Devils 2018-19 team discussion (news and notes) - part IX

[Bleedred]

I vaguely remember the conversation around that but I’m almost certain it was started by a rumor/headline/article somewhere else

After going back and searching for the conversation on here, this was all started by none other than Eklund.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Not premature at all. A poor skater will always be a poor skater.

I have never seen a poor skater become even an adequate one. It typically gets worse over time not better... I also don't know of too many 5'10 180 lbs poor skaters with long NHL careers...those are fixed variables that aren't changing.

Those things aren't a matter of experience.

Sami Vatanen is 5–10 185 and a pretty crappy skater and he has been a top 4 defenseman his whole career.

 

[Triumph]

Not premature at all. A poor skater will always be a poor skater.

I have never seen a poor skater become even an adequate one. It typically gets worse over time not better... I also don't know of too many 5'10 180 lbs poor skaters with long NHL careers...those are fixed variables that aren't changing.

Those things aren't a matter of experience.

I don't care what kind of skills a player has. Butcher gets results. You say he's a poor skater, fine. He's taken 4 minor penalties in his career. If he's caught out of position, he's not taking penalties for being so. Have I seen him beat wide? Yes. Often? No. He's a very smart player. I think he can handle a little more responsibility.

 

[captainscott]

Sami Vatanen is 5–10 185 and a pretty crappy skater and he has been a top 4 defenseman his whole career.

if you think bateman and butcher are in the same skater.. category than i do not know what to say ...

 

[NjDevsRR]

Sami Vatanen is 5–10 185 and a pretty crappy skater and he has been a top 4 defenseman his whole career.

Vatanen has a choppy style of skating but he can accelerate. I like Butcher but he skates through mud, his first few strides are atrocious. He has excellent edgework though.

 

[MichaelJ]

After going back and searching for the conversation on here, this was all started by none other than Eklund.

Oh well then nevermind lol.

Thanks for checking it out.

 

[Jets012]

I'm with the trade Butcher camp. Trade Severson & trade Wood too. None of those three are going to be as good as people currently believe they can/will be in my opinion.

Yup, let's just get rid of our only good defenseman. Then when we get outshot by 20 shots each game, finish bottom 3 in the standings, but actually block more shots, you'll suggest the defense is actually playing better.

 

[Cage Helmet]

Oh, so now we care about poor skaters on the defense? It didn’t seem to be an issue here when everyone was gushing over Adam Larsson. What about when we were icing a D of Volchenkov, Salvador, Larsson or 4 or 5 slow plods at a time back in the mid and late 00’s? White, Mottau, Salvador all on the same defense. McGillis, Malakhov, Klee, Matvichuk, White, Hale and Albelin were real fun and a pleasure to watch in 2005-2006. None of the D from that year could skate outside of Rafalski and Martin. Will anyone dare to say that Butcher is worse than any of those guys? Butcher has plenty of tools to make up for his poor skating.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

I want Butcher to get top 4 minutes but our D is so misfit at the moment.

Pair Butcher with Severson? I can't trust Severson to be reliable on his own end.

Pair Butcher with Vatanen? The pairing would be too small and get overpowered often by bigger forwards.

Pair Butcher with Mueller? It would mean that one of Mueller or Butcher is playing out of his position on the right side. Might be worth a try but it would probably screw up the other pairings. Vatanen would get demoted to 3rd pair, assuming we want to keep Greene-Severson together.

Pair Butcher with Santini? Question marks exist if Santini can handle a top 4 role. He didnt cope well last year.

 

[Cage Helmet]

Yup, let's just get rid of our only good defenseman. Then when we get outshot by 20 shots each game, finish bottom 3 in the standings, but actually block more shots, you'll suggest the defense is actually playing better.

What this team really needs more of is Steven Santini. I want more defenders like that! Larsson, Santini, Merrill. We could have had a really sweet defense over on the NJD if Shero would have just exposed Severson to the expansion draft, never traded Larsson, and never signed Butcher and gave that spot to Steven Santini. Schneids wouldn’t have turned into the second coming of Dan Cloutier, either!

