Proposal: Detroit-Anaheim

[Kalv]

My thinking is watching his play from a fan perspective.

He's played on the 3rd line scoring at a 45P pace. He'll score more with more minutes.

I don't want to give him up, but the Wings need defense and I value Mantha and AA more. Doesn't mean my 'thinking' is false evidence or that I think any less of Tatar.

He notched 56P on a mediocre Wings team before last season and scored 21G last season on a severely handicapped offensive Wings team. That's four points shy of 60P two seasons ago. Not a DRAMATIC difference, no?

There still was a reason why he played on 3d line not the 1st

This situation sounds very similar to Palmieri`s (Tatar is the better player no question). We will not pay for him as a 60p player, it is very likely that he will be worse in Anaheim than last season in Detroit. Look at Hagelin and Palmieri, their speed or skill wasn`t fitting well with Anaheim, we need some grit. While Tatar is better than any of those two, i don`t see him as a player for whom i would pay a premium price. For us it would be dumb to do that, sorry.

 

[HisNoodliness]

There still was a reason why he played on 3d line not the 1st

Regardless of everything else you said that reason has almost nothing to do with Tatar's play and everything to do with incompetent coaching.

I honestly think Tatar would light it up with you guys though. He would absolutely kill it with either Getzlaf or Kessler as his center. He has all the skill in the world and the rest of your lineup can take care of the dirty work that Tatar struggles with. That being said he is a very tenacious player that goes to the dirty areas, but if a large D is there he's not super effective.

 

[tomd]

Regardless of everything else you said that reason has almost nothing to do with Tatar's play and everything to do with incompetent coaching.

I honestly think Tatar would light it up with you guys though. He would absolutely kill it with either Getzlaf or Kessler as his center. He has all the skill in the world and the rest of your lineup can take care of the dirty work that Tatar struggles with. That being said he is a very tenacious player that goes to the dirty areas, but if a large D is there he's not super effective.

actually, if Tatar played with Getzlaf and Perry he would be expected to go into the corners to get the puck. I don't see him doing that nor do I see him as a particularly good fit for the Ducks. GMBM loves size and speed which probably means he is more interested in someone like AA or Mantha.

If a trade goes down between the two teams I see Detroit giving up 2 forwards...a roster player (Tatar but more likely Sheahan) and a prospect (either AA or Mantha). Time will tell.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Don't see Holland trading a package including Mantha or AA for someone like Fowler.

 

[drw02]

Detroit fans seem to be missing two key points in this thread: (i) a significant part of Fowler's value is his very reasonable contract for the next two years; and (ii) as a budget team with some big salaries (Getz, Kessler, Perry and soon to be Lindholm) and young players due raises, they cannot deal away prospects like Montour unless there is cheap and ELITE talent coming back.

Is Fowler better than Shattenkirk? No. But Shattenkirk is making $5.2M next year and then is a UFA who will make $6M+ with a lot of term (and he might not resign with the team that trades for him). Fowler is signed for $4M for the next two years and will probably sign for less than Shattenkirk after that (and probably would give his hometown team Detroit a bit of a discount). In a vacuum, everyone takes Shattenkirk - but he costs you AT LEAST $3M more in the next two years and more after that. In a salary cap world, Fowler has a ton of value, because he's a pretty good player with a really good contract which has a lot of value for teams up against the cap.

Bottom line - if Detroit wants a defenseman like Fowler, young talent like AA or Mantha has to come back. The ducks don't have to trade him - he is a useful part of their team and he will likely have significant value at the trade deadline or even next off-season. The reason they are willing to trade him is that they have lots of NHL defensemen and lots of D prospects on the way and a real need for forwards (particularly low salaried). Deal from depth to balance the roster.

I recognize Detroit and its fans really like AA and Mantha - but given your roster and the free agent forwards you just signed, it seems pretty obvious that trading one or both of those guys is the smartest (and perhaps only) way to get back a useful piece like Fowler. Maybe Detroit doesn't need a top 2-3 defensemen - your GM says you don't but your roster suggests you do. Like the ducks, Detroit needs to deal excess pieces.

You guys sure are great at contradicting yourselves. A proven top F is a must for Fowler, now its an unproven prospect. Since when is that more valuable than a proven forward who is still relatively young? Tatar and Nyquist are the best pieces for Detroit to move. They are kinda in a retool/rebuild whatever you wanna call it, those two will probably be out of their prime by the time Wings are ready to contend again.

Ducks need to make this trade a lot more than Detroit. Wings aren't contending for a cup this year regardless, Ducks have a chance. You need scoring help and there aren't many other places your gonna find that help at this point. If you'd rather keep Fowler and leave little to no ice time for your young, upcoming D and have no secondary scoring then that's your choice. Wings have little reason to budge and add on one of their top prospects.

 

[tomd]

Don't see Holland trading a package including Mantha or AA for someone like Fowler.

I know you don't but unless a true #1 LW is coming back for Fowler, the assets that Anaheim will want must be cost controlled.

Keep in mind that GMBM traded Palmeiri a year ago b/c he knew he wouldn't be able to afford him as an RFA. That is EXACTLY the same situation that Tatar is in right now. Realistically, why would GMBM want Tatar when he knows he can't afford him in one year?

