Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Ok I'll bite.

Here's the list of the top 10 prospects Yzerman was handed when he took over the team V.S our current top 10. The current top 10 list is missing a few standout names, Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson.

Top Prospects 2018
Joe Veleno
Filip Zadina
Jared McIsaac
Dennis Cholowski
Filip Larsson
Jonatan Berggren
Taro Hirose
Yevgeni Svechnikov
Axel Holmström
Michael Rasmussen

Top Prospects 2024
1. Nate Danielson
2. Axel Sandin Pellikka
3. Sebastian Cossa
4. Marco Kasper
5. Michael Brandsegg-Nygård
6. Trey Augustine
7. Carter Mazur
8. Albert Johansson
9. William Wallinder
10. Dmitri Buchelnikov

Detroit has one of the deepest prospect pools in the entire league. So to say our drafting is bad? Laughably ignorant take.
Imo the drafting is good. It’s getting a lot of good players. But it lacks the elite star players that are difference makers. Yzerman needs to find elite guys. Hard to sign as UFAs and hard to find via trade. Not too sure where he’s going to come up with them.
 
Ok I'll bite.

Here's the list of the top 10 prospects Yzerman was handed when he took over the team V.S our current top 10. The current top 10 list is missing a few standout names, Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson.

Top Prospects 2018
Joe Veleno
Filip Zadina
Jared McIsaac
Dennis Cholowski
Filip Larsson
Jonatan Berggren
Taro Hirose
Yevgeni Svechnikov
Axel Holmström
Michael Rasmussen

Top Prospects 2024
1. Nate Danielson
2. Axel Sandin Pellikka
3. Sebastian Cossa
4. Marco Kasper
5. Michael Brandsegg-Nygård
6. Trey Augustine
7. Carter Mazur
8. Albert Johansson
9. William Wallinder
10. Dmitri Buchelnikov

Detroit has one of the deepest prospect pools in the entire league. So to say our drafting is bad? Laughably ignorant take.
Sorry but I don’t buy it :/ that franchise has been run badly for about 10-ish years now, and that “super deep prospect pool”-doesn’t stand out so much. But I hope I’m wrong for your sake! :)
 
Yeah because we definitely all said this. Maybe respond to who you're quoting instead of grouping in thousands of people with a handful of delusional fans in this thread
Which ones are the delusional wings fans in here, it’s hard to tell.
 
Yeah totally man, your prospect definitely looks in the mold of the best defensive forward in the history of the game.
I would hope you know the difference between "in the mold of" and "is the second coming of", but that's a lot to ask on this board.

I'll spell it out for you: Danielson is not Bergeron 2.0. But he plays the game similar to Bergeron did. We hope he can be 50-60% of what Bergeron was at his peak, which would make him a good 1C. Bergeron was an elite franchise 1C due to his defensive play. We don't think he'll be that. I didn't say that. No one else has either. You are free to continue using strawman arguments if you prefer though
 
I would hope you know the difference between "in the mold of" and "plays similar to", but that's a lot to ask on this board.

I'll spell it out for you: Danielson is not Bergeron 2.0. But he plays the game similar to Bergeron did. We hope he can be 50-60% of what Bergeron was at his peak, which would make him a good 1C. Bergeron was an elite franchise 1C due to his defensive play. we don't think he'll be that. i didnt' say that. no one else has either. You are free to continue using strawmen arguments if you prefer though

You’re the one dropping Bergerons name as if he’s the only defense-focused centre ever. If you think he’ll be 50% of Bergeron then say Phil Danault. But no, because you’re a fan putting the most optimistic spin on everything.
 
You’re the one dropping Bergerons name as if he’s the only defense-focused centre ever. If you think he’ll be 50% of Bergeron then say Phil Danault. But no, because you’re a fan putting the most optimistic spin on everything that’s a bridge too far I guess.
no, i would not drop phil danault, because he doesn't play similar to phil danault. what don't you understand?

he plays very similar to bergeron. he has much more offensive ability than danault, similar to bergeron. however his defense is not as elite as bergeron's, though i think his offense is probably similar. so a bergeron lite is a much better comparison than a danault clone. danault doesn't have nearly the offensive creativity of danielson, but danielson is also not as good defensively as danault. danault is much more of a compelte defense-focused shutdown forward, whereas danielson is a 2way forward. like bergeron was.

it's a stylistic comparison. danault is not a similar style to either of these guys. you should probably watch these guys play instead of just talking s*** on message boards
 
You’re the one dropping Bergerons name as if he’s the only defense-focused centre ever. If you think he’ll be 50% of Bergeron then say Phil Danault. But no, because you’re a fan putting the most optimistic spin on everything that’s a bridge too far I guess.
It’s understandable that fans of poor clubs hope their prospects will become the star players their roster needs. Whether it’s ASP will be the Wing’s much needed 1D, or Danielson will be their much needed 1C, it’s hoping for a better future. That’s understandable because if the fans don’t have these prospects to hope for then both the present and future are bleak.
 
