Devils 2021 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXVII

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Unknown Caller

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Oh don't get me wrong, bad look, bad coach, all of it. But the point was that being worried about a losing mentality isn't some made up thing on the internet. People who have been around the league for longer then this site existed know it.

The idea that there is this nebulous "losing culture" that carries over from year to year and impacts player's abilities on the ice is complete bullshit. I don't care what a coach with a winning percentage below .500 says.
 

Eggtimer

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Oh don't get me wrong, bad look, bad coach, all of it. But the point was that being worried about a losing mentality isn't some made up thing on the internet. People who have been around the league for longer then this site existed know it.
Yes for sure . It becomes the norm almost. If that’s all you do is lose and get used to it happening, it’s not a good thing to get sucked into and try to fight your way out of it . At the same time , you have to be realistic though. You can’t go around flipping out when your young and inexperienced team is getting best by other veteran contender teams chalked full of good players. It’s a hard situation to be in. I just want the kids to keep paying hard and realize that eventually their hard work will pay off as they improve.
 
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Unknown Caller

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I'd agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

If losing culture was a thing, why didn't Washington perpetually suck with Ovechkin or Pittsburgh perpetually suck with Crosby? How is McDavid in the playoffs with Edmonton right now? These teams all had "losing cultures" that should have made them lose indefinitely.

Or did the teams just get more talented through high draft picks and the infusion of talent because "losing culture" is just not admitting that the roster sucks?
 

Eggtimer

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Anyone else feeling like Jack is on the verge of another mini “breakout”. He is getting chances , it’s just him and linemates are having crappy luck. He is working hard and it has to start coming around for him now where he will get on a little heater for points. Bad timing running into a desperate Rags team and a hot goalie, but I think Huhes is going to start raking in some points to show for his efforts here soon .
Regarding the entire loser culture thing . I think it has some impact on teams . It sometimes takes a elite level player or two with the desire to win to turn things around . Players feed off of each other and winning becomes contagious. If everyone is pulling in the rope as hard as they can and can see results for it , I think it goes a long ways. When you constantly bust your ass off and get nothing to show for it , you start to look for other moral victories instead of winning . When you feel you are beat before you even begin , it’s when losing becomes normal and it can become dangerous .
 

TrufleShufle

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If losing culture was a thing, why didn't Washington perpetually suck with Ovechkin or Pittsburgh perpetually suck with Crosby. How is McDavid in the playoffs with Edmonton right now? These teams all had "losing cultures" that should have made them lose indefinitely.

Or did the teams just get more talented through high draft picks and the infusion of talent?
Mcdavid is a freak who stuck it out. But that was after dumping guys year after year and picking high. Mcdavid and Drai would make any team in the league a cup contender but still had issues for how many years?

You can keep trying to dumb it down and cherry pick all you want, but you see it across every sport and every industry. When shit is bad, a lot of good people tend to float down to the level of everyone around them. Not skill wise, but in compete level, effort put into practice, or getting better at whatever it is they are trying to do. There are a lot of people who can break out of that, and you can bring people in to be better examples, I don't know how you could dog a practice with someone like Jagr on the team and feel good about yourself for example.

Am I saying if we don't win a game the rest of the season we are screwed forever? No, but it is something to think about and recognize.

I'm not freaking out and saying we are doomed, just having a discussion about something, and because it's the internet and you lean towards it not mattering you need to ignore it completely like it's some folk lore just to make a point. So we are all set here.
 

Poppy Whoa Sonnet

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Anyone else feeling like Jack is on the verge of another mini “breakout”. He is getting chances , it’s just him and linemates are having crappy luck. He is working hard and it has to start coming around for him now where he will get on a little heater of a in here shortly. Bad to timing running into a desperate Rags team and a hit goalie, but I think Huhes is going to start raking in some points to show for his efforts here soon .

He looks like he's gonna start putting up points after the other team takes a 2 goal lead in a bunch of games the rest of the way.
 
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TrufleShufle

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Anyone else feeling like Jack is on the verge of another mini “breakout”. He is getting chances , it’s just him and linemates are having crappy luck. He is working hard and it has to start coming around for him now where he will get on a little heater for points. Bad timing running into a desperate Rags team and a hot goalie, but I think Huhes is going to start raking in some points to show for his efforts here soon .
Regarding the entire loser culture thing . I think it has some impact on teams . It sometimes takes a elite level player or two with the desire to win to turn things around . Players feed off of each other and winning becomes contagious. If everyone is pulling in the rope as hard as they can and can see results for it , I think it goes a long ways. When you constantly bust your ass off and get nothing to show for it , you start to look for other moral victories instead of winning . When you feel you are beat before you even begin , it’s when losing becomes normal and it can become dangerous .
Yeah and that's why I'm excited about Jack, he seems like the type of kid to not GAF about losing and play his best regardless. He obviously has off nights, but he doesn't strike me as someone who will say "screw it, it doesn't matter" when everything is going to shit, but rather "just give me the puck I'll do it myself," type guy.
 

