Devils 2021-22 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XII

[KovalchukFistPump]

Bring Lou back. Let him hire a coach with a system. Hughes already signed his contract so it's okay if they piss him off a bit and get him to buy in to a more structured style.

Wait for Zacha to get motivated and go on a hot streak and then send him away.

That's all I got. Lou needed to go in order for the team to do a proper rebuild, but he's exactly what the team needs right now in terms of leadership. Too bad he's at retirement age.

 

[Saugus]

Bring Lou back. Let him hire a coach with a system. Hughes already signed his contract so it's okay if they piss him off a bit and get him to buy in to a more structured style.

Wait for Zacha to get motivated and go on a hot streak and then send him away.

That's all I got. Lou needed to go in order for the team to do a proper rebuild, but he's exactly what the team needs right now in terms of leadership. Too bad he's at retirement age.

Wait, what? Our problems are that our coach thinks too old-fashioned, we don't have good scoring wingers, and our goalie sucks. The GM is well down the list of issues.

Regardless, your proposed solution to this is to bring back the most old-fashioned guy of all? This seems like a very bad idea to me. There's also the small matter of him still being the GM of the Islanders.

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

Wait, what? Our problems are that our coach thinks too old-fashioned, we don't have good scoring wingers, and our goalie sucks. The GM is well down the list of issues.

Regardless, your proposed solution to this is to bring back the most old-fashioned guy of all? This seems like a very bad idea to me. There's also the small matter of him still being the GM of the Islanders.

Structure. Accountability. That's what Lou would bring. Two things the team is clearly missing.

The Isles went from a tire fire to a legit playoff contender almost overnight.

My idea was based on the Isles sucking this season and deciding to go in a different direction, but it seems like they have righted the ship a little bit lately. Also unfortunately, goaltending is our biggest problem and that's a hard problem to fix.

 

[NJDevs26]

Is Lou bringing Trotz with him?

I respect the guy as much as anyone but it looks like they missed their window and the Isles will be 2015 Devils bad in a couple years. We don’t even have a good enough team to justify an extreme win now GM.

 

[The Wumpus]

Bringing Lou back is exactly what Lou would do. It would create an infinite loop and destroy the universe. Our goaltending problems would be solved however, indirectly.

 

[tailfins]

No he wasn't, he said "so far the only impactful piece back was the pick (Mercer).", so what does that make Siegenthaler? He's not impactful. Please.

Your fight seems to be with @jkrdevil, but I'm not clear why.

Their original post was:

Here is the thing a prospect being traded for a rental…they are likely a prospect that is going to bust. Teams know their players better than other teams and they probably know better who is more likely to make it than not.

I don't think the intent was to litigate the Hall trade.

 

[JrFischer54]

Structure. Accountability. That's what Lou would bring. Two things the team is clearly missing.

The Isles went from a tire fire to a legit playoff contender almost overnight.

My idea was based on the Isles sucking this season and deciding to go in a different direction, but it seems like they have righted the ship a little bit lately. Also unfortunately, goaltending is our biggest problem and that's a hard problem to fix.

lou didn't do that he brought in trotz who did that. if he didnt bring him in and just some ho-hum coach the result would've been the same. the veteran islander team responded well to being coached by torts.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

Your fight seems to be with @jkrdevil, but I'm not clear why.

Their original post was:



I don't think the intent was to litigate the Hall trade.

Well, you responded to my post affirming his even though he had two incorrect statements, who we traded for Jaros and that we also got Siegenthaler with the Hall pick. Then to continue on, you started to refer to a different post of his, other than the one I responded to. Enough said, let's let it die.

 

[JrFischer54]

the problem with this team right now is the players aren't that good. we missed on zacha 6 mikey at 11 those two should be impactful (not useful) top 6 players. the jury is out on smith at 17 but hes looking average. wasted a high second rounder on blackwood. mercer has looked good but way too early to tell. holtz at 6 was meh when called up. muk is another two years away at best. hughes another two years away and stillman 2-3? i know this will get people upset but missing on nico at 1 was huge. i'm not saying we shouldn't have taken him but looking back these players have set the franchise back. they were drafted to be impactful top min players and they have all struggled and suffered big time. i don't know who gets the blame here? scouting? coaching? developmental coaching? i mentioned 10 players 9 drafted in the first round what about 6 of them drafted in the top half of the draft and most are missing their projections. if these kids lived up to their draft potential we would be so much better off but they aren't and its killing us. is it because we need some veterans on this roster and not a bunch of kids who don't know how to win? or what it takes to win?