 

[Claypool]

Ducks need scoring help, so lets trade for a young but very unproven forward to address the issue. lol

I only can hope Mantha scores as much as Tatar does in this league.

 

[tomd]

You guys sure are great at contradicting yourselves. A proven top F is a must for Fowler, now its an unproven prospect. Since when is that more valuable than a proven forward who is still relatively young? Tatar and Nyquist are the best pieces for Detroit to move. They are kinda in a retool/rebuild whatever you wanna call it, those two will probably be out of their prime by the time Wings are ready to contend again.

Ducks need to make this trade a lot more than Detroit. Wings aren't contending for a cup this year regardless, Ducks have a chance. You need scoring help and there aren't many other places your gonna find that help at this point. If you'd rather keep Fowler and leave little to no ice time for your young, upcoming D and have no secondary scoring then that's your choice. Wings have little reason to budge and add on one of their top prospects.

Actually, the best thing for the Ducks to do if they want to win a cup this year is to keep Fowler. The reality is that they can't afford to do it.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Actually, the best thing for the Ducks to do if they want to win a cup this year is to keep Fowler. The reality is that they can't afford to do it.

I disagree completely... I think our defense is good enough without Fowler, it's our offense thst lacks.

 

[tomd]

I disagree completely... I think our defense is good enough without Fowler, it's our offense thst lacks.

you might be right but you then assume that (1) Theodore will be ready for top 6 minutes and not be the disaster he was in the playoffs, (2) Bieksa can return to his form of 5 years ago, (3) Stoner will magically improve his skating and agility, and (4) there will be no injuries.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Re-signing Tatar shouldn't be a problem. We're likely going to buyout Bieksa if he doesn't waive, saving us $, and we'll likely lose Despres' contract in the expansion draft. Not to mention that Thompson's 1.6M contract and Garbutt's 0.9M contract comes off the books next season and we don't have any signings to make either, except maybe Bernier (however, I suspect we move on with Gibson as our #1GT). However, Nyquist could be a possible target. He's Swedish, so it makes sense on that level.

I know you don't but unless a true #1 LW is coming back for Fowler, the assets that Anaheim will want must be cost controlled.

Keep in mind that GMBM traded Palmeiri a year ago b/c he knew he wouldn't be able to afford him as an RFA. That is EXACTLY the same situation that Tatar is in right now. Realistically, why would GMBM want Tatar when he knows he can't afford him in one year?

Ducks fans, you are confusing me with your contradictions. When it was talks of Tatar+ for Vatanen deal, apparently it was ok and there were no contract concerns regarding Tatar. Now that Vatanen has been switched to Fowler, all of a sudden Tatar's contract is a concern. Not only that, but there are conflicting opinions regarding if Tatar can actually be re-signed or not amongst your own fan base as shown above. Can we get a definitive answer when it comes to Tatar and his contract?

 

[tomd]

Ducks fans, you are confusing me with your contradictions. When it was talks of Tatar+ for Vatanen deal, apparently it was ok and there were no contract concerns regarding Tatar. Now that Vatanen has been switched to Fowler, all of a sudden Tatar's contract is a concern. Not only that, but there are conflicting opinions regarding if Tatar can actually be re-signed or not amongst your own fan base as shown above. Can we get a definitive answer when it comes to Tatar and his contract?

Some fans don't look at the cap implications of trades as much as others do. There are Ducks fans that want Nyquist when he is clearly unaffordable. Don't paint all Ducks fans with the same brush.

Having said that, fans can have legitimate differences of opinion. One fan may believe that Tatar's contract one year from now will not a problem. I believe it would be. At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is that of GMBM.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

you might be right but you then assume that (1) Theodore will be ready for top 6 minutes and not be the disaster he was in the playoffs, (2) Bieksa can return to his form of 5 years ago, (3) Stoner will magically improve his skating and agility, and (4) there will be no injuries.

As bad as Theodore was in the last playoffs Fowler was worse... borderline embarrassing. Theo is ready for top 6 mins, obviously sheltered mins but hell be in nhl this year no problem. Injuries could happen with or without Fowler, trading Fowler or keeping him doesn't improve that. I'm hoping they move stoner or bieska also not putting to much faith in it but would be nice.

Manson lindholm
Vatanen despres
Theodore bieska/stoner/holzer
would be alright I thought stoner did a good job with Vatanen when he first came up wouldn't mind him with theo to be honest. If we keep Fowler we might as well trade montour Theodore or larsson for a equally skilled/aged forward prospect and start them In the NHL.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Some fans don't look at the cap implications of trades as much as others do. There are Ducks fans that want Nyquist when he is clearly unaffordable. Don't paint all Ducks fans with the same brush.

Having said that, fans can have legitimate differences of opinion. One fan may believe that Tatar's contract one year from now will not a problem. I believe it would be. At the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is that of GMBM.

I just don't see how the opinion can change so much. It went from a consensus yes, Tatar+ for Vatanen will work, to now all of a sudden Tatar has contract issues for the Ducks.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I just don't see how the opinion can changes so much. It went from a consensus yes, Tatar+ for Vatanen will work, to now all of a sudden Tatar has contract issues for the Ducks.

