Devils 2019 offseason team discussion (news and notes) XI

[OmNomNom]

nice to see ty smith has a roster #

interesting that dougie weights son is trying out w us

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Marner is not one of the best defensive wingers in the NHL, nor is he even close. That's where the hyperbole ends. He doesn't suppress shots against. Granted playing with Tavares doesn't help in that regard, but I don't see him as good defensively really at all, nor does his offense make up for his defense (as with someone like Taylor Hall).

The equation for a mid to late 1st rounder isn't to be as good as Marner, it's to be as valuable as Marner, and this is a much lower bar to clear when you consider Marner's salary.

He got several Selke votes and is seen by at least some experts as an elite defensive forward.

Mitch Marner - Selke Trophy Candidate? - The Point Data-driven hockey storytelling that gets right to the point.

Mitch Marner: As good without the puck as he is with it - The Point Data-driven hockey storytelling that gets right to the point.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Yes, I'm sure. The exception is when multiple picks are involved (I.e. 2 1sts, 4 1sts, etc) where you can use them over 5 years.

Okay.

Then it makes even less sense to me that there's speculation on this.

 

[Triumph]

He got several Selke votes and is seen by at least some experts as an elite defensive forward.

Mitch Marner - Selke Trophy Candidate? - The Point Data-driven hockey storytelling that gets right to the point.

Mitch Marner: As good without the puck as he is with it - The Point Data-driven hockey storytelling that gets right to the point.

I don't care about Selke votes. Also don't trust Mike Kelly's stuff and would not call him an expert. It wouldn't surprise me if he got better in this area but indications are that he's not there yet.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

I don't care about Selke votes. Also don't trust Mike Kelly's stuff and would not call him an expert. It wouldn't surprise me if he got better in this area but indications are that he's not there yet.

I trust Mike Kelly a lot more than you...

 

[captainscott]

I am a couple weeks away from wanting Shero to start taking offers for Hall.

 

[RangerDoggo]

1. Getting Marner for the price he wants, as well as the short term he wants, is lunacy.
2. There are other RFAs to offer sheet, but we don't have the second round pick to try and lure them.

We're better off with a signing or a trade to fill that need on the wing.

 

[Triumph]

I trust Mike Kelly a lot more than you...

Feel free to. He's shown he's willing to sell snake oil and if you want to buy that, that's your prerogative. These pieces, I have no opinion about one way or the other.

 

[Devs4L]

Look, if you don't think Marner is worth the price or you think that it just doesn't make sense for the Devils, that's fine. No one is trying to convince you or force you to think otherwise. But to downplay the player and make it like he's anything except one of the great young hockey players in the game is insane.

Really makes you wonder how much some have watched him or are just going by "the numbers". And he IS considered a fine defensive player. That's not the opinion of the minority, but of many.

The thing is, Pittsburgh just finished going four consecutive years without a 1st round pick because they were in win now mode. These picks going for players like Perron, Reaves, and Brassard. They traded away another first round pick in Kapanen. Shero traded his 1st rounder twice within 5 years while in Pittsburgh during the years they were trying to win.

If you don't think the same sort of trend is a possibility here while this team is trying to win, you're dreaming. I just hope we have a Mitch Marner to show for those trades. The Penguins currently don't.

 

[RangerDoggo]

Toronto media is a disease.

 

[None Shall Pass]

The thing is, Pittsburgh just finished going four consecutive years without a 1st round pick because they were in win now mode. These picks going for players like Perron, Reaves, and Brassard. They traded away another first round pick in Kapanen. Shero traded his 1st rounder twice within 5 years while in Pittsburgh during the years they were trying to win.

If you don't think the same sort of trend is a possibility here while this team is trying to win, you're dreaming. I just hope we have a Mitch Marner to show for those trades. The Penguins currently don't.

The big difference here is that Pittsburgh was making the playoffs consistently while trading those picks; they were already winning and trying to win more. Those were destined to be low picks. We missed them this past season, and made them the season before for the first time in five or six seasons by the skin of our teeth.

Trading next year's first? Maybe. Trading four of them? Not yet.

Marner is an incredible player, but that's a lot to give up for anyone - let alone a guy who is rumored to be dying to hit UFA status sooner rather than later.

 

[MadDevil]

Sorry if this was posted already...

 

[Triumph]

Look, if you don't think Marner is worth the price or you think that it just doesn't make sense for the Devils, that's fine. No one is trying to convince you or force you to think otherwise. But to downplay the player and make it like he's anything except one of the great young hockey players in the game is insane.

Really makes you wonder how much some have watched him or are just going by "the numbers". And he IS considered a fine defensive player. That's not the opinion of the minority, but of many.