 

[KovalchukFistPump]

lou didn't do that he brought in trotz who did that. if he didnt bring him in and just some ho-hum coach the result would've been the same. the veteran islander team responded well to being coached by torts.

Yeah, Lou by himself wouldn't do anything. We'd need to find a veteran coach with a winning pedigree. Also, the team needs some guys like Brylin, Pandolfo, and Madden. Lou got lambasted on this site for signing Matt Martin and Leo Komarov but those helped steady what was a horrible defensive team. Yes the Komarov contract turned bad eventually, but he was an underrated signing for a bit there.

That's Fitz's biggest failing this season IMO - the failure to bring in the right vets for the bottom 6.

 

[JrFischer54]

Yeah, Lou by himself wouldn't do anything. We'd need to find a veteran coach with a winning pedigree. Also, the team needs some guys like Brylin, Pandolfo, and Madden. Lou got lambasted on this site for signing Matt Martin and Leo Komarov but those helped steady what was a horrible defensive team. Yes the Komarov contract turned bad eventually, but he was an underrated signing for a bit there.

That's Fitz's biggest failing IMO - the failure to bring in the right vets for the bottom 6.

if you read on this board though fitz was doing amazing by not signing veterans which people just assume will mean a bad contract and hurt our cap.

the thing is a game like last night they are controlling play and find themselves down 3-1 going into the third. who are the players turning to in that dressing room for answers leadership on the ice? nico? gtfoh jack? come on.

 

[Saugus]

Structure. Accountability. That's what Lou would bring. Two things the team is clearly missing.

The Isles went from a tire fire to a legit playoff contender almost overnight.

My idea was based on the Isles sucking this season and deciding to go in a different direction, but it seems like they have righted the ship a little bit lately. Also unfortunately, goaltending is our biggest problem and that's a hard problem to fix.

That's a fair diagnosis of what the team is missing. But I think you can find a coach or GM to provide structure and accountability without having to go back to the same well again. The NHL has changed since Lou's heyday, and I'd rather give new people a chance than bring Lou back just because it worked long ago.

 

[OmNomNom]

has this been posted? both video and mason geertsen's grandma's reaction

 

[JrFischer54]

That's a fair diagnosis of what the team is missing. But I think you can find a coach or GM to provide structure and accountability without having to go back to the same well again. The NHL has changed since Lou's heyday, and I'd rather give new people a chance than bring Lou back just because it worked long ago.

The pieces were all in place for the islanders success they just needed a coach like trotz to put it all together. now if you want to make the argument trotz doesn't go there if lou isn't there? i dunno i guess that could be but given how "hard" lou is to work with not sure he was the reason. just was an open vacancy on a team with some legit talent the previous 3 years they had 100pts 94pts and 80pts. trotz saw that and went there.

 

[My3Sons]

the problem with this team right now is the players aren't that good. we missed on zacha 6 mikey at 11 those two should be impactful (not useful) top 6 players. the jury is out on smith at 17 but hes looking average. wasted a high second rounder on blackwood. mercer has looked good but way too early to tell. holtz at 6 was meh when called up. muk is another two years away at best. hughes another two years away and stillman 2-3? i know this will get people upset but missing on nico at 1 was huge. i'm not saying we shouldn't have taken him but looking back these players have set the franchise back. they were drafted to be impactful top min players and they have all struggled and suffered big time. i don't know who gets the blame here? scouting? coaching? developmental coaching? i mentioned 10 players 9 drafted in the first round what about 6 of them drafted in the top half of the draft and most are missing their projections. if these kids lived up to their draft potential we would be so much better off but they aren't and its killing us. is it because we need some veterans on this roster and not a bunch of kids who don't know how to win? or what it takes to win?

All good points, but they also found Bratt lower in the draft and at this point, they seemingly have some good to very good defenders in Siegnenthaler, Graves, and Dr. Evil. Severson has played reasonably well most games this season when paired with Siegenthaler. Jack Hughes and Nico have played well this season. I'm not sure they've set the team back currently. Maybe in prior seasons. I agree completely that kids in the NHL don't know how to win. Even super talented ones. Look at TOR or COL in the playoffs. They have underperformed and their start players haven't lived up to their standing.

It's the way the game is reffed as the season goes on. It becomes harder to draw penalties and the refs let more clutching, grabbing, interference, holding, and subtle cheap shots go without calls. Kids don't seem to get that. If you want to win in the NHL, you need to clutch, grab, hold, spear, jab, face wash, punch (with your gloves on) and butt end, whenever it looks like its just incidental and part of the play. That's how you win. Young skilled players don't play that way.