I think before the contract Anaheim fans wanted to trade Vatanen but now thst he got locked up its obvious Fowler is likely gone and he is kinda a fan favorite , so some fans will be tough to talk them into a trade involing Fowler

 

[obey86]

Detroit fans seem to be missing two key points in this thread: (i) a significant part of Fowler's value is his very reasonable contract for the next two years; and (ii) as a budget team with some big salaries (Getz, Kessler, Perry and soon to be Lindholm) and young players due raises, they cannot deal away prospects like Montour unless there is cheap and ELITE talent coming back.

Is Fowler better than Shattenkirk? No. But Shattenkirk is making $5.2M next year and then is a UFA who will make $6M+ with a lot of term (and he might not resign with the team that trades for him). Fowler is signed for $4M for the next two years and will probably sign for less than Shattenkirk after that (and probably would give his hometown team Detroit a bit of a discount). In a vacuum, everyone takes Shattenkirk - but he costs you AT LEAST $3M more in the next two years and more after that. In a salary cap world, Fowler has a ton of value, because he's a pretty good player with a really good contract which has a lot of value for teams up against the cap.

Bottom line - if Detroit wants a defenseman like Fowler, young talent like AA or Mantha has to come back. The ducks don't have to trade him - he is a useful part of their team and he will likely have significant value at the trade deadline or even next off-season. The reason they are willing to trade him is that they have lots of NHL defensemen and lots of D prospects on the way and a real need for forwards (particularly low salaried). Deal from depth to balance the roster.

I recognize Detroit and its fans really like AA and Mantha - but given your roster and the free agent forwards you just signed, it seems pretty obvious that trading one or both of those guys is the smartest (and perhaps only) way to get back a useful piece like Fowler. Maybe Detroit doesn't need a top 2-3 defensemen - your GM says you don't but your roster suggests you do. Like the ducks, Detroit needs to deal excess pieces.

Isn't a large part of the reason Fowler is available is because they could lose him (or another defenseman) in the expansion draft next offseason considering they are forced to protect Bieksa because of his NMC?

 

[tomd]

Isn't a large part of the reason Fowler is available is because they could lose him (or another defenseman) in the expansion draft next offseason considering they are forced to protect Bieksa because of his NMC?

It is a contributing factor for sure.

 

[obey86]

There still was a reason why he played on 3d line not the 1st

This situation sounds very similar to Palmieri`s (Tatar is the better player no question). We will not pay for him as a 60p player, it is very likely that he will be worse in Anaheim than last season in Detroit. Look at Hagelin and Palmieri, their speed or skill wasn`t fitting well with Anaheim, we need some grit. While Tatar is better than any of those two, i don`t see him as a player for whom i would pay a premium price. For us it would be dumb to do that, sorry.

Yeah, because the coach is really dumb and thought it would be a great idea to play one of the few players on a low scoring team who can actually score goals (Tatar was 2nd on the team in goals) on the 3rd line, team low minutes.

Meanwhile players like Brad Richards and Darren Helm play in the top 6 nearly all season despite being completely unproductive and barely combining (54 points) to outscore Tatar (45 points) despite playing with the Wings best player (Pavel Datsyuk) nearly all season.

 

[obey86]

It is a contributing factor for sure.

That's what I thought. I guess I don't see how "the Ducks don't have to trade him" then, considering there's a good chance they could lose him for nothing if they don't trade him. Given that fact, the Ducks are certainly on more of a tight timeline to move Fowler than the Wings are to make a trade.

 

[liquiduck]

Isn't a large part of the reason Fowler is available is because they could lose him (or another defenseman) in the expansion draft next offseason considering they are forced to protect Bieksa because of his NMC?

Expansion is a small reason. Two bigger factors imo are
1) Just how this orginaztion recylces assets
2) Too many defensemen

 

[liquiduck]

That's what I thought. I guess I don't see how "the Ducks don't have to trade him" then, considering there's a good chance they could lose him for nothing if they don't trade him. Given that fact, the Ducks are certainly on more of a tight timeline to move Fowler than the Wings are to make a trade.

The timeline to move him is the trade deadline in 2017-18 season.

Gievn how much urgency Holland has shown in the past in terms of making trades, you're probably still right.


If Fowler is on the roster come expansion time, he will be protected.

 

[obey86]

The timeline to move him is the trade deadline in 2017-18 season.

Gievn how much urgency Holland has shown in the past in terms of making trades, you're probably still right.


If Fowler is on the roster come expansion time, he will be protected.

In place of who? Vatanen?

 

[dracom]

In place of who? Vatanen?

We would protect Fowler, Vats, Lindholm. We would also buyout Bieksa before the draft.

 

[liquiduck]

We would protect Fowler, Vats, Lindholm. We would also buyout Bieksa before the draft.

this

 

[tomd]

We would protect Fowler, Vats, Lindholm. We would also buyout Bieksa before the draft.

But that leaves Manson unprotected and if he continues to improve at the rate he has been improving, that could be a big loss for nothing.