Proposal: Detroit-Anaheim

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Well I think you kinda know my stance on Tatar already. I'm not that high on him. He's a good player, but I'd rather go Sheahan + mantha tbh. Especially if Detroit is going to try and sell Fowler for Tatar + tiny add.

Fair enough, But Sheahan only makes half as much as Fowler and both are signed for 2 more years. I doubt that Sheahan+Mantha gets it done for Detroit. Tatar is the one getting moved in any deal for a D man regardless if it's Fowler or Shattenkirk he's just the most expendable one here. Sheahan+Mantha for Fowler doubt it works cap wise for Detroit even Tatar is a little bit better only $1.25M between what Fowler makes and what Tatar makes.

 

[liquiduck]

Fair enough, But Sheahan only makes half as much as Fowler and both are signed for 2 more years. I doubt that Sheahan+Mantha gets it done for Detroit. Tatar is the one getting moved in any deal for a D man regardless if it's Fowler or Shattenkirk he's just the most expendable one here. Sheahan+Mantha for Fowler doubt it works cap wise for Detroit even Tatar is a little bit better only $1.25M between what Fowler makes and what Tatar makes.

I'm not 100% sure of the Wings cap situation. I know you guys are up against it, but don't you guys have some players heading towards LTIR?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I'd pass on that deal. I'd pass on Fowler for Tatar straight up. D is a more important position then W. Fowler is a top pairing D. Meanwhile, Tatar's numbers last season weren't great. Unless Tatar has another 30-30 season, we'd definitely be worse off for doing that deal. Too much risk for us.

Like I've said already, we aren't going to value Mantha or AA the way DET fans will because they're unknowns. The way I look at it, they're either movable or their not. If they're not, it really doesn't matter what we throw at DET, they aren't being moved. I don't quite think that's the case. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Holland feels about Mantha and AA the same way BM feels about Montour i.e. they're movable in the right circumstances.

You keep doing this in terms of last year. Okay Tatar is your second leading goal scorer last year with that dismal downturn at the same amount as Kesler...

Also lets not pretend Fowler's year was spectacular either. He has had his points go down for the third straight year. He has been passed offensively by two other D-man on your team who I know we all like a great deal and you should. Fowler's career high in points remains his rookie season. I like where his game has progressed defensively since then, while not a world beater he is very solid there now most nights. But it has come at the impact of his offense somewhat.

In any event, I remain unmoved that the difference between Tatar and Fowler is a Top 3 prospect in our system. Fowler is better there needs to be an add. That add probably shouldn't be one of the ten best pure skating prospects I have ever seen or the best physical and skill package the Wings have had in a prospect since Keith Primeau. Svechnikov I am more willing to bend on and not demand Montour back. Realistically I don't think AA can demand that back. But yes in my opinion the value for asking Tatar and Mantha is hopefully countered with Fowler and Montour.

I actually think the bigger problem with trading for Tatar in terms of the Ducks is for a budget team if he rips it up you have to pay him immediately. I could see them targeting Nyquist for that reason as they know the cost with certainty moving forward. Basically Tatar is similar to Palmieri with more consistency previous to the big breakout by Palmieri. But if Anaheim moved Palmieri because they didn't want to pay him his next contract tough to see where Tatar fits in. If you trade for him and he actually nails down a big spot on the roster and does bang in 30 goals you have to pay him immediately, which might give them pause...

But we really don't know until Lindholm, DeKeyser and Mrazek are taken care of. It might become clear at that point which one of Tatar and Nyquist is the piece the Wings will need to part with as the front line player and where Anaheim's internal budget is at. Also I think the Wings brass slightly prefers Nyquist which means they see that as a bigger name to put out in the first place, where I would think that would absolutely wipe away the big three in the system from being talked about.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Again Fowler + Montour is a non starter.

If that's a deal breaker than so be it.

Fair enough, Then Mantha wont be included in any deal it's just Tatar+ for Cam Fowler don't know what the plus will be then.

 

[liquiduck]

Fair enough, Then Mantha wont be included in any deal it's just Tatar+ for Cam Fowler don't know what the plus will be then.

I'd still do Tatar + Sheahan, if we absolutely had too. It's not a deal I would pull the trigger on until I saw what we had upfront for a little during the season though.