 

[My3Sons]

if you read on this board though fitz was doing amazing by not signing veterans which people just assume will mean a bad contract and hurt our cap.

the thing is a game like last night they are controlling play and find themselves down 3-1 going into the third. who are the players turning to in that dressing room for answers leadership on the ice? nico? gtfoh jack? come on.

Fitz signed Bernier, Hamilton, Vesey and Tatar and traded for Johnsson, and Graves. He's added a few vets. He was also clear that he'd look to add players beyond stopgap level when the young players stepped up and the core took shape and to some extent, that hasn't happened. I get wanting to give young guys a couple of years to establish themselves and that you will have inconsistent results along the way. It's frustrating but it makes sense. The trick is to know when enough is enough and to act. Fitz remade the defense in one offseason and I'd expect he will start to work on the forward group this TDL and offseason. Hopefully the goaltending stabilizes as well.

 

[JrFischer54]

All good points, but they also found Bratt lower in the draft and at this point, they seemingly have some good to very good defenders in Siegnenthaler, Graves, and Dr. Evil. Severson has played reasonably well most games this season when paired with Siegenthaler. Jack Hughes and Nico have played well this season. I'm not sure they've set the team back currently. Maybe in prior seasons. I agree completely that kids in the NHL don't know how to win. Even super talented ones. Look at TOR or COL in the playoffs. They have underperformed and their start players haven't lived up to their standing.

It's the way the game is reffed as the season goes on. It becomes harder to draw penalties and the refs let more clutching, grabbing, interference, holding, and subtle cheap shots go without calls. Kids don't seem to get that. If you want to win in the NHL, you need to clutch, grab, hold, spear, jab, face wash, punch (with your gloves on) and butt end, whenever it looks like its just incidental and part of the play. That's how you win. Young skilled players don't play that way.

finding a player like bratt late in the draft is suppose to be the cherry on top that helps you speed up a rebuild or to be a contender quicker when you find those hidden gems. finding bratt that later does make up at all for busting on zacha at 6. in a perfect world the devils should've walked away with barzal and bratt and this team would be lightyears better. thats not intended to get into a debate about who they should've drafted just used as an example on how hitting the 1st early pick helps when combined with the 7th round gem.

jack hasn't held us back so thats why i didnt mention him. nico the only reason i mention him is because compared to who went after him thats where it set us back. again this isn't saying the devils should've drafted makar its just mainly the fact the devils are gifted the #1 pick and somehow they dont walk out of the draft with the best player in the draft thats what hurts this team. has he been better this year? sure he has but thats not saying much just highlights how meh hes been in previous years. again this franchise is a lot better off if nico is widely considered the best player out of the draft but hes not and thats what hurts the team.

 

[guitarguyvic]

the problem with this team right now is the players aren't that good. we missed on zacha 6 mikey at 11 those two should be impactful (not useful) top 6 players. the jury is out on smith at 17 but hes looking average. wasted a high second rounder on blackwood. mercer has looked good but way too early to tell. holtz at 6 was meh when called up. muk is another two years away at best. hughes another two years away and stillman 2-3? i know this will get people upset but missing on nico at 1 was huge. i'm not saying we shouldn't have taken him but looking back these players have set the franchise back. they were drafted to be impactful top min players and they have all struggled and suffered big time. i don't know who gets the blame here? scouting? coaching? developmental coaching? i mentioned 10 players 9 drafted in the first round what about 6 of them drafted in the top half of the draft and most are missing their projections. if these kids lived up to their draft potential we would be so much better off but they aren't and its killing us. is it because we need some veterans on this roster and not a bunch of kids who don't know how to win? or what it takes to win?

Shhh everyone knows that if you just draft a bunch of kids that are hyped up by pundits they will definitely turn out to be great players and there’s no need to surround them with already established talent.

 

[guitarguyvic]

This is the thing I don’t get with the “things are so much better than before and it’s due to better drafting!” crowd. I don’t think the drafting has been much better…the real difference is that we got the luxury of higher picks for several consecutive years, for the first time in decades. The result of that luxury has been a first overall that’s more on the level of a later first round pick, another first overall with some promise of being a ppg player but far from proving he’s a legit game breaker, a sixth rounder who’s basically the only prospect that has surpassed expectations, a bunch of first rounders who have not lived up to expectations and/or appear to be busts, and a bunch of others who show some promise of being average but are clearly nothing special.

