Yeah bud, Tampa was nothing until JBB came over and completely transformed them.
Detroit Redwings Downfall
- Thread starter Dbarthnek96
- Start date
Yeah bud, Tampa was nothing until JBB came over and completely transformed them.
Bank Shot
Registered User
- Jan 18, 2006
- 11,739
- 7,545
And it counts for what?
I remember when Matha, and Frk, and Veleno, and Smith, and on and on were all the next big thing. Nyquist was the next Zetterberg. The system is always stacked in Detroit.
It never seems to pan out as advertised though.
The Wings have a lot of prospects, but I dont see any that look like franchise altering players.
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.
If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.
For example:
- Aho (2nd round)
- Hintz (2nd round)
- Suzuki (13th overall)
- Thomas (20th overall)
- Zibanejad (6th overall)
- Larkin (15th overall)
- JT Miller (15th)
- Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
- Point (3rd round)
That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.
Oneiro
Registered User
- Mar 28, 2013
- 9,939
- 12,134
I think it's more that their young players are growing in fits and spurts, at different paces all over the lineup and the only consistent guys around them are Larkin and DeBrincat.
It's not pretty but they really remind me of Chicago's base before Kane and Toews. I think accumulating a lot of these quality depth guys and easing Larkin and Cat to lesser roles over time will pay off when they get 2 lights out stars up front to add to Raymond. And maybe MBN or someone like that will surprise.
I don't think it's nearly as dire as people make it out to be. I just think their veteran depth is identity-less, soft and not all too complementary inside of a growth process. And they need those truly elite, top 25 player in the game forwards.
As a hypothetical, if McDavid hit UFA and signed there, I think a cup would be inevitable with what's coming from the pipeline.
It's not pretty but they really remind me of Chicago's base before Kane and Toews. I think accumulating a lot of these quality depth guys and easing Larkin and Cat to lesser roles over time will pay off when they get 2 lights out stars up front to add to Raymond. And maybe MBN or someone like that will surprise.
I don't think it's nearly as dire as people make it out to be. I just think their veteran depth is identity-less, soft and not all too complementary inside of a growth process. And they need those truly elite, top 25 player in the game forwards.
As a hypothetical, if McDavid hit UFA and signed there, I think a cup would be inevitable with what's coming from the pipeline.
Stive Morgan
"That Guy"
That's how I've felt, too. Yzerman has made the right moves in my eyes. All I really see is bad luck. I think a weak 2018 Draft really screwed up a lot of teams' rebuilds (namely Detroit and Montreal)
Michael Brand Eggs
Knee Guard
Didn’t read, lol.
Again, if you're going to actually attempt to have a discussion, you might want to start by demonstrating a better grasp of basic grammatical skills.
I’m not combing through another jumbled mess that looks like it was written by an Yzerman fanboy 24 Miller Lites deep.
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Peasy
Registered User
Youre lookin at the wrong Elias Pettersson. The C was taken 5th overall.Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.
If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.
For example:
- Aho (2nd round)
- Hintz (2nd round)
- Suzuki (13th overall)
- Thomas (20th overall)
- Zibanejad (6th overall)
- Larkin (15th overall)
- JT Miller (15th)
- Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
- Point (3rd round)
That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.
Negan4Coach
Fantastic and Stochastic
matt trick
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2007
- 10,135
- 2,116
Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.
If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.
For example:
- Aho (2nd round)
- Hintz (2nd round)
- Suzuki (13th overall)
- Thomas (20th overall)
- Zibanejad (6th overall)
- Larkin (15th overall)
- JT Miller (15th)
- Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
- Point (3rd round)
That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.
Not saying you can’t get a good center outside the top 3-my sharks got 1b guys in Couture and Hertl outside the top 5, but an elite center?
If I wanted to win a cup in the next 5-10 years, here’s the centers I’d want:
1st overall: McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Hughes, Hischier, Bedard, Celebrini
2nd overall: Barkov, Carlsson, Eichel
3rd overall: Fantilli, Stuzle
Everyone else: Petterson (5th overall), Aho (2nd round), Point (3rd round, for the next couple years), and of course, if you count him Draisaitl (4th). Hintz, Suzuki, Thomas, may end up better than a few of the young guys, but more than 2/3rds the league’s premier centers come from 1/2 overall. If you go back 20 years you’ll find Getzlaf, Bergeron, Backstrom, and Kopitar as franchise centers outside the top 3, but then you’ve also got Thornton, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Toews in the top 3.
Franchise dmen are similar but not quite to the degree- the #1 dmen drafted top 4 (didn’t want to exclude Makar) are Dahlin, Hedman, Doughty, Pietro, Heiskanen, and Makar. Half of those six still have good years ahead, but are aging out. Seider, Sanderson, Hughes, Dobson, Werenski, and Bouchard were high draft picks, but not the coveted top 4. Fox, Slavin, Forsling, Josi, Morrisey, McAvoy, Theodore, Faber, Anderson, and the aged out Karlsson, Burns, Letang, and Karlsson were drafted outside the tank zone.
