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Detroit Redwings Downfall

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matt trick said:
I mean, there’s definitely fire. 22:30 a night and on pace for 50+ points and a positive player…on the sharks!
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Yeah he had games on Wings where he did look good. And Wings certainly could have used that goodness of Jake Walman to make the playoffs. Instead they end up missing the playoffs by 0 points - Walman could have been useful!

Why were the Wings/Coach so intent on healthy scratching him? One rumor I read was Larkin and the team wanted him out. Apparently not in good standing in the locker room. But that is just one rumor.

Yzerman traded a cap dump to the Blues in exchange for a 2nd, 4th and Jake Walman. Even the Blues didn't want him and threw him in the deal... and gave up a TON to get rid of him. Wonder why that is?

And finally, Grier took a 2nd to accept him.

Maybe (hopefully) Walman realizes he's not very popular around the league and is trying to do better? But then Sharks go and healthy scratch him... just as Wings did before exiling him off the team in a swift and bold fashion.

I've always like Walman on the surface (what we as fans get to see), but I do have questions what his hitch is. I hope he does well. His time in Detroit was done. He wore out his welcome for whatever reason. Same as with the Blues..., let's see what Sharks end up doing with him.
 
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matt trick said:
Not saying you can’t get a good center outside the top 3-my sharks got 1b guys in Couture and Hertl outside the top 5, but an elite center?

If I wanted to win a cup in the next 5-10 years, here’s the centers I’d want:

1st overall: McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Hughes, Hischier, Bedard, Celebrini
2nd overall: Barkov, Carlsson, Eichel
3rd overall: Fantilli, Stuzle

Everyone else: Petterson (5th overall), Aho (2nd round), Point (3rd round, for the next couple years), and of course, if you count him Draisaitl (4th). Hintz, Suzuki, Thomas, may end up better than a few of the young guys, but more than 2/3rds the league’s premier centers come from 1/2 overall. If you go back 20 years you’ll find Getzlaf, Bergeron, Backstrom, and Kopitar as franchise centers outside the top 3, but then you’ve also got Thornton, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Toews in the top 3.

Franchise dmen are similar but not quite to the degree- the #1 dmen drafted top 4 (didn’t want to exclude Makar) are Dahlin, Hedman, Doughty, Pietro, Heiskanen, and Makar. Half of those six still have good years ahead, but are aging out. Seider, Sanderson, Hughes, Dobson, Werenski, and Bouchard were high draft picks, but not the coveted top 4. Fox, Slavin, Forsling, Josi, Morrisey, McAvoy, Theodore, Faber, Anderson, and the aged out Karlsson, Burns, Letang, and Karlsson were drafted outside the tank zone.

If you have a franchise C and a franchise D/G you’re in business as long as the GM does a half decent job of surrounding those two with good talent. Detroit may be able to thrive with a Larkin-Danielson-Kaspar provided their young D and goalies perform well, but I’d argue nothing drives team success like a premier center, as much as I love Seider.

You can’t just say, no franchise center, blow it up, we give up, time to tank, but damn it’s tough to win without one.
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But this jsut isn’t the case if you look at the teams that actually won? Crosby, Barkov, Eichel, Toews and Mackinnon were top 5. ROR, Bergeron, Kopitar, Backstrom, Point were not. Seems to be pretty even.
 
Pavels Dog said:
Can you write a list of franchise altering players? How many exist? Do all good teams have one?

And sure, Marty Frk hype was the same thing as excitement about Simon Edvinsson, Lucas Raymond and Nate Danielson. Sure. Extremely shrewd analysis.
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All future greats for sure. Red Wings are surely on a fast track to the top with such talents. 🫡
 
nbwingsfan said:
Can you show me when the Wings had a top 3 rated prospect pool before now…?
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The Red Wings have been frequently ranked high.


Here's from 2020 with 9th ranked pool.
1) Moritz Seider
2) Joe Veleno
3) Michael Rasmussen
4) Jonatan Berggren (can’t wait for him to get some North America exposure)
5) Jared McIsaac
6) Robert Mastrosimone
7) Antti Tuomisto
8) Otto Kivenmaki
9) Givani Smith
10) Albert Johansson
11) Ethan Phillips
12) Elmer Soderblom
13) Keith Petruzzeli
14) Filip Larsson (ouch)
15) Alvin Grewe
16) Gustav Lindstrom
17) Jesper Eliasson
18) Seth Barton
19) Kirill Tyutyayev
20) Carter Gylander

That one was judged to be top 9. Do you think that was a strong propect pool in retrospect?