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

This is what I think what we should do with our D.

Trade Greene & Lovejoy at trade deadline. (Get 2nd & 3rd round picks)
Sign Jake Gardiner as an UFA.
Promote Ty Smith.
Re-sign Yakovlev 1 year deal (as 7th/8th D depth)

Gardiner-Vatanen
Smith-Severson
Butcher-Mueller
Yakovlev-Santini

 

[MadDevil]

I want Butcher to get top 4 minutes but our D is so misfit at the moment.

Pair Butcher with Severson? I can't trust Severson to be reliable on his own end.

Pair Butcher with Vatanen? The pairing would be too small and get overpowered often by bigger forwards.

Pair Butcher with Mueller? It would mean that one of Mueller or Butcher is playing out of his position on the right side. Might be worth a try but it would probably screw up the other pairings. Vatanen would get demoted to 3rd pair, assuming we want to keep Greene-Severson together.

Pair Butcher with Santini? Question marks exist if Santini can handle a top 4 role. He didnt cope well last year.

Completely fair and valid points. I don't think Butcher should be playing 20 minutes a night or anything, but I don't think it would kill us to give him a couple of Greene's and/or Mueller's (when he's playing anyway) shifts at even strength.

Although now that I look at his ice time he is averaging 2 more minutes per game this year compared to last year, so maybe he's playing the right amount after all.

I think some people prefer "safe" types that bring zero offense to riskier offensive defensemen with some deficiencies, which is fine. I just don't think those types are as useful in today's game as they once were. Or they're at least as limited as the third pairing/PP guy, just in a different way.

 

[Bleedred]

Yup, let's just get rid of our only good defenseman. Then when we get outshot by 20 shots each game, finish bottom 3 in the standings, but actually block more shots, you'll suggest the defense is actually playing better.

I've been saying for years, you NEED guys to block shots, but you don't need guys who can do nothing but shot block or a guy's best asset being shot blocking. When a player is nothing but a ''Shot blocking machine'' it's usually indicative of a player who spends nothing but time in the D-zone, defending all game long because they don't have either the skills or the skating to get the puck out of their end, or at least not without icing it. This is something I've been preaching since the 90's. Long before corsi or advanced stats told us this kind of defenseman is not good.

This is why Dan Girardi and Brooks Orpik have made careers out of fooling GM's and even many fans into thinking they're good players. It's also helped them and their reputation that they've been on good teams while doing so. So when looking at career highlights, Brooks Orpik looks like this shot blocking machine and warrior, who was an integral part in winning two Stanley Cups on two different organizations.

 

[Bleedred]

This is what I think what we should do with our D.

Trade Greene & Lovejoy at trade deadline. (Get 2nd & 3rd round picks)
Sign Jake Gardiner as an UFA.
Promote Ty Smith.
Re-sign Yakovlev 1 year deal (as 7th/8th D depth)

Gardiner-Vatanen
Smith-Severson
Butcher-Mueller
Yakovlev-Santini

I like Jake Gardiner, but we don't really need him at this point.

Don't think anyone wants Greene with a year left on his deal. Maybe Lovejoy though.

 

[Bleedred]

Oh, so now we care about poor skaters on the defense? It didn’t seem to be an issue here when everyone was gushing over Adam Larsson. What about when we were icing a D of Volchenkov, Salvador, Larsson or 4 or 5 slow plods at a time back in the mid and late 00’s? White, Mottau, Salvador all on the same defense. McGillis, Malakhov, Klee, Matvichuk, White, Hale and Albelin were real fun and a pleasure to watch in 2005-2006. None of the D from that year could skate outside of Rafalski and Martin. Will anyone dare to say that Butcher is worse than any of those guys? Butcher has plenty of tools to make up for his poor skating.