Assuming that would be ok on Detroit's end.

Either that or Svechnikov

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'm not 100% sure of the Wings cap situation. I know you guys are up against it, but don't you guys have some players heading towards LTIR?

Yeah by the time we resign DeKeyser, Mrazek and Pulkkinen. We should be right at the 10% over threshold for the season. We'll pretty much put Franzen, Vitale and probably Pulkkinen on LTIR seeing that Pulkkinen is out 4-6 months after shoulder surgery but that's still going to make it tight. Pretty much need to do salary for salary here.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'd still do Tatar + Sheahan, if we absolutely had too. It's not a deal I would pull the trigger on until I saw what we had upfront for a little during the season though.

Assuming that would be ok on Detroit's end.

Either that or Svechnikov

Tatar+Sheahan for Fowler would be fine by me, Holland did give that new 5 year deal to Helm so i guess Helm if need be could take over 3rd line duties or possibly AA would take over 3rd line duties. Maybe with Holland giving Helm that 5 year deal maybe Holland plans on shopping Sheahan with Tatar that could be quite possible and that way both AA and Mantha could make the team. I would gladly do that deal.

 

[liquiduck]

You keep doing this in terms of last year. Okay Tatar is your second leading goal scorer last year with that dismal downturn at the same amount as Kesler...

Also lets not pretend Fowler's year was spectacular either. He has had his points go down for the third straight year. He has been passed offensively by two other D-man on your team who I know we all like a great deal and you should. Fowler's career high in points remains his rookie season. I like where his game has progressed defensively since then, while not a world beater he is very solid there now most nights. But it has come at the impact of his offense somewhat.

In any event, I remain unmoved that the difference between Tatar and Fowler is a Top 3 prospect in our system. Fowler is better there needs to be an add. That add probably shouldn't be one of the ten best pure skating prospects I have ever seen or the best physical and skill package the Wings have had in a prospect since Keith Primeau. Svechnikov I am more willing to bend on and not demand Montour back. Realistically I don't think AA can demand that back. But yes in my opinion the value for asking Tatar and Mantha is hopefully countered with Fowler and Montour.

I actually think the bigger problem with trading for Tatar in terms of the Ducks is for a budget team if he rips it up you have to pay him immediately. I could see them targeting Nyquist for that reason as they know the cost with certainty moving forward. Basically Tatar is similar to Palmieri with more consistency previous to the big breakout by Palmieri. But if Anaheim moved Palmieri because they didn't want to pay him his next contract tough to see where Tatar fits in. If you trade for him and he actually nails down a big spot on the roster and does bang in 30 goals you have to pay him immediately, which might give them pause...

But we really don't know until Lindholm, DeKeyser and Mrazek are taken care of. It might become clear at that point which one of Tatar and Nyquist is the piece the Wings will need to part with as the front line player and where Anaheim's internal budget is at. Also I think the Wings brass slightly prefers Nyquist which means they see that as a bigger name to put out in the first place, where I would think that would absolutely wipe away the big three in the system from being talked about.

Fair enough. I can see why Detroit would be hesitant. There are some hesitations on our side too. This is a tough trade. There is a base to get something done here, but i get the feeling one of the fanbases is going to be slightly peeved if a deal goes down.

 

[Sojourn]

You keep doing this in terms of last year. Okay Tatar is your second leading goal scorer last year with that dismal downturn at the same amount as Kesler...

Also lets not pretend Fowler's year was spectacular either. He has had his points go down for the third straight year. He has been passed offensively by two other D-man on your team who I know we all like a great deal and you should. Fowler's career high in points remains his rookie season. I like where his game has progressed defensively since then, while not a world beater he is very solid there now most nights. But it has come at the impact of his offense somewhat.

In any event, I remain unmoved that the difference between Tatar and Fowler is a Top 3 prospect in our system. Fowler is better their needs to be an add. That add probably shouldn't be one of the ten best pure skating prospects I have ever seen or the best physical and skill package the Wings have had in a prospect since Keith Primeau. Svechnikov I am more willing to bend on and not demand Montour back. Realistically I don't think AA can demand that back. But yes in my opinion the value for asking Tatar and Mantha is hopefully countered with Fowler and Montour.