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no, i would not drop phil danault, because he doesn't play similar to phil danault. what don't you understand?

he plays very similar to bergeron. he has much more offensive ability than danault, similar to bergeron. however his defense is not as elite as bergeron's, though i think his offense is probably similar. so a bergeron lite is a much better comparison than a danault clone. danault doesn't have nearly the offensive creativity of danielson, but danielson is also not as good defensively as danault. danault is much more of a compelte defense-focused shutdown forward, whereas danielson is a 2way forward. like bergeron was.

Actually Bergeron had way more offensive ability than Danielson, who is putting up a 0.62 PPG in the AHL at 20 years old.

Bergeron was putting up 73 points in the NHL at the same age. And you’re calling them similar offensively, because you’re delusional.
 
It’s weird, and sad, to see what the Red Wings have become. Kind of started when they made boneheaded moves like moving prospects for old guys like Legwand and stuff, or?

Feels like their drafting is really bad these days too. No late round gems like before, even. Raymond turned out great, and Seider and Edvinsson looks steady, but what else is there?…
Yzerman not tanking longer when he had an unlimited leash is what will ultimately prove the fatal flaw imo.
 
Actually Bergeron had way more offensive ability than Danielson, who is putting up a 0.62 PPG in the AHL at 20 years old.

Bergeron was putting up 73 points in the NHL at the same age. And you’re calling them similar offensively, because you’re delusional.
Bergeron played in the AHL in his D+2 season, same as Danielson, albeit because of the lockout. You also conveniently forget to mention that Bergerons 73 point sophomore season was his second best season ever, and apart from his 70 pt D+4 season he only came close to that point total once again in his entire career. I am saying Danielson has similar offensive potential as 55-65 pt Bergeron, which is who he was for 95% of his career.

But you’re choosing to purposely ignore that, because you have a clear agenda and cannot argue in good faith.
 
It’s understandable that fans of poor clubs hope their prospects will become the star players their roster needs. Whether it’s ASP will be the Wing’s much needed 1D, or Danielson will be their much needed 1C, it’s hoping for a better future. That’s understandable because if the fans don’t have these prospects to hope for then both the present and future are bleak.
What's that Fatass? "much needed 1D"??
 
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"Point producing PP guys" The PP is the least important part of a 1D's responsibilities. See the Wings being top 6 on the PP and bottom 6 in league standings.
 
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While that’s fair, Seider is clearly a 1D today. Unless you also think Slavin and Faber aren’t 1D.
Yes, I should have clarified. ASP might play 1D minutes depending on the game need. Lots of PP opportunity and maybe being behind. But clearly Seider would get the harder minutes. Although ASP might grow into something special too. I think that is the hope fans of clubs have. That their prospects grow into special players.
 
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Right.

It's obvious that signing Copp, Chiarot, and Compher were bad ideas. Sometimes it's ok to admit the obvious instead of making up pretend arguments.
Ever heard of hindsight?

Yeah all 3 of these guys have been and are currently underperforming, but the entire team is no better - I’ve been saying since last season that Lalonde needs to go and with a new/different voice behind the bench would likely have an impact.

If there’s a blunder on behalf of Yzerman - it was hiring Lalonde.
 
Bergeron played in the AHL in his D+2 season, same as Danielson, albeit because of the lockout. You also conveniently forget to mention that Bergerons 73 point sophomore season was his second best season ever, and apart from his 70 pt D+4 season he only came close to that point total once again in his entire career. I am saying Danielson has similar offensive potential as 55-65 pt Bergeron, which is who he was for 95% of his career.

But you’re choosing to purposely ignore that, because you have a clear agenda and cannot argue in good faith.

If you wanted to argue in good faith, you might mention that the reason Bergeron's pt totals were low was because of his defensive deployment under the most conservative coach in the league. When that changed, his totals predictably went up (he was basically a PPG center from 2017 to 2022, in his mid-30s).

The comparison doesn't work regardless. Everyone loves to label their safe, hard-working center prospects "future Bergerons", but people forget Bergeron was a pretty creative, dynamic offensive player when he was young. Danielson's progress has been a bit slow since getting drafted; there were questions about his offensive upside at the time, and he's done nothing to make them go away. I don't doubt he'll make the NHL in some capacity, but I think saying he's on track to be a top-6 center in the NHL is pretty optimistic at this stage.
 
If you wanted to argue in good faith, you might mention that the reason Bergeron's pt totals were low was because of his defensive deployment under the most conservative coach in the league. When that changed, his totals predictably went up (he was basically a PPG center from 2017 to 2022, in his mid-30s).

