it their best effort no matter what and trust that their talent would carry them to better days. It did, but it took time; Hodges demanding better of them didn't translate into wins until that championship year, because even talented young teams have to take their lumps before their glory days come along.
Plus, it wasn't as if Seaver, Koosman, Jones, and other stars from the Miracle Mets team had been there since 1962 (well, besides Ed Kranepool, who was basically the Daneyko of those early Mets teams) and experienced all the losing themselves, they all got there later on and only experienced a few low-standings finishes. We shouldn't conflate our experiences as fans of feeling mostly frustrated with the Devils since 2012 with the experiences of guys like Hughes, who's only in year two, and as long as the organization is demanding hard work from the guys then I'm not really worried about a "losing culture" mentality seeping in. Just watching them, you can tell they're trying, but that not being good enough is the nature of the beast when you're the literal youngest team in the league, even younger than some college teams.
NJDevs26
Once upon a time...
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People sometimes overrate culture in relation to talent but also some people act like culture doesn’t exist at all because if you can’t measure it with a stat it’s irrelevant. Stat watchers hate the intangible arguments.
SteveCangialosi123
Registered User
Probably 3 quarters of the roster is fighting for their job and their place on the team next year or in the NHL at all. Losing culture my taint, we are just very young, not that good, and worn down from the schedule.
njdevils1982
Hell Toupée!!!
well put… cant underestimate a solid team mentality…. i know it's cliche' and im sure most teams have some sort of motto up on the wall or in the tunnel to the ice but those are just words and mean nothing unless the management really instills a positive culture and the players buy into it
i dont really want to get too into this but lou really did that for eons….(and im not trying to shit on the current regime….they're forging their own path)
BurntToast
Registered User
I am happy with the growth, but I am not satisfied with were the Devils are currently. Should Sharangovich, Kuokkanen, Zacha or anyone not named (Nico/Jack) be in the top 6? The Devils are 3rd from last on the PP, dead last on the PK, 4th worst at F/O, and we can keep going.
You can say all these prospects are coming but this was a lost year. Most guys only played a handful of games for a bad AHL team. Plus, Holtz had a rough second half. Why put this unnecessary pressure on them to save a franchise? Look how good Smith looks after marinating.
I feel like this can be a pivotal offseason. They need to take advantage of the cap/expansion draft. Waiting until the team is ready, while passing on possible opportunities that won’t come again seems foolish.
You can say all these prospects are coming but this was a lost year. Most guys only played a handful of games for a bad AHL team. Plus, Holtz had a rough second half. Why put this unnecessary pressure on them to save a franchise? Look how good Smith looks after marinating.
I feel like this can be a pivotal offseason. They need to take advantage of the cap/expansion draft. Waiting until the team is ready, while passing on possible opportunities that won’t come again seems foolish.
glenwo2
JESPER BRATWURST
I pointed out that it is a significant reason for the team's struggles but I also said it wasn't the only reason (check your PM, btw).
And whether or not I had Covid has nothing to do with anything.
How that is a qualifier to say anything about this team's struggles is ridiculous.
I don't think culture is related to wins and losses so much the people around and their mental fortitude.
Oneiro
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- Mar 28, 2013
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Most cultures out there, in sports or elsewhere, are losing cultures. I'm partial to the quantitative take on things but culture is the thing that takes good results and makes them superlative. And it takes mediocre assets and elevates them. The result is usually things that have immense relative value (Zajac's role here) vs. absolute value (how Zajac is perceived at the deadline). I've noticed there's sometimes a little too much emphasis on accumulating absolute value instead of thinking about the dynamics of what is occurring internally.
Sometimes, I feel like the only one who considers four cups between Crosby and Ovechkin somewhat pathetic considering how talented they are and that they have two other HoFers sitting next to them. Could've seen something truly special but we got a pretty straightforward arc out of both groups.
For now, we're on a similar, vanilla path of accumulating assets and hitting a talent threshold. Which has worked and resulted in cups. Just not as many as could've been had.
Most of you guys won't read this but, from my experience, I agree with it completely. Slootman is the Lou of tech CEOs, btw:
Amp It Up!
Sometimes, I feel like the only one who considers four cups between Crosby and Ovechkin somewhat pathetic considering how talented they are and that they have two other HoFers sitting next to them. Could've seen something truly special but we got a pretty straightforward arc out of both groups.
For now, we're on a similar, vanilla path of accumulating assets and hitting a talent threshold. Which has worked and resulted in cups. Just not as many as could've been had.
Most of you guys won't read this but, from my experience, I agree with it completely. Slootman is the Lou of tech CEOs, btw:
Amp It Up!
beekay414
Registered User
The fact that you felt the need to PM me over something so small is hilarious. Enjoy your weekend.
glenwo2
JESPER BRATWURST
Care to answer my question?
Why is it whether I have had Covid or not, have anything to do with the NJ Devils Hockey team?
Unknown Caller
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- Apr 30, 2009
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Lou’s teams won because he had hall of famers up and down the lineup and the greatest goaltender of all time. Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer, Elias, Mogilny, etc.
If his “culture” was so important, why did the organization implode under his watch when the hall of famers and all-stars finally left?
Fitz signed Murray and Kulikov rather than rush the kids last offseason. Presumably he will do something along those lines next offseason. Hopefully they get good value on short term vets.
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