I have a hard time believing that Conte and company would have done significantly worse.

This rebuild has been painfully ineffective and rudderless. You could argue it’s better to have a bad team with average prospects then it is to have a bad team with a non-existent farm system like we did six years ago…but that becomes kind of meaningless when several years go by and that hasn’t resulted in the team playing better.

 

[Devils731]

Shhh everyone knows that if you just draft a bunch of kids that are hyped up by pundits they will definitely turn out to be great players and there’s no need to surround them with already established talent.

The Devils signed Hamilton, Tatar, and Bernier; those are all good veterans and established talents.

They added other players who have NHL experience as well.

How much roster turnover should there have been?

What if the Devils had signed Palmieri and Coleman to be their veterans? The Devils would be cap strung for years and not have won much more. Those would be players hurting you more and more each year but you’d have more established talent.

 

[Devils731]

I have a hard time believing that Conte and company would have done significantly worse.

New Jersey Devils Draft History at hockeydb.com

You should check this out. Conte had about a decade of drafting next to nothing at the NHL level before leaving. It’s nuts how bad it was; he rarely even got lucky.

 

[My3Sons]

Shhh everyone knows that if you just draft a bunch of kids that are hyped up by pundits they will definitely turn out to be great players and there’s no need to surround them with already established talent.

It's not that simple to me. As noted, they've brought in some vets. The problem is they haven't brought in mean enough vets. They need a forward who every shift in the offensive end stands with his butt in the goalie's face and then pushes back hard when the defender comes over to push him. They need a forward to skate hard to the net every shift and at times take out the goalie as an incidental part of the play. Vets like Tatar are established but more of the same of what the team already has. Hamilton is very good but soft. Graves is inconsistent. At times he hits guys and at times he doesn't. Subban can't skate well enough to really play physically anymore. Bringing in established vets who are undersized and want to dipsy doodle with the puck isn't the answer, but finding a Mark Messier type isn't easy.

 

[Lou is God]

This is the thing I don’t get with the “things are so much better than before and it’s due to better drafting!” crowd. I don’t think the drafting has been much better…the real difference is that we got the luxury of higher picks for several consecutive years, for the first time in decades. The result of that luxury has been a first overall that’s more on the level of a later first round pick, another first overall with some promise of being a ppg player but far from proving he’s a legit game breaker, a sixth rounder who’s basically the only prospect that has surpassed expectations, a bunch of first rounders who have not lived up to expectations and/or appear to be busts, and a bunch of others who show some promise of being average but are clearly nothing special.

I have a hard time believing that Conte and company would have done significantly worse.

Conte and his scouts were a horror show for about a 15-year period when it came to drafting Euro players, in 1995 we drafted Petr Sykora and the next successful Euro pick was probably Larsson in 2011, in between those two players Conte and Co (including Lou) missed on 38 consecutive Euro selections including four first rounders and 10 second rounders, they went 0-14 in the first two rounds with Euro players in that time period. Think about that.

Yeah, I think one can confidently say the drafting has been MUCH better under Shero and Fitz then it was under Lou and Conte.

 

[guitarguyvic]

The Devils signed Hamilton, Tatar, and Bernier; those are all good veterans and established talents.

They added other players who have NHL experience as well.

How much roster turnover should there have been?

What if the Devils had signed Palmieri and Coleman to be their veterans? The Devils would be cap strung for years and not have won much more. Those would be players hurting you more and more each year but you’d have more established talent.

Three players is not enough, especially when only two of them are skaters and one of those two is someone whose recent play on other teams was questionable (scratched in the playoffs). And what about before this year?

Hamilton was a great add. We need more like that. Obviously first line players are not always going to be readily available or sign here. But there absolutely has to be more of an effort to get truly proven talent to supplement the top 6. And talent that compliments existing players and balances the team’s style. Tatar for example is another soft forward who plays a small game. The epitome of settling for whoever was left in the scrap heap.

 

[NjDevsRR]

Again, the difference between 2015-2019 and 2020-22 is night and day. We were not in any position to make moves to completely alter the look of the team from 15-19. Now we are in that position. We can afford to move out certain young players, prospects and draft picks for upgrades and look at free agency. In the last year we obtained Siegs, Graves, Hamilton, Tatar and Bernier. What will the next year or two look like? Who knows because we have the ability to make many upgrades now because we finally have equity to work with.

The amount of you on here that completely ignore this fact is amazing.