Detroit Redwings Downfall

[FriendlyGhost92]

5 vs 6 years, hardly a difference. Yzerman. Excellent player, one of many not so effective in management.

Yeah bud, Tampa was nothing until JBB came over and completely transformed them.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Leafs when they first started their current playoff streak.

I'm sure everybody wants to emulate the Leafs...

 

[Bank Shot]

That’s cool, happy for you.

Try and find rankings that don’t have them as having one of the top prospect pools in the MHL right now.

I’ll wait.

And it counts for what?

I remember when Matha, and Frk, and Veleno, and Smith, and on and on were all the next big thing. Nyquist was the next Zetterberg. The system is always stacked in Detroit.

It never seems to pan out as advertised though.

The Wings have a lot of prospects, but I dont see any that look like franchise altering players.

 

[Dotter]

I believe your rebuild hasn’t started until you get an elite center or elite dman. Centers are almost exclusively found in the top 3, usually top 1-2. Elite dmen can be found elsewhere, as they did with Seider. Larkin-Danielson-Kulich could be an excellent center by committee, but Larkin isn’t that game breaking talent, and by the time the kids are ready, Larkin may be falling off.

The only way they could have gotten the elite C is to tank hard or get lottery luck. Maybe if they'd not gone for Debrincat and then tanked hard in 2023 and gotten one of the big 3, or Smith, but they’d have needed to be much, much worse give. How poor Chicago, SJ, Anaheim, CBJ, and MTL were that year.

Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.

For example:

• Aho (2nd round)
• Hintz (2nd round)
• Suzuki (13th overall)
• Thomas (20th overall)
• Zibanejad (6th overall)
• Larkin (15th overall)
• JT Miller (15th)
• Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
• Point (3rd round)

That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.

 

[Oneiro]

I think it's more that their young players are growing in fits and spurts, at different paces all over the lineup and the only consistent guys around them are Larkin and DeBrincat.

It's not pretty but they really remind me of Chicago's base before Kane and Toews. I think accumulating a lot of these quality depth guys and easing Larkin and Cat to lesser roles over time will pay off when they get 2 lights out stars up front to add to Raymond. And maybe MBN or someone like that will surprise.

I don't think it's nearly as dire as people make it out to be. I just think their veteran depth is identity-less, soft and not all too complementary inside of a growth process. And they need those truly elite, top 25 player in the game forwards.

As a hypothetical, if McDavid hit UFA and signed there, I think a cup would be inevitable with what's coming from the pipeline.

 

[Stive Morgan]

Don’t see much wrong that he has done unless you blame Yzerman for lottery luck.

Yes, the Walman trade was bad- I can’t imagine Grier would have passed Walman on waivers given the state of the defense- we’ve since added Ceci and Liljigren as well. Maybe going for Debrincat was the wrong timing, but they didn’t give up too much and got a young first line winger who grew up rooting for them. He’s hit on most of his early picks- Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson, ASP, Danielson, Cossa, and MBN have proven good, or look like very good picks. Kasper looks solid too.

I believe your rebuild hasn’t started until you get an elite center or elite dman. Centers are almost exclusively found in the top 3, usually top 1-2. Elite dmen can be found elsewhere, as they did with Seider. Larkin-Danielson-Kulich could be an excellent center by committee, but Larkin isn’t that game breaking talent, and by the time the kids are ready, Larkin may be falling off.

The only way they could have gotten the elite C is to tank hard or get lottery luck. Maybe if they'd not gone for Debrincat and then tanked hard in 2023 and gotten one of the big 3, or Smith, but they’d have needed to be much, much worse give. How poor Chicago, SJ, Anaheim, CBJ, and MTL were that year.