In 2014 they were also top 10:

Ranked top 4 here according to this old reddit thread:

2015 article that has the Red Wings at 6:

One from 2012 where they ranked 10:

I've been following prospect rankings for 20 years now and having a high ranked pool isn't that great of a flex to be honest. It's like bragging about buying the most lottery tickets.

Lots of the top ranked pools end up with mid or worse results.
 
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Bank Shot said:
All future greats for sure. Red Wings are surely on a fast track to the top with such talents. 🫡
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So you can't even attempt to define "franchise altering". Again, great insights from you.

And I mean.. Raymond is doing things that basically only Yzerman has done in Red Wings history. So why is it so crazy to talk about him like a future great? Edvinsson a 6'6 unicorn looking great in top matchups as essentially a rookie, what seperates him from someone who is franchise altering or a future great?
 
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Bank Shot said:
They don't have any superstar level talents. No point in debating you though. You are operating solely on emotion.

I've backed up my points with links. You are just throwing insults at this point.
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So now you've thrown out "franchise altering" and "superstar" without any attempt to define either term. How many superstars are in the league?

I'll start with my definition:

Superstars: McDavid, Draisatl, Mackinnon, Makar, Pastrnak, Kucherov, Shesterkin.
Could be talked into maybe another 2-3 names. But that's about it. ~10 max.
20+ teams at least don't have a superstar in my eyes. So you might see why I don't think the lack of a superstar is the be all, end all.

Does Detroit have one? No. But they probably have at least a handful of players that either are or could get into the tier below = "stars".
 
Red Wings are starting to enter Senators territory (who are themselves entering Sabres territory). Pretty crazy none of these teams can ever take a step
 
Pavels Dog said:
So now you've thrown out "franchise altering" and "superstar" without any attempt to define either term. How many superstars are in the league?

I'll start with my definition:

Superstars: McDavid, Draisatl, Mackinnon, Makar, Pastrnak, Kucherov, Shesterkin.
Could be talked into maybe another 2-3 names. But that's about it. ~10 max.
20+ teams at least don't have a superstar in my eyes. So you might see why I don't think the lack of a superstar is the be all, end all.

Does Detroit have one? No. But they probably have at least a handful of players that either are or could get into the tier below = "stars".
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I would say any player in contention for a major trophy like Norris, Vezina, Art Ross, Rocket, Selke, Hart would be a franchise altering player. Top 10/20 scorers would fall here as well.

A lot more than 10 teams have these players, or players with that potential. Many of the contenders have 2 or 3 or more. These are your franchise cornerstones that carry the team night in and out.

The Red Wings don't have any.

Maybe Seider has the potential but guys like Makar, Hughes and Fox were already contending or winning the Norris at the same age as he is now so there is a big gap to close.

Seems like the Wings are still a couple of those players and years away from being a consistent playoff threat.
 
Bank Shot said:
I would say any player in contention for a major trophy like Norris, Vezina, Art Ross, Rocket, Selke, Hart would be a franchise altering player. Top 10/20 scorers would fall here as well.

A lot more than 10 teams have these players, or players with that potential. Many of the contenders have 2 or 3 or more. These are your franchise cornerstones that carry the team night in and out.

The Red Wings don't have any.

Maybe Seider has the potential but guys like Makar, Hughes and Fox were already contending or winning the Norris at the same age as he is now so there is a big gap to close.

Seems like the Wings are still a couple of those players and years away from being a consistent playoff threat.
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That's a pretty massive group of players, at least if you include guys that can get some votes but aren't necessarily perennial contenders their whole careers.
Seider, Edvinsson and Sandin-Pellikka absolutely have Norris-potential. Seider & Edvinsson especially. They'll peak later than small guys like Makar/Hughes/Fox so that's not a relevant comparison.

Cossa & Augustine have Vezina potential but that's a bit harder to project.
It wouldn't be shocking to see Kasper and Danielson get Selke votes in their prime either. Kasper is already a really good defensive center at 20.

