Devils 2021 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXVII

[Triumph]

"He is hopeful Pk will play" Did I miss something?

He had a giant gash in his leg from a skate cut against Pittsburgh on Sunday. Wouldn't be surprising if that's bothering him.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Coaches and players say this stuff over and over in part because they cannot say, in public, 'we lost because our team was not good enough, we did not have enough talent to win'. When a player or coach says that, or even implies that, the next thing they receive is ticket out of town. So there has to be another way to talk about winning and losing without acknowledging that the team tried as hard as they could and simply were not good enough, and that is this nebulous thing called 'culture' which winning teams have and losing teams do not have. I'm not saying culture doesn't exist. I'm saying that it is more of a maximization issue - you worry about culture when your team is good and you want it to be great. When your team is bad, you probably just have bad players, and should not be concerned about making cultural moves unless they also make the team on the ice better.

But beyond that, coaches and players say this sort of stuff about 'wanting it more' because they have NO CONTROL over their team - it is ultimately up to the general manager to provide coaches with the tools to win, and teammates with effective compatriots. I think pretty much any coach knows when he has the tools to win and when he is simply left without that, but I don't think he spends much time worrying about that because it is NOT HIS JOB. His job is to maximize the number of wins he does get out of a given group, or with Ruff this year, to let the group grow and learn.

Regarding Hall, he had a major knee injury that cost him half a season - to overlook this injury in favor of castigating him for having a 'bad attitude' is exactly the sort of stuff I am talking about. Hall was leading the league in breakaways - do you think Hall was trying to miss all those breakways? Was he just trying hard to get them and then just not giving max effort on the shot? I'm not going to lie and say I don't think Hall is capable of having a bad attitude - he certainly is. Get the guy on a winning team and I don't think that's a problem anymore.

Eberle didn't get better at all, the point is that he wasn't a broken player when he was traded from Edmonton - he had a bad playoff run and they assumed he just couldn't win in the playoffs, and he goes to the Island and they win several playoff rounds and he scores plenty of goals in those games.

The first example I posted was a coach directly reacting to a player celebrating a goal while being down by 4, the next one was with a guy who was no longer on the team. They weren't excusing anything or trying to not get in trouble while being nice. What was said about Duchene was absolutely something you aren't suppose to say about a player as a coach, (and no matter where anyone stood on the "losing mentality" debate, everyone seemed to agree he was a dick for saying it) so that completely contradicts your point about them saying it because they can't say the truth in public.

Yeah, players and coaches use it as a cop out directly after games sometimes, but sometimes they also say it because it's true.

I don't know why you are so adamant to disprove the fact that guys can get stuck in a rut of not caring. I'm not saying we are there, or even will be there if we lose a few more games in a row, so no reason to be completely against even the idea of it just to win an argument.

To say, "nope, good guys win, bad guys lose, that's it" while closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and completely ignoring the human element of everything is crazy to me.

 

[TrufleShufle]

He had a giant gash in his leg from a skate cut against Pittsburgh on Sunday. Wouldn't be surprising if that's bothering him.

Ooooo yeah, forgot about that, you might be right.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

The first example I posted was a coach directly reacting to a player celebrating a goal while being down by 4, the next one was with a guy who was no longer on the team. They weren't excusing anything or trying to not get in trouble while being nice. What was said about Duchene was absolutely something you aren't suppose to say about a player as a coach, (and no matter where anyone stood on the "losing mentality" debate, everyone seemed to agree he was a dick for saying it) so that completely contradicts your point about them saying it because they can't say the truth in public.

Yeah, players and coaches use it as a cop out directly after games sometimes, but sometimes they also say it because it's true.

I don't know why you are so adamant to disprove the fact that guys can get stuck in a rut of not caring. I'm not saying we are there, or even will be there if we lose a few more games in a row, so no reason to be completely against even the idea of it just to win an argument.

To say, "nope, good guys win, bad guys lose, that's it" while closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and completely ignoring the human element of everything is crazy to me.

Hockey players are human beings first and foremost and just like every other average Joe out there, we tend to slack on the job if the company has no direction. You can be working your tail off everyday but after a while, human nature will kick in and regardless of how hard you work, if the target and the big picture isn’t being met, your effort and dedication will slowly start declining.

 

[Triumph]

The first example I posted was a coach directly reacting to a player celebrating a goal while being down by 4, the next one was with a guy who was no longer on the team. They weren't excusing anything or trying to not get in trouble while being nice. What was said about Duchene was absolutely something you aren't suppose to say about a player as a coach, (and no matter where anyone stood on the "losing mentality" debate, everyone seemed to agree he was a dick for saying it) so that completely contradicts your point about them saying it because they can't say the truth in public.