I actually think the bigger problem with trading for Tatar in terms of the Ducks is for a budget team if he rips it up you have to pay him immediately. I could see them targeting Nyquist for that reason as they know the cost with certainty moving forward. Basically Tatar is similar to Palmieri with more consistency previous to the big breakout by Palmieri. But if Anaheim moved Palmieri because they didn't want to pay him his next contract tough to see where Tatar fits in. If you trade for him and he actually nails down a big spot on the roster and does bang in 30 goals you have to pay him immediately, which might give them pause...

But we really don't know until Lindholm, DeKeyser and Mrazek are taken care of. It might become clear at that point which one of Tatar and Nyquist is the piece the Wings will need to part with as the front line player and where Anaheim's internal budget is at. Also I think the Wings brass slightly prefers Nyquist which means they see that as a bigger name to put out in the first place, where I would think that would absolutely wipe away the big three in the system from being talked about.

How can you justify saying he's been passed by two defensemen offensively? Lindholm had exactly the same amount of points, in more games. He had one less ESP than Lindholm, in less games. Offensively speaking, Lindholm had more opportunity at even strength, while Fowler had more opportunity on the PP. And as for his career numbers, they were right on pace with the previous season. Despite the team scoring at a lower pace than the previous year.

The only defenseman who has passed him offensively is Sami Vatanen, and Vatanen was pretty much used in as many offensive situations as Boudreau could afford to use him. As dynamic as Sami is offensively, the actual results of his offense still leave something to be desired. My biggest concern with him is that in a more demanding defensive role, he'll struggle to be as effective offensively.

 

[caliamad]

Tatar + sheahan is a pretty good win now trade, I'd still prefer Sheahan + Mantha but I'd probably take that if I could get better somewhere else.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Fair enough. I can see why Detroit would be hesitant. There are some hesitations on our side too. This is a tough trade. There is a base to get something done hear, but i get the feeling one of the fanbases is going to be slightly peeved if a deal goes down.

Good news for you is given the market it probably will be us since we are adding the D-man.

Just really against adding Mantha or AA if we are already including one of our top two goal scorers from the last three seasons which is what Nyquist/Tatar are.

It is almost at times I think because the Detroit fan-base has made peace with the fact one needs to move and I get that the winger value is less but they are being devalued a little in my opinion.

The other interesting thing is as slighter guys I see them flourishing in the bigger Anaheim lineup. They do a ton of damage when they are freed up a little. Anaheim has two centers albeit through different means that open up tons of space in the offensive zone.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

I'd pass on that deal. I'd pass on Fowler for Tatar straight up. D is a more important position then W. Fowler is a top pairing D. Meanwhile, Tatar's numbers last season weren't great. Unless Tatar has another 30-30 season, we'd definitely be worse off for doing that deal. Too much risk for us.

Like I've said already, we aren't going to value Mantha or AA the way DET fans will because they're unknowns. The way I look at it, they're either movable or their not. If they're not, it really doesn't matter what we throw at DET, they aren't being moved. I don't quite think that's the case. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Holland feels about Mantha and AA the same way BM feels about Montour i.e. they're movable in the right circumstances.



Agreed. I suspect that Montour will be kept around and put on roster after the expansion draft.

You do realize the reason that Tatar's number weren't great was because of a new coach plus he was only getting about 14 minutes per night on the 3rd line with Nyquist plus Sheahan. And Tatar was nursing a bad shoulder the entire season and yet only missed 1 game due to illness and still put up 21 goals 24 assists for 45 points not to bad considering the actual minutes he was getting each night. I more or less blame Blashill for his not so great numbers Blashill was shuffling lines far too much.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How can you justify saying he's been passed by two defensemen offensively? Lindholm had exactly the same amount of points, in more games. He had one less ESP than Lindholm, in less games. Offensively speaking, Lindholm had more opportunity at even strength, while Fowler had more opportunity on the PP. And as for his career numbers, they were right on pace with the previous season. Despite the team scoring at a lower pace than the previous year.