But like I said, your definition makes it a group of probably hundreds of players so I'd say 32 out of 32 teams have franchise altering players according to that definition.
 
Dotter said:
Yzerman traded a cap dump to the Blues in exchange for a 2nd, 4th and Jake Walman. Even the Blues didn't want him and threw him in the deal... and gave up a TON to get rid of him. Wonder why that is?
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This is complete fiction. The Blues targeted Nick Leddy then re-signed him to a contract he has more than earned. Leddy has been fantastic in St. Louis and prior to his stint in Detroit had been a solid top 4 defender on multiple long playoff runs in Long Island. He had value and likely multiple suitors despite a down year on a dog shit red wings team.

I don’t know of any off ice issues with Walman in St. Louis - the team that drafted and developed him for years. Trading him was the cost of acquiring a better player more suited to the teams needs at that time.
 
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Bank Shot said:
The Red Wings have been frequently ranked high.


Here's from 2020 with 9th ranked pool.
1) Moritz Seider
2) Joe Veleno
3) Michael Rasmussen
4) Jonatan Berggren (can’t wait for him to get some North America exposure)
5) Jared McIsaac
6) Robert Mastrosimone
7) Antti Tuomisto
8) Otto Kivenmaki
9) Givani Smith
10) Albert Johansson
11) Ethan Phillips
12) Elmer Soderblom
13) Keith Petruzzeli
14) Filip Larsson (ouch)
15) Alvin Grewe
16) Gustav Lindstrom
17) Jesper Eliasson
18) Seth Barton
19) Kirill Tyutyayev
20) Carter Gylander

That one was judged to be top 9. Do you think that was a strong propect pool in retrospect?
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www.espn.com

Ranking all 31 NHL prospect pipelines: Kings leapfrog Rangers for No. 1 spot

With the likes of Alex Turcotte, Quinton Byfield and Arthur Kaliyev, Los Angeles' farm system comes in ahead of the Rangers, Senators and others in our annual rankings.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

It seems awfully disingenuous to pull a 2020 ranking that includes Rasmussen but not Raymond..

This one from 2020 has them ranked 5th and that seems extremely accurate to how things played out. In hindsight Buffalo and Dallas should have been higher but who else? It was definitely a top 6-8 prospect pool at the time and in hindsight.
 
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Pavels Dog said:
Seider, Edvinsson and Sandin-Pellikka absolutely have Norris-potential. Seider & Edvinsson especially. They'll peak later than small guys like Makar/Hughes/Fox so that's not a relevant comparison.

Cossa & Augustine have Vezina potential but that's a bit harder to project.
It wouldn't be shocking to see Kasper and Danielson get Selke votes in their prime either. Kasper is already a really good defensive center at 20.
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:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Seider, Edvinsson, ASP = Norris calibre
Cossa, Augustine = Vezina calibre
Kasper, Danielson = Selke calibre

Shut this thread down, folks. No team can contend with the coming Red Wings dynasty that will make the 80s Isles/Oilers look like the 1991 Sharks.

Meanwhile, back in reality:

1733072235327.jpeg


SirloinUB said:
It was definitely a top 7-9 prospect pool at the time and in hindsight.
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You’re, like, ALMOST at the point @Bank Shot is trying to make. Almost. Keep going.
 
Pavels Dog said:
That's a pretty massive group of players, at least if you include guys that can get some votes but aren't necessarily perennial contenders their whole careers.
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I'm obviously talking about the guys that are perennial contenders. Anyone can have a fluke season and get 30 votes. When you think about cornerstone players that carry a franchise you think about guys that are good, with one fluke season?

You would put Dubnyk and Hellebucyk in the same bucket?

Seider, Edvinsson and Sandin-Pellikka absolutely have Norris-potential. Seider & Edvinsson especially. They'll peak later than small guys like Makar/Hughes/Fox so that's not a relevant comparison.
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Seems like major wishful thinking to think you will have 3 Norris trophy contenders on one team. There is no guarantee these guys will peak at all. Many big guys like Erik Johnson just kind of stay the same their whole careers.

Cossa & Augustine have Vezina potential but that's a bit harder to project.
It wouldn't be shocking to see Kasper and Danielson get Selke votes in their prime either. Kasper is already a really good defensive center at 20.
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I would be shocked to see Kasper and Danielson winning Selkes, or being finalists. It's usually like 5 guys competing for the Selke year in and out.