Patrick Roy coached exactly 3 more NHL games after giving that quote 5 years ago. Not sure he'll ever be back. I forgot he walked away from the Avs in August of that year, but yeah, it feels like a guy who has had it at some level saying that.

Yeah, players and coaches use it as a cop out directly after games sometimes, but sometimes they also say it because it's true.

I don't know why you are so adamant to disprove the fact that guys can get stuck in a rut of not caring. I'm not saying we are there, or even will be there if we lose a few more games in a row, so no reason to be completely against even the idea of it just to win an argument.

Didn't say that can't happen - I think we were all here in 2010-11. It absolutely can, but in the vast majority of cases where people think this is happening, the team is also just not any good. Like look at the numbers in Edmonton, who is not caring there? The guys leading the team in points or the players who would be out of the NHL in 2 years?

To say, "nope, good guys win, bad guys lose, that's it" while closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears and completely ignoring the human element of everything is crazy to me.

Never said that was it, but it's the first thing people should be looking at, and it so seldom is, especially among general managers, who control the narrative around the team through the media. When GM's moves don't work out, someone else is always at fault.

 

[TrufleShufle]

Patrick Roy coached exactly 3 more NHL games after giving that quote 5 years ago. Not sure he'll ever be back. I forgot he walked away from the Avs in August of that year, but yeah, it feels like a guy who has had it at some level saying that.



Didn't say that can't happen - I think we were all here in 2010-11. It absolutely can, but in the vast majority of cases where people think this is happening, the team is also just not any good. Like look at the numbers in Edmonton, who is not caring there? The guys leading the team in points or the players who would be out of the NHL in 2 years?



Never said that was it, but it's the first thing people should be looking at, and it so seldom is, especially among general managers, who control the narrative around the team through the media. When GM's moves don't work out, someone else is always at fault.

So can we sum all this up to me being bothered by it being dismissed far too often and you being bothered by it being used to excuse shit far too often and the truth is somewhere in the middle?

 

[Richer's Ghost]

Currently on Summer Shandy #2. Enjoyment has commenced.

Had my first of the year tonight too.

 

[mdj12784]

It's a bazooka. The only thing that is going to keep Foote from scoring 20+ in his prime is being able to get it off consistently. He does a ton right, I think his transition game is actually very underrated.

Thank you Sir! Much appreciated!

 

[beekay414]

Had my first of the year tonight too.

'Tis a gift from the gods

 

[hidek91]

And Ference was a terrible player on a team full of terrible players except for guys like Eberle and Hall. I agree that those guys were probably dicks, but calling them out makes no sense - they were the team's best players on a club full of stragglers.

Well, Ference even admitted that due to the fact that he was 3rd pair d-man it was hard for him to assume leadership role. So as you said, those roles were taken by guys like Hall and Eberle who were just immature kids without anyone to hone them and the end result was a culture that was a disaster. So that's true that Ference wasn't even a top 4 d-man but the guy has been in 3 Stanley Cup Finals so it's safe to say that he knows what culture should look like and what it shouldn't look like.

The points made by Ference were further reinforced by the fact that Shero had to sit with Hall in 2017 (so 7 years after he got drafted) to get him to buy in and get him into proper mentality. Would you need such discussion with MacKinnon, Crosby, Matthews or McDavid?

This is the problem I have with 'culture talk' - Andrew Ference was trying his damnedest, but the more he played for that Oilers team, the less they were going to win. He was awful by the time he got to Edmonton. So you get a 'proven winner' like Andrew Ference who was a third pairing D at best and hand him a ton of minutes - that's demoralizing too.

That's true, there's no arguing that the roster lacked talent, especially on the back end but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a prime example of a losing culture. Those are two different things though, lack of talent and losing culture both affect franchises negatively but the root issue causing them is different and solving them is also different.

 

[Call Me Al]

in the edmonton case losing culture just amounts to having star players that don’t care as much about winning and i don’t think we can say that about jack and we definitely can’t say that about nico. i’d argue severson as well, he seems pretty upset about losing.

so i’m not worried about a losing culture as much as i am worried about players just simply getting tired of losing and wanting a better situation for themselves away from the devils

 

[Call Me Al]

basically just because they are losing now as they play out the season doesn’t mean that they suddenly find losing acceptable. jack wants to be the best player in the league. nico wants to win. they are going to spend the off-season trying to get better and come back next year with the goal of making the playoffs, and it’s up to fitz to put the right pieces in place so let’s see.

it can’t be stressed enough that we had vet leadership on this team for the past 10 years, and it didn’t amount to much. sometimes these platitudes are overrated

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Kyle Palmieri update :

5 games, 1 goal, -4, 9 shots. Yeah, he might be cooked

 

[Blackjack]

Imagine if Hall ends up being the best rental LMAO

 

[hidek91]

Kyle Palmieri update :

5 games, 1 goal, -4, 9 shots. Yeah, he might be cooked

And to think that some people wanted to re-sign both him and Gusev long-term last offseason.