The thing is, Pittsburgh just finished going four consecutive years without a 1st round pick because they were in win now mode. These picks going for players like Perron, Reaves, and Brassard. They traded away another first round pick in Kapanen. Shero traded his 1st rounder twice within 5 years while in Pittsburgh during the years they were trying to win.

If you don't think the same sort of trend is a possibility here while this team is trying to win, you're dreaming. I just hope we have a Mitch Marner to show for those trades. The Penguins currently don't.

Some of you guys should just get used to the fact that I don't care what 'experts' around the NHL think. I don't care what the 'majority' opinion about a player is. I watch a lot of hockey, certainly more than most of the 'experts', and I form my own judgments.

Some of you should also try reading better. I have stated that Marner is a great forward. I named 3 guys that I think are better and claimed that I could think of more, but it's certainly not a long list. He's a great player. Is he great defensively, no, not yet. He could be, though.

As for Pittsburgh, while they've made plenty of dumb moves, you can't just say 'oh, they have nothing to show for their 1st round picks' - first off, they have 2 Stanley Cup championships over that time, and second, they have cap space that isn't being taken up by Mitch Marner. That's the problem I have with the offer sheet. It's one thing to trade 4 1st round picks for Marner signed at a reasonable price, it's quite another to sign him at an unreasonable price.

 

[kiwidevil]

Yeah, the short term he wants really kills the value.
The compensation picks should also take into account term somehow.

 

[Devs4L]

The big difference here is that Pittsburgh was making the playoffs consistently while trading those picks; they were already winning and trying to win more. Those were destined to be low picks. We missed them this past season, and made them the season before for the first time in five or six seasons by the skin of our teeth.

Trading next year's first? Maybe. Trading four of them? Not yet.

Marner is an incredible player, but that's a lot to give up for anyone - let alone a guy who is rumored to be dying to hit UFA status sooner rather than later.

No question it's a lot to give up. But for incredible players, there's a reason it requires a lot.

The point is I'd much rather secure a 22 year old superstar like Marner, than trade an abundance of 1st round picks at the deadline and look back and have no roster players or 1st round prospects to show for it.

This is not last season or the season before. There's every reason to believe that with a healthy Hall, and adding Hughes, Subban, Simmonds, Marner, better goaltending (hopefully), and development of young players, that this team would not be picking anywhere close to where we've picked at times in the last few years.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Sorry if this was posted already...

I haven’t seen people this fired up about an unknown commodity since Jimmy Vesey

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Some of you guys should just get used to the fact that I don't care what 'experts' around the NHL think. I don't care what the 'majority' opinion about a player is. I watch a lot of hockey, certainly more than most of the 'experts', and I form my own judgments.

Some of you should also try reading better. I have stated that Marner is a great forward. I named 3 guys that I think are better and claimed that I could think of more, but it's certainly not a long list. He's a great player. Is he great defensively, no, not yet. He could be, though.

As for Pittsburgh, while they've made plenty of dumb moves, you can't just say 'oh, they have nothing to show for their 1st round picks' - first off, they have 2 Stanley Cup championships over that time, and second, they have cap space that isn't being taken up by Mitch Marner. That's the problem I have with the offer sheet. It's one thing to trade 4 1st round picks for Marner signed at a reasonable price, it's quite another to sign him at an unreasonable price.

I also watch a ton of hockey and think Marner is worth 10.5+ and is a great defensive forward. I dont agree with all experts either but if experts and my eyeballs agree on something I will defend that point of view. You just saying he's not worth that much and he's not a good defensive winger because you watch a lot of hockey and dont care what people who cover the game for a living say isnt a great basis for an argument.

 

[Jack Be Quick]

The big difference here is that Pittsburgh was making the playoffs consistently while trading those picks; they were already winning and trying to win more. Those were destined to be low picks. We missed them this past season, and made them the season before for the first time in five or six seasons by the skin of our teeth.

Trading next year's first? Maybe. Trading four of them? Not yet.

Marner is an incredible player, but that's a lot to give up for anyone - let alone a guy who is rumored to be dying to hit UFA status sooner rather than later.

Starting this season the Devils will be making the playoffs consistently. I'd bet the farm on it.

 

[Triumph]

I also watch a ton of hockey and think Marner is worth 10.5+ and is a great defensive forward. I dont agree with all experts either but if experts and my eyeballs agree on something I will defend that point of view. You just saying he's not worth that much and he's not a good defensive winger because you watch a lot of hockey and dont care what people who cover the game for a living say isnt a great basis for an argument.

People who cover the game for a living know even less. They're too busy covering the game to form reasonable opinions on players - they get their opinions from GMs and scouts, some of whom know things and some who do not.