Trying to peg goaltending prospects as having Vezina potential is pretty out there as well.

But like I said, your definition makes it a group of probably hundreds of players so I'd say 32 out of 32 teams have franchise altering players according to that definition.
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There are only maybe 200 guys that are bonafide top six forwards/top four defencemen year in and out. Maybe less.

Lets just say the Red Wings don't have any guys that are currently top 50 players in the NHL if you want to get hung up on definitions. They certainly dont have a top 32 player. Pretty hard to compete when that is the case.
 
VeteranPresence said:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Seider, Edvinsson, ASP = Norris calibre
Cossa, Augustine = Vezina calibre
Kasper, Danielson = Selke calibre

Shut this thread down, folks. No team can contend with the coming Red Wings dynasty that will make the 80s Isles/Oilers look like the 1991 Sharks.



You’re, like, ALMOST at the point @Bank Shot is trying to make. Almost. Keep going.
Click to expand...

You almost made a coherent post. Almost.
 
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SirloinUB said:
www.espn.com

Ranking all 31 NHL prospect pipelines: Kings leapfrog Rangers for No. 1 spot

With the likes of Alex Turcotte, Quinton Byfield and Arthur Kaliyev, Los Angeles' farm system comes in ahead of the Rangers, Senators and others in our annual rankings.
www.espn.com www.espn.com

It seems awfully disingenuous to pull a 2020 ranking that includes Rasmussen but not Raymond..

This one from 2020 has them ranked 5th and that seems extremely accurate to how things played out. In hindsight Buffalo and Dallas should have been higher but who else? It was definitely a top 6-8 prospect pool at the time and in hindsight.
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I found what I found. You try pulling the Red Wings prospect pool rankings for every year between 2005 and 2025 and get back to me when you are finished.

Once you have all that data for us we will restart the discussion.
 
VeteranPresence said:
If quoting the words of someone makes me sound incoherent, isn’t that a giveaway the original post is itself incoherent?
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Edvinsson, Seider and ASP are all excelling at their respective levels.

Seider and Ed are probably the best U25 pair in the league. ASP is trending towards a record setting season. If you can’t see that you aren’t paying attention.

Bank Shot said:
I found what I found. You try pulling the Red Wings prospect pool rankings for every year between 2005 and 2025 and get back to me when you are finished.

Once you have all that data for us we will restart the discussion.
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Are we evaluating yzerman’s drafting and development or Holland’s?

2005-2019 is all irrelevant to where the red wings are going and the work yzerman has done.

In fact many red wings fans argue the state of the franchise before yzerman took over is exactly why this thing is taking so long.
 
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SirloinUB said:
Edvinsson, Seider and ASP are all excelling at their respective levels.

Seider and Ed are probably the best U25 pair in the league. ASP is trending towards a record setting season. If you can’t see that you aren’t paying attention.
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Except that’s not what was claimed. Go back and re-read, I believe in you.
 
SirloinUB said:
Are we evaluating yzerman’s drafting and development or Holland’s?
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I was talking about Detroit having a history of being rated highly in prospect rankings going back years.

So it seems pretty relevant to me.

Its not the first time the Red Wings have been pumped as having a loaded prospect pool, so that is why I am not extremely impressed with a bunch of names of guys who may or may not turn out.

P. S. the 2020 article you are saying I was lying about was from Feb 2020, before Raymond was even drafted, so maybe try actually reading the material I posted before calling me out?
 
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Bank Shot said:
I was talking about Detroit having a history of being rated highly in prospect rankings going back years.

So it seems pretty relevant to me.

Its not the first time the Red Wings have been pumped as having a loaded prospect pool, so that is why I am not extremely impressed with a bunch of names of guys who may or may not turn out.

P. S. the 2020 article you are saying I was lying about was from Feb 2020, before Raymond was even drafted, so maybe try actually reading the material I posted before calling me out?
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“I’m unimpressed with this group because their prospects didn’t turn out in 2013” is an extremely poor way of evaluating their current their prospects. Literally everything but the team name and jerseys has changed.

If you want to shit on how things went when Holland was at the helm many red wings fans would join you. It’s literally irrelevant to the current prospects.
 
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