If you have a franchise C and a franchise D/G you’re in business as long as the GM does a half decent job of surrounding those two with good talent. Detroit may be able to thrive with a Larkin-Danielson-Kaspar provided their young D and goalies perform well, but I’d argue nothing drives team success like a premier center, as much as I love Seider.
You can’t just say, no franchise center, blow it up, we give up, time to tank, but damn it’s tough to win without one.
It’s remarkable that yzerman has chosen a slow, methodical, long term approach and yet this thread and others like it are filled with jabronis criticizing the short term results.
And yet despite that disconnect, over the short term, Yzerman has literally improved the team every single season up to this point. They had as many points as a playoff team last year and unfortunately lost out on a tie breaker. They were An empty net goal away from the playoffs.
It would seem that many people want yzerman to fail for whatever reason. Whatever the reason, continuous, year over year improvement while building a deep pipeline of prospects is the opposite of failure.
I see some similarities to the lions tbh. Holmes and Campbell went something like 4-18-1 over their first 23 games. They ignored the haters and stuck to their vision and now are a god damn wagon.
Football turns over faster than hockey so yzerman’s project is a slower burn but he’s absolutely on the right track.
And yet despite that disconnect, over the short term, Yzerman has literally improved the team every single season up to this point. They had as many points as a playoff team last year and unfortunately lost out on a tie breaker. They were An empty net goal away from the playoffs.
It would seem that many people want yzerman to fail for whatever reason. Whatever the reason, continuous, year over year improvement while building a deep pipeline of prospects is the opposite of failure.
I see some similarities to the lions tbh. Holmes and Campbell went something like 4-18-1 over their first 23 games. They ignored the haters and stuck to their vision and now are a god damn wagon.
Football turns over faster than hockey so yzerman’s project is a slower burn but he’s absolutely on the right track.
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That’s not why people are being critical. Most teams try to do a slow methodical rebuild, but a decent part of a successful rebuild involves building a core that includes a franchise or better 1C, 1D, and Goalie and the surrounding them with high quality talent that fits with the other players.
No one hates Stevie Y, but this iteration idle going to struggle because it lacks a franchise 1C and it lacks a Goalie.
Prospects fail all the time or even prospects don’t live up to expectations.
So while SY drafted well he was unlucky in the sense that idle some of those drafts the good draft was a good player but not franchise or even high end player.
It also doesn’t help when you jettison a Jake Walman and 2nd round pick and Walman has 17pts in 21 games is a +7 and has a CF Rel of 8.1. This is still one of the most mystifying trades of the 10-15 years.
Sentinel
Registered User
Literally NOBODY wants Yzerman to fail. But we want our team to make playoffs and become competitive again. "Slow, methodical, and long term" has an expiration date. And his steadfast refusal to fire underperforming coaches is particularly infuriating.
Lalonde, the Walman trade and not adding a single piece at the deadline knowing Larkin was out for a while were major blunders.
One can be fixed at any moment but for some reason he refuses to do it. I can’t comprehend why
Our Lady Peace
Registered User
Agree with you post and you're right about your final point, it's damn tough to win without an elite #1C. Detroit got screwed in the lottery when they officially bottomed out, and that year was where they could've drafted Stutzle and been set there
The question begs - does it come down to the luck of the draw on the "bottoming out" years to draft a elite #1C that only might be available in the top 3?
I do think that you have to have the perfect storm if you're going to be Boston/St. Louis/Vegas winning the cup. The following I think are part of the recipe:
Coaching (all-situations)
Selke-esque play from #1C
A brute #1D
A hot goalie previously capable of play as at least a 1A starter
A complete lineup full of depth that wins matchups (can usually be coached into a lot of guys)
The reality of Detroit losing spots in half the lotteries since 2017 when they were in the top 10 sucks and we've all accepted that
At this point, the drafting has shown great returns for those in the NHL thus far. The remaining top picks are looking up as well. Since these players need more time to develop than top 3 picks usually need, well have to wait and see if they're worth their draft spots. Detroit's cup window may not be for another 5-6 years if at that
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 26,455
- 13,741
Yep Ottawa fell in every lottery as well, during the rebuild. Fell from 1 to 4 one year, like Detroit.
Also fell during the Stutzle year, That bumped Ottawa’s from second to fifth. Luckily they had SJ’s pick.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
Can you write a list of franchise altering players? How many exist? Do all good teams have one?
And sure, Marty Frk hype was the same thing as excitement about Simon Edvinsson, Lucas Raymond and Nate Danielson. Sure. Extremely shrewd analysis.
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