Unknown Caller

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Mcdavid is a freak who stuck it out. But that was after dumping guys year after year and picking high. Mcdavid and Drai would make any team in the league a cup contender but still had issues for how many years?

You can keep trying to dumb it down and cherry pick all you want, but you see it across every sport and every industry. When shit is bad, a lot of good people tend to float down to the level of everyone around them. Not skill wise, but in compete level, effort put into practice, or getting better at whatever it is they are trying to do. There are a lot of people who can break out of that, and you can bring people in to be better examples, I don't know how you could dog a practice with someone like Jagr on the team and feel good about yourself for example.

Am I saying if we don't win a game the rest of the season we are screwed forever? No, but it is something to think about and recognize.

I'm not freaking out and saying we are doomed, just having a discussion about something, and because it's the internet and you lean towards it not mattering you need to ignore it completely like it's some folk lore just to make a point. So we are all set here.

There is just zero evidence or legitimacy behind people freaking out about a loss saying that the team is going to be ruined as a result of a losing culture. That's the basis of where the entire discussion originated.

The 06-07 Blackhawks had 71 points. That roster had Dave Bolland, Troy Brouwer, Dustin Byfuglien, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook and Patrick Sharp. They missed the playoffs again the following year with Kane, Ladd, Hjalmarsson, Toews, and Versteeg as well.

They continued to trade away veterans not part of that core and then won multiple Stanley Cups. They survived the bad seasons. Losing does not carry over from year to year.
 

TrufleShufle

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There is just zero evidence or legitimacy behind people freaking out about a loss saying that the team is going to be ruined as a result of a losing culture. That's the basis of where the entire discussion originated.

The 06-07 Blackhawks had 71 points. That roster had Dave Bolland, Troy Brouwer, Dustin Byfuglien, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook and Patrick Sharp. They missed the playoffs again the following year with Kane, Ladd, Hjalmarsson, Toews, and Versteeg.

They continued to trade away veterans not part of that core and then one multiple Stanley Cups. They survived the bad seasons. Losing does not carry over from year to year.

That's where you brought it. Because it's an easier argument.
 

Oneiro

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I'm guessing that what some are trying to say is that learning to be a pro doesn't have to be some prolonged process if there is a worthwhile system in place. I agree with the idea that you can push people to higher standards, probably further than they would push themselves. You need some credibility and emotional control, of which Roy has one of those things.

When your team is super young and the vets, no matter how exemplary, aren't good enough to carry the rough moments, there is not much to implement. Adding veterans who "get it" is hard if you're actually being discerning about both character and the cap. There are maybe 2-3 Boyle or Coleman types every year and most of them go to contenders.

The culture stuff is by far what I miss the most about Lou and the franchise - the logo truly being bigger than the name on the back - but that is built over years and loses credibility when you're not at the top of the standings and your incoming players are not stealing jobs anymore.

And before anyone goes on about the Isles turnaround, Matt Barzal is better than every player who has suited up for this organization since 2015.
 

Unknown Caller

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Do it Fitz. 5 years 10.5mm AAV

compensation is 2 firsts, 2nd, 3rd.


Vancouver will match almost anything for Pettersson. They've apparently set aside about $16 million for Pettersson and Hughes and will move whatever contracts they need to move to match the offer. Everyone tosses the offer sheet idea around and I've never seen it actually result in a start player going to a different team (see Aho, Marner, Barzal, Sergachev, etc.).
 
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Unknown Caller

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That's where you brought it. Because it's an easier argument.

No that was the entire argument beginning with the post-game thread last night. Everyone panicking that this is creating a losing culture that will ruin the roster moving forward and poison the young players. I'm not sure how you're now moving the goalposts, but ok.
 

None Shall Pass

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'I can't catch my breath': How teams struggle after COVID-19 — and what it means for the Canucks

This article is technically about the Canucks, but it notes how badly us, the Sabres, and the Flyers have played post-Covid break versus pre-Covid break.