Marner doesn't demonstrate that he suppresses the opposition's shots when he's on the ice. The Leafs get slightly more shots for and against when Marner's on the ice. Now I grant Tavares is also not good defensively and that can't help, but players who are great defensively are usually able to suppress the opposition's shots. Not so for Marner.

 

[RangerDoggo]

If you're trying to make a case for why Ray Shero should offer sheet Mitch Marner, here's a tip: don't use his previous tenure as Pens GM to boost your argument. He was canned from that job for a very good reason, and so far it's safe to say that he's learned from it.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

If you're trying to make a case for why Ray Shero should offer sheet Mitch Marner, here's a tip: don't use his previous tenure as Pens GM to boost your argument. He was canned from that job for a very good reason, and so far it's safe to say that he's learned from it.

So they could give long term contracts at decent AAVs to Jack Johnson and Brandon Tanev?

 

[Devs4L]

Some of you guys should just get used to the fact that I don't care what 'experts' around the NHL think. I don't care what the 'majority' opinion about a player is. I watch a lot of hockey, certainly more than most of the 'experts', and I form my own judgments.

Some of you should also try reading better. I have stated that Marner is a great forward. I named 3 guys that I think are better and claimed that I could think of more, but it's certainly not a long list. He's a great player. Is he great defensively, no, not yet. He could be, though.

As for Pittsburgh, while they've made plenty of dumb moves, you can't just say 'oh, they have nothing to show for their 1st round picks' - first off, they have 2 Stanley Cup championships over that time, and second, they have cap space that isn't being taken up by Mitch Marner. That's the problem I have with the offer sheet. It's one thing to trade 4 1st round picks for Marner signed at a reasonable price, it's quite another to sign him at an unreasonable price.

Saying that trading those 1st round picks was worth it because it helped them win a Cup only supports the point that Marner, in value, should be worth the 1st round picks. You know that when Pittsburgh traded those 1st round picks they had no guarantee of a Cup, right?

The thinking was that dealing those picks - which they had no problem doing in 4 consecutive years (6 if you count trading their 2014 1st rounder in Kapanen and that they also had no 1st rounder in 2013) - was worth it, because it would bring in value to push them toward contention.

 

[Devs4L]

If you're trying to make a case for why Ray Shero should offer sheet Mitch Marner, here's a tip: don't use his previous tenure as Pens GM to boost your argument. He was canned from that job for a very good reason, and so far it's safe to say that he's learned from it.

Or it means that we're not sure what he'll do yet since the Devils haven't been in win-now mode the last few years. Unless you firmly believe he's learned, and has now sworn off ever trading a 1st at the deadline again.

I wonder when Jim Rutherford will wise up since he traded 5 of those 1st round picks I referenced.

 

[Triumph]

Saying that trading those 1st round picks was worth it because it helped them win a Cup only supports the point that Marner, in value, should be worth the 1st round picks. You know that when Pittsburgh traded those 1st round picks they had no guarantee of a Cup, right?

The thinking was that dealing those picks - which they had no problem doing in 4 consecutive years (6 if you count trading their 2014 1st rounder in Kapanen and that they also had no 1st rounder in 2013) - was worth it, because it would bring in value to push them toward contention.

They actually did have a guarantee of a Cup in 2017 when they traded the pick for Ryan Reaves because they were picking 31st because they'd won the Stanley Cup the season before.

The Penguins were in a completely different spot from the Devils. The Penguins are on the way down. Their Hall of Fame stars are over 30 and both are signed to long-term contracts. Their future doesn't matter a great deal because it's not going to be good. Moreover, they probably had no real ability to sign an offer sheet for anyone post Phil Kessel trade because they didn't have the cap space.

The Devils aren't in this position - they are still on the way up. Their stars are not signed yet to long-term contracts. Signing an offer sheet may well increase the demands of the players they already have.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

They actually did have a guarantee of a Cup in 2017 when they traded the pick for Ryan Reaves because they were picking 31st because they'd won the Stanley Cup the season before.

The Penguins were in a completely different spot from the Devils. The Penguins are on the way down. Their Hall of Fame stars are over 30 and both are signed to long-term contracts. Their future doesn't matter a great deal because it's not going to be good. Moreover, they probably had no real ability to sign an offer sheet for anyone post Phil Kessel trade because they didn't have the cap space.

The Devils aren't in this position - they are still on the way up. Their stars are not signed yet to long-term contracts. Signing an offer sheet may well increase the demands of the players they already have.

That would be my biggest fear of doing an offer sheet. All of the sudden Hall and Nico may want more than what they were originally thinking. Or maybe that doesnt affect anything too, but its a big factor.