Detroit Redwings Downfall

[ShakenNotStirred]

I mean, there’s definitely fire. 22:30 a night and on pace for 50+ points and a positive player…on the sharks!

Another man's trash...

 

[Dotter]

I mean, there’s definitely fire. 22:30 a night and on pace for 50+ points and a positive player…on the sharks!

Yeah he had games on Wings where he did look good. And Wings certainly could have used that goodness of Jake Walman to make the playoffs. Instead they end up missing the playoffs by 0 points - Walman could have been useful!

Why were the Wings/Coach so intent on healthy scratching him? One rumor I read was Larkin and the team wanted him out. Apparently not in good standing in the locker room. But that is just one rumor.

Yzerman traded a cap dump to the Blues in exchange for a 2nd, 4th and Jake Walman. Even the Blues didn't want him and threw him in the deal... and gave up a TON to get rid of him. Wonder why that is?

And finally, Grier took a 2nd to accept him.

Maybe (hopefully) Walman realizes he's not very popular around the league and is trying to do better? But then Sharks go and healthy scratch him... just as Wings did before exiling him off the team in a swift and bold fashion.

I've always like Walman on the surface (what we as fans get to see), but I do have questions what his hitch is. I hope he does well. His time in Detroit was done. He wore out his welcome for whatever reason. Same as with the Blues..., let's see what Sharks end up doing with him.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Not saying you can’t get a good center outside the top 3-my sharks got 1b guys in Couture and Hertl outside the top 5, but an elite center?

If I wanted to win a cup in the next 5-10 years, here’s the centers I’d want:

1st overall: McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Hughes, Hischier, Bedard, Celebrini
2nd overall: Barkov, Carlsson, Eichel
3rd overall: Fantilli, Stuzle

Everyone else: Petterson (5th overall), Aho (2nd round), Point (3rd round, for the next couple years), and of course, if you count him Draisaitl (4th). Hintz, Suzuki, Thomas, may end up better than a few of the young guys, but more than 2/3rds the league’s premier centers come from 1/2 overall. If you go back 20 years you’ll find Getzlaf, Bergeron, Backstrom, and Kopitar as franchise centers outside the top 3, but then you’ve also got Thornton, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Toews in the top 3.

Franchise dmen are similar but not quite to the degree- the #1 dmen drafted top 4 (didn’t want to exclude Makar) are Dahlin, Hedman, Doughty, Pietro, Heiskanen, and Makar. Half of those six still have good years ahead, but are aging out. Seider, Sanderson, Hughes, Dobson, Werenski, and Bouchard were high draft picks, but not the coveted top 4. Fox, Slavin, Forsling, Josi, Morrisey, McAvoy, Theodore, Faber, Anderson, and the aged out Karlsson, Burns, Letang, and Karlsson were drafted outside the tank zone.

If you have a franchise C and a franchise D/G you’re in business as long as the GM does a half decent job of surrounding those two with good talent. Detroit may be able to thrive with a Larkin-Danielson-Kaspar provided their young D and goalies perform well, but I’d argue nothing drives team success like a premier center, as much as I love Seider.

You can’t just say, no franchise center, blow it up, we give up, time to tank, but damn it’s tough to win without one.

But this jsut isn’t the case if you look at the teams that actually won? Crosby, Barkov, Eichel, Toews and Mackinnon were top 5. ROR, Bergeron, Kopitar, Backstrom, Point were not. Seems to be pretty even.

 

[Bank Shot]

Can you write a list of franchise altering players? How many exist? Do all good teams have one?

And sure, Marty Frk hype was the same thing as excitement about Simon Edvinsson, Lucas Raymond and Nate Danielson. Sure. Extremely shrewd analysis.

All future greats for sure. Red Wings are surely on a fast track to the top with such talents.

 

[Bank Shot]

Can you show me when the Wings had a top 3 rated prospect pool before now…?

The Red Wings have been frequently ranked high.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedWings/s/eTfeLygSn6

Here's from 2020 with 9th ranked pool.
1) Moritz Seider
2) Joe Veleno
3) Michael Rasmussen
4) Jonatan Berggren (can’t wait for him to get some North America exposure)
5) Jared McIsaac
6) Robert Mastrosimone
7) Antti Tuomisto
8) Otto Kivenmaki
9) Givani Smith
10) Albert Johansson
11) Ethan Phillips
12) Elmer Soderblom
13) Keith Petruzzeli
14) Filip Larsson (ouch)
15) Alvin Grewe
16) Gustav Lindstrom
17) Jesper Eliasson
18) Seth Barton
19) Kirill Tyutyayev
20) Carter Gylander

That one was judged to be top 9. Do you think that was a strong propect pool in retrospect?

In 2014 they were also top 10:

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/detroit-red-wings/latest-news/from-the-archive-comparing-the-red-wings-prospect-pool-10-years-ago-to-now

Ranked top 4 here according to this old reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitRedWings/s/7LRw5BOrkq

2015 article that has the Red Wings at 6:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2385466-re-ranking-every-nhl-teams-prospect-pool

One from 2012 where they ranked 10:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1399413-nhl-power-rankings-ranking-each-teams-minor-league-prospects

I've been following prospect rankings for 20 years now and having a high ranked pool isn't that great of a flex to be honest. It's like bragging about buying the most lottery tickets.

Lots of the top ranked pools end up with mid or worse results.

 

[Pavels Dog]

All future greats for sure. Red Wings are surely on a fast track to the top with such talents.

So you can't even attempt to define "franchise altering". Again, great insights from you.

And I mean.. Raymond is doing things that basically only Yzerman has done in Red Wings history. So why is it so crazy to talk about him like a future great? Edvinsson a 6'6 unicorn looking great in top matchups as essentially a rookie, what seperates him from someone who is franchise altering or a future great?

 

[Bank Shot]

So you can't even attempt to define "franchise altering". Again, great insights from you.

They don't have any superstar level talents. No point in debating you though. You are operating solely on emotion.

I've backed up my points with links. You are just throwing insults at this point.

 

[Pavels Dog]

They don't have any superstar level talents. No point in debating you though. You are operating solely on emotion.

I've backed up my points with links. You are just throwing insults at this point.

So now you've thrown out "franchise altering" and "superstar" without any attempt to define either term. How many superstars are in the league?

I'll start with my definition:

Superstars: McDavid, Draisatl, Mackinnon, Makar, Pastrnak, Kucherov, Shesterkin.
Could be talked into maybe another 2-3 names. But that's about it. ~10 max.
20+ teams at least don't have a superstar in my eyes. So you might see why I don't think the lack of a superstar is the be all, end all.

Does Detroit have one? No. But they probably have at least a handful of players that either are or could get into the tier below = "stars".