This is why you don't build around players near 30 when you're in the middle of the rebuild.

He may of course bounce back but the risk/reward of a long term deal with him isn't exactly enticing.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Palmieri’s on ice shooting percentage is 0.00% with the Islanders. It’s been a couple games, too early to say he’s cooked. I would still take him back, and having a poor finish down the stretch could lose him some money.

 

[Nico Hischier]

I hope we can score a goal this afternoon

 

[Blackjack]

I hope we can score a goal this afternoon

Not sure I can handle it. My bud light goal siren is basically a hat rack at this point.

 

[TheDuke93]

Well, Ference even admitted that due to the fact that he was 3rd pair d-man it was hard for him to assume leadership role. So as you said, those roles were taken by guys like Hall and Eberle who were just immature kids without anyone to hone them and the end result was a culture that was a disaster. So that's true that Ference wasn't even a top 4 d-man but the guy has been in 3 Stanley Cup Finals so it's safe to say that he knows what culture should look like and what it shouldn't look like.

The points made by Ference were further reinforced by the fact that Shero had to sit with Hall in 2017 (so 7 years after he got drafted) to get him to buy in and get him into proper mentality. Would you need such discussion with MacKinnon, Crosby, Matthews or McDavid?



That's true, there's no arguing that the roster lacked talent, especially on the back end but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a prime example of a losing culture. Those are two different things though, lack of talent and losing culture both affect franchises negatively but the root issue causing them is different and solving them is also different.

While you make some good points for Hall in particular I think the guy just has issues and is kind of a douche. He bagged it in Buffalo while getting paid a f*** ton of money and then admitted he always wanted to be in Boston. His motivation is weird and not something I would tie to any team.

 

[glenwo2]

Imagine if Hall ends up being the best rental LMAO

That just means he really was dogging it when he was with Buffalo.

He wanted to be with Boston from the get-go, probably because they're always in the playoffs year after year basically and he wanted to be in that situation.

At least that's my theory.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Eeeeeeee

 

[TheDuke93]

Eeeeeeee

IT'S HAPPENING!!!!!!

 

[Unknown Caller]

That just means he really was dogging it when he was with Buffalo.

He wanted to be with Boston from the get-go, probably because they're always in the playoffs year after year basically and he wanted to be in that situation.

At least that's my theory.

He had really bad luck in Buffalo and he's probably overperforming in Boston so far. The truth is somewhere in the middle. He's a shell of the player he was in his prime years before the knee injury, but he's still a decent top 6 guy and way better than what he was showing in Buffalo.

I wouldn't hate to see him get hot for the rest of the season and have Boston throw a fat contract at him that they regret in the near future. He's got some juice left in him, but I think he's going to be streaky player that gradually declines from this point forward.

 

[Triumph]

Well, Ference even admitted that due to the fact that he was 3rd pair d-man it was hard for him to assume leadership role. So as you said, those roles were taken by guys like Hall and Eberle who were just immature kids without anyone to hone them and the end result was a culture that was a disaster. So that's true that Ference wasn't even a top 4 d-man but the guy has been in 3 Stanley Cup Finals so it's safe to say that he knows what culture should look like and what it shouldn't look like.

The points made by Ference were further reinforced by the fact that Shero had to sit with Hall in 2017 (so 7 years after he got drafted) to get him to buy in and get him into proper mentality. Would you need such discussion with MacKinnon, Crosby, Matthews or McDavid?

MacKinnon, Crosby, Matthews, and McDavid were never on dogshit teams for 7 years. They weren't traded right before their franchise was about to take off. Can you imagine being traded to those Devils? You go from possibly playing with McDavid to playing with Travis Zajac? No one went through what Hall went through in his career. Now, to be fair, he is not as good as those players, but it doesn't really matter.

That's true, there's no arguing that the roster lacked talent, especially on the back end but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a prime example of a losing culture. Those are two different things though, lack of talent and losing culture both affect franchises negatively but the root issue causing them is different and solving them is also different.

It's a prime example of a franchise that could not identify talent outside of the 1st round.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Another reason Hall is going to thrive in Boston compared to anywhere else is because he won’t be facing the toughest matchups if everyone is healthy. That’ll go to Marchand, Bergeron, Pastrnak