That's how I've felt, too. Yzerman has made the right moves in my eyes. All I really see is bad luck. I think a weak 2018 Draft really screwed up a lot of teams' rebuilds (namely Detroit and Montreal)

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Two top pairing defensemen is a pretty good start.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

you dont even make sense . i already explained the task isnt to get back into playoffs as quickly as possible at the cost of greater long term success . the task is to create a depth chart today that will lead to long term success and as many chances at a championship as possible which is best for redwing fans . but you continue to have to cry about missing playoffs 6 years when that has ZILCH to do with yzerman , that was the mess he inherited . but your in a rush to have bragging rights so you can get your motor mouth running and announce how smart and wonderful you are by being a fan of a good team . and right off the bat when somebody is whining about grammar at a hockey forum you know theyve got issues . then theres your babbling about prospects whivch are obviously needed to build a team being untested / unproven as if everey great hockey player hasnt been an untested prospect , and like its impossible for a teams fans to judge how good a prospect might become by their performances in lesser leagues , lol . just pack it up

Didn’t read, lol.

Again, if you're going to actually attempt to have a discussion, you might want to start by demonstrating a better grasp of basic grammatical skills.

I’m not combing through another jumbled mess that looks like it was written by an Yzerman fanboy 24 Miller Lites deep.

 

[nbwingsfan]

And it counts for what?

I remember when Matha, and Frk, and Veleno, and Smith, and on and on were all the next big thing. Nyquist was the next Zetterberg. The system is always stacked in Detroit.

It never seems to pan out as advertised though.

The Wings have a lot of prospects, but I dont see any that look like franchise altering players.

Can you show me when the Wings had a top 3 rated prospect pool before now…?

 

[Peasy]

Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.

For example:

• Aho (2nd round)
• Hintz (2nd round)
• Suzuki (13th overall)
• Thomas (20th overall)
• Zibanejad (6th overall)
• Larkin (15th overall)
• JT Miller (15th)
• Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
• Point (3rd round)

That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.

Youre lookin at the wrong Elias Pettersson. The C was taken 5th overall.

 

[Negan4Coach]

The Cult of Yzerman is finish???

 

[matt trick]

Look at this list of top 20 centers in the NHL published in August and tell me if you agree.

NHL Top Players: Top 20 Centers | NHL.com

NHL Network reveals best of current crop

www.nhl.com

If you do at least somewhat agree with that list, then look over where a majority of those centers were drafted.

For example:

• Aho (2nd round)
• Hintz (2nd round)
• Suzuki (13th overall)
• Thomas (20th overall)
• Zibanejad (6th overall)
• Larkin (15th overall)
• JT Miller (15th)
• Elias Pettersson (3rd round)
• Point (3rd round)

That's a pretty good list from mid 1st to 3rd round. Less than half of the top 20 were top 3.

Not saying you can’t get a good center outside the top 3-my sharks got 1b guys in Couture and Hertl outside the top 5, but an elite center?

If I wanted to win a cup in the next 5-10 years, here’s the centers I’d want:

1st overall: McDavid, McKinnon, Matthews, Hughes, Hischier, Bedard, Celebrini
2nd overall: Barkov, Carlsson, Eichel
3rd overall: Fantilli, Stuzle

Everyone else: Petterson (5th overall), Aho (2nd round), Point (3rd round, for the next couple years), and of course, if you count him Draisaitl (4th). Hintz, Suzuki, Thomas, may end up better than a few of the young guys, but more than 2/3rds the league’s premier centers come from 1/2 overall. If you go back 20 years you’ll find Getzlaf, Bergeron, Backstrom, and Kopitar as franchise centers outside the top 3, but then you’ve also got Thornton, Malkin, Crosby, Staal, and Toews in the top 3.

Franchise dmen are similar but not quite to the degree- the #1 dmen drafted top 4 (didn’t want to exclude Makar) are Dahlin, Hedman, Doughty, Pietro, Heiskanen, and Makar. Half of those six still have good years ahead, but are aging out. Seider, Sanderson, Hughes, Dobson, Werenski, and Bouchard were high draft picks, but not the coveted top 4. Fox, Slavin, Forsling, Josi, Morrisey, McAvoy, Theodore, Faber, Anderson, and the aged out Karlsson, Burns, Letang, and Karlsson were drafted outside the tank zone.

If you have a franchise C and a franchise D/G you’re in business as long as the GM does a half decent job of surrounding those two with good talent. Detroit may be able to thrive with a Larkin-Danielson-Kaspar provided their young D and goalies perform well, but I’d argue nothing drives team success like a premier center, as much as I love Seider.

You can’t just say, no franchise center, blow it up, we give up, time to tank, but damn it’s tough to win without one.