I remember when Oduya was like our best skater on D. Especially after Rafalski left. Oduya was a real racer at the time too. That's how slow that defense was.

 

[MadDevil]

Lovejoy has the "Cup experience" factor going for him and would be a rental, so we might be able to get something for him. Greene isn't going anywhere though. Best case scenario we add another top 4 D this summer and push him down to the Lovejoy role.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Adam Larsson can’t skate at all, dude. What the **** were you watching? He could never skate. And you call me the dink? Typical of NJD fans to overrate this very ordinary defender.

Larsson could lap butcher in a race buddy, I’m not saying he’s erik Karlsson but he is a good skater.

 

[MadDevil]

Apparently somebody has forgotten the Adam Larsson that was getting burned because of his skating and poor reads. He's gotten much better at it with experience. I'm not saying Butcher will improve that much, but I think he does relatively well for himself given his size and speed (although I would argue it's really more his slow first couple steps that are the problem) disadvantage.

 

[Scooooooooooooot]

Apparently somebody has forgotten the Adam Larsson that was getting burned because of his skating and poor reads. He's gotten much better at it with experience. I'm not saying Butcher will improve that much, but I think he does relatively well for himself given his size and speed (although I would argue it's really more his slow first couple steps that are the problem) disadvantage.

It’s pretty rare for D men to have a quick burst usually going from skating backwards to forwards on a pivot. Only very gifted skaters can pivot without losing much speed and butcher struggles with that. My issue with butchers skating is that it won’t likely get much better, we aren’t talking about a big defenseman who even when they get beat can make up for it with size and strength. Or even a quick smaller D man, butcher unfortunately is one of the smallest D men in the league and is also not a great transitional skater or good in short bursts at all. I don’t really see that inproving a ton since physically he doesn’t have much to work with and his skating technique is what it is at this point.

 

[Jets012]

We spend too much time talking about Larsson. On a team that needs defenseman, he would hardly help. He'd be an upgrade over Lovejoy on the PK and 3rd line. That would be it though.

Always has been overrated. Nice guy, tries hard, but the definition of a mediocre player. The fact we got Hall for him is the most insane thing ever

 

[Jets012]

And yes Butcher is a way better play than Larsson. Even if you just handicap him to the 3rd line he helps a team much more than Adam Larsson. In before some people say Larsson "passes the eye test" unlike Butcher.

 

[Jets012]

There is a GM in Arizona who thinks just like Todd does.

Yea as well as every other team in the league including ours who is paying big money on larger and larger analytics departments each and every year.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I think Butcher has proven that, in a certain role, he can be very effective. Whether or not he can do more I don't know but in a certain role he is good.

He's a guy I'd be in no rush to trade, except, the role he is so good in, is pretty much the exact role I expect Smith will be playing next year and probably the year beyond.

I dont disagree with any of that.

In fact, of the three players I mentioned (Butcher, Severson & Wood), Butcher would be the one I'm probably most at-risk of being wrong about. Still, I dont think I am, so trade him would be my choice. The thing with a Will Butcher is, he needs to play as the #6 on a VERY good defensive team than can both shield him and afford the luxury of starting a guy solely as a PP quarterback, which Butcher is quite good at.

Yup, let's just get rid of our only good defenseman.

Neither Butcher, nor Severson, are very good at defense.

 

[Bleedred]

Adam Larsson is 6’4 and can skate well you dink. Will butcher is the slowest player on the team by a significant margin.

If you're gonna defend Larsson, this is one area where even his biggest defenders have acknowledged was his weakness. If skate well to you means ''He doesn't fall down all the time like David Clarkson'', then I guess he does ''Skate well'', but he's never been quick or a particularly well skater. Many have also acknowledged that this is one of the things that kept him from being elite. That he doesn't skate well.

 

[Jets012]

Pretty damn good list of players Will Butcher is up there with in terms of Goals Above Replacement. But yea, we should definitely get rid of him because he's one of the few people that actually succeeds in his role.