The comparison doesn't work regardless. Everyone loves to label their safe, hard-working center prospects "future Bergerons", but people forget Bergeron was a pretty creative, dynamic offensive player when he was young. Danielson's progress has been a bit slow since getting drafted; there were questions about his offensive upside at the time, and he's done nothing to make them go away. I don't doubt he'll make the NHL in some capacity, but I think saying he's on track to be a top-6 center in the NHL is pretty optimistic at this stage.
Lol
 
The development and timeline of young players is not for fans to decide. He finally has Kasper and Ed in permanently. I can't wait for Danielson and ASP too. If you don't think Yzerman will get to see his players play then u probably don't know Ilitch Yzerman relationship.
 
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Ok I'll bite.

Here's the list of the top 10 prospects Yzerman was handed when he took over the team V.S our current top 10. The current top 10 list is missing a few standout names, Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson.

Top Prospects 2018
Joe Veleno
Filip Zadina
Jared McIsaac
Dennis Cholowski
Filip Larsson
Jonatan Berggren
Taro Hirose
Yevgeni Svechnikov
Axel Holmström
Michael Rasmussen

Top Prospects 2024
1. Nate Danielson
2. Axel Sandin Pellikka
3. Sebastian Cossa
4. Marco Kasper
5. Michael Brandsegg-Nygård
6. Trey Augustine
7. Carter Mazur
8. Albert Johansson
9. William Wallinder
10. Dmitri Buchelnikov

Detroit has one of the deepest prospect pools in the entire league. So to say our drafting is bad? Laughably ignorant take.
Sorry to break it to you but that top list at the time of December 2018 (and you missed Hronek) isn't really much worse than your bottom list of today. That's how prospects work, they look amazing and full of promise 2-3 years after being drafted. But 4-6 years later you get heavy attrition as many fail to make the jump to regular NHL players, let alone impact ones.

For example just trying to dig up a team ranking list of 2018, found this one and here's Detroit's write up:

10. Detroit Red Wings​

Isn't it amazing how one weekend at the draft can improve an organization's chances at being relevant again? Well if anyone should know, it's Red Wings GM Ken Holland, who in 1989 was part of Jimmy Devellano's staff that produced one of the greatest draft classes in NHL history. The thing is, Detroit's farm system before the 2018 draft already included solid pieces in two-way center Michael Rasmussen, puck movers Filip Hronek, Gustav Lindstrom and Dennis Cholowski, and goalie Filip Larsson. Now Holland added two potential franchise players in winger Filip Zadina and center Joe Veleno, plus roadrunner Jonatan Berggren.

PROSPECTPOSITION2018-19 TEAM (Proj.)ACQUIRED
1. Filip ZadinaLWHalifax (QMJHL)1st/2018
2. Joe VelenoCDrummondville (QMJHL)1st/2018
3. Michael RasmussenCTri-City (WHL)1st/2017
4. Jonathan BerggrenLWDjugardens (SHL)2nd/2018
5. Filip HronekRHDGrand Rapids (AHL)2nd/2016
6. Jared McIsaacLHDHalifax (QMJHL)2nd/2018
7. Gustav LindstromRHDAltumna (Allsvenskan)2nd/2017
8. Evgeny SvechnikovRWGrand Rapids (AHL)1st/2015
9. Filip LarssonGDenver (NCAA)6th/2016
10. Dennis CholowskiLHDGrand Rapids (AHL)1st/2016
 
If you wanted to argue in good faith, you might mention that the reason Bergeron's pt totals were low was because of his defensive deployment under the most conservative coach in the league. When that changed, his totals predictably went up (he was basically a PPG center from 2017 to 2022, in his mid-30s).

The comparison doesn't work regardless. Everyone loves to label their safe, hard-working center prospects "future Bergerons", but people forget Bergeron was a pretty creative, dynamic offensive player when he was young. Danielson's progress has been a bit slow since getting drafted; there were questions about his offensive upside at the time, and he's done nothing to make them go away. I don't doubt he'll make the NHL in some capacity, but I think saying he's on track to be a top-6 center in the NHL is pretty optimistic at this stage.
at no point in bergerons pre-draft career did he display significantly more offensive upside than Danielson. Danielson scored at an identical pace in his draft year in juniors

I won’t argue that Bergeron had very good offensive creativity. I agree. But Your assessment of Danielson is , as with 99% of the posters in this thread, laughably misinformed, yet you discuss it with such conviction.
 
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Ever heard of hindsight?

Yeah all 3 of these guys have been and are currently underperforming, but the entire team is no better - I’ve been saying since last season that Lalonde needs to go and with a new/different voice behind the bench would likely have an impact
There is no hindsight here , most thought giving those 3 the money was too much at the time.
 
There is no hindsight here , most thought giving those 3 the money was too much at the time.
How many UFAs are underpaid?

Not a lot of elite UFAs available and most won’t want to sign on with a team rebuilding.

The guys Yzerman has signed won’t likely be on the team if/when the Red Wings are deemed a top team and a legitimate Cup contender.

Personally - I think we’re heading into ‘Minnesota Mediocrity’...Good enough to make the Wild Card 7th/8th some years, but likely lose in the 1st round, and other seasons missing out.
 
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