I did a little math:

Pre-break, we were playing at a 91 point pace (82 game season).

Post-break, we're playing at a 60 point pace.



That correlation might be something real but to state it as raw numbers is terrible. Need to makes it Differential/Gm avg. for rate adjusted metric. How many games are in the Pre and Post numbers there?

Nine games pre-break: -0.11 goal diff / game

33 games post-break: -0.94 goal diff / game
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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Vancouver will match almost anything for Pettersson. They've apparently set aside about $16 million for Pettersson and Hughes and will move whatever contracts they need to move to match the offer. Everyone tosses the offer sheet idea around and I've never seen it actually result in a start player going to a different team (see Aho, Marner, Barzal, Sergachev, etc.).

$16 million for those 2 eats up the rest of their cap and they only would have 3 DMen signed in that scenario.
 

Blackjack

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Vancouver will match almost anything for Pettersson. They've apparently set aside about $16 million for Pettersson and Hughes and will move whatever contracts they need to move to match the offer. Everyone tosses the offer sheet idea around and I've never seen it actually result in a start player going to a different team (see Aho, Marner, Barzal, Sergachev, etc.).

They'd be insane not to match, but at least it would make things very painful for them in terms of signing Hughes and managing the rest of their cap.
 

TrufleShufle

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No that was the entire argument beginning with the post-game thread last night. Everyone panicking that this is creating a losing culture that will ruin the roster and quoting Severson. I'm not sure how you're now moving the goalposts, but ok.
I'm not moving any goalposts, I also never panicked about anything. That's the point. It's just a discussion, doesn't have to be a kill or be killed debate. I think there is something to the idea of guys getting into a mentality, and you think it's all bullshit. Not that big of a deal.
 

Unknown Caller

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$16 million for those 2 eats up the rest of their cap and they only would have 3 DMen signed in that scenario.

They will cut corners wherever possible to keep those guys. If it means they lose supporting players and the rest of their roster falls apart, I don't think they care. It would be the apocalypse in Vancouver if Pettersson wore another jersey next season.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

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They will cut corners wherever possible to keep those guys. If it means they lose supporting players and the rest of their roster falls apart, I don't think they care. It would be the apocalypse in Vancouver if Pettersson wore another jersey next season.

oh absolutely, I think they keep them too...its just interesting from a cap perspective given how tight they are going to be

thank God they had to sign Tanner Pearson to an extension though!
 
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TheDuke93

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Anyone else feeling like Jack is on the verge of another mini “breakout”. He is getting chances , it’s just him and linemates are having crappy luck. He is working hard and it has to start coming around for him now where he will get on a little heater for points. Bad timing running into a desperate Rags team and a hot goalie, but I think Huhes is going to start raking in some points to show for his efforts here soon .
Regarding the entire loser culture thing . I think it has some impact on teams . It sometimes takes a elite level player or two with the desire to win to turn things around . Players feed off of each other and winning becomes contagious. If everyone is pulling in the rope as hard as they can and can see results for it , I think it goes a long ways. When you constantly bust your ass off and get nothing to show for it , you start to look for other moral victories instead of winning . When you feel you are beat before you even begin , it’s when losing becomes normal and it can become dangerous .
Agree with the first part not the second part.
 

Camille the Eel

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I do wonder if there’s anyone worth signing in free agency that can score some goals? We desperately need goal scoring in the worst kind of way.

I don’t wanna touch someone like Adam Larsson on defense. He couldn’t even skate 5 years ago and he’s turning 29 early next year and will probably be more expensive than he should be (even in term) because 4th overall pick and all.

I’d rather bring back Murray (not on a long term please) or even re-sign Kulikov to a one year deal, although I’m not sure Kulikov will recreate the season he just had, as I do believe he was playing over his head.
plus Kulikov is getting a multi year deal somewhere I would bet, and if he plays well in the playoffs especially. His stock will be very high this off season.
 
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Jersey Fan 12

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Not sure if winning or losing culture is a tangible thing but momentum sure is.

Good developments tend to lead to more good things and people who would be on the fence start to commit more than they might otherwise when they sense commitment from the rest of the group. That in turn attracts more quality people that might not consider the group.

Perennial losers rarely attract top talent unless there is a flaw that makes them less desirable to the top clubs.

At the same time, places long thought to be dead end destinations - for instance Toronto and the Islanders - can reverse trends if there is the belief that the organization is on an upswing.

Detroit prior to its runs in the 1990's and 2000's was dreadful for many of the seasons after the Gordie Howe era.
 
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