The only defenseman who has passed him offensively is Sami Vatanen, and Vatanen was pretty much used in as many offensive situations as Boudreau could afford to use him. As dynamic as Sami is offensively, the actual results of his offense still leave something to be desired. My biggest concern with him is that in a more demanding defensive role, he'll struggle to be as effective offensively.

I think Lindholm is a better player in all zones honestly. That is just when i watch them play. But I am huge Lindholm fan, is probably one of my five favorite D-man in the league. Getting him more PP time I think is a part of the idea of moving Fowler.

I just think offensively Lindholm is approaching a massive jump. I like Fowler's offense, heck that is the reason the Wings need him. I just think he has been passed by the other two. Theodore and Montour are also very skilled guys. So figuring out balancing all that time is going to get tough shortly in any event. But I would like to see Lindholm get a bigger crack at more offensive situations. Hopefully it happens under Randy 2.0

 

[mytduxfan*]

Maybe something around like this might work for both teams.

Detroit Red Wings- Fowler+Montour

Anaheim Ducks- Tatar+Mantha+Detroit's 2nd or 3rd round pick

But bottom line if Anaheim gets both Tatar and Mantha then Detroit is getting both Fowler+Montour and Detroit can add a decent pick to even it up.

Why do you keep shoving picks down our throats? We don't need more weak picks.

Fair enough, But Sheahan only makes half as much as Fowler and both are signed for 2 more years. I doubt that Sheahan+Mantha gets it done for Detroit. Tatar is the one getting moved in any deal for a D man regardless if it's Fowler or Shattenkirk he's just the most expendable one here. Sheahan+Mantha for Fowler doubt it works cap wise for Detroit even Tatar is a little bit better only $1.25M between what Fowler makes and what Tatar makes.

I don't get it. Tatar is so important to your scoring, but he's expendable. You see, this is the difference. Fowler isn't expendable to us. We could actually really use him. The problem is that we have terrible contracts, an internal budget and an expansion draft to think about. If Tatar truly is expendable, I don't see BM moving Fowler for anything less then Tatar + a decent add (not a 2nd and not a struggling prospect in Pulk).

You keep doing this in terms of last year. Okay Tatar is your second leading goal scorer last year with that dismal downturn at the same amount as Kesler...

Also lets not pretend Fowler's year was spectacular either. He has had his points go down for third straight year. He has been passed offensively by two other D-man on your team who I know we all like a great deal and you should. Fowler's career high in points remains his rookie season. I like where his game has progressed defensively since then, while not a world beater he is very solid there now most nights. But it has come at the impact of his offense somewhat.

In any event, I remain unmoved that the difference between Tatar and Fowler is a Top 3 prospect in our system. Fowler is better their needs to be an add. That add probably shouldn't be one of the ten best pure skating prospects I have ever seen or the best physical and skill package the Wings have had in a prospect since Keith Primeau. Svechnikov I am more willing to bend on and not demand Montour back. Realistically I don't think AA can demand that back. But yes in my opinion the value for asking Tatar and Mantha is hopefully countered with Fowler and Montour.

I actually think the bigger problem with trading for Tatar in terms of the Ducks is for a budget team if he rips it up you have to pay him immediately. I could see them targeting Nyquist for that reason as they know the cost with certainty moving forward. Basically Tatar is similar to Palmieri with more consistency previous to the big breakout by Palmieri. But if Anaheim moved Palmieri because they didn't want to pay him his next contract tough to see where Tatar fits in. If you trade for him and he actually nails down a big spot on the roster and does bang in 30 goals you have to pay him immediately, which might give them pause...

But we really don't know until Lindholm, DeKeyser and Mrazek are taken care of. It might become clear at that point which one of Tatar and Nyquist is the piece the Wings will need to part with as the front line player and where Anaheim's internal budget is at. Also I think the Wings brass slightly prefers Nyquist which means they see that as a bigger name to put out in the first place, where I would think that would absolutely wipe away the big three in the system from being talked about.

That doesn't mean anything to us. By NHL standards, Mantha isn't that great of a prospect. Anyway, I'm tired a dogging on the kid. He'd be a solid pick-up for us. I clearly just don't value him the way you do and I'm certain that if Holland sees him as movable, he doesn't value him the way you do either. If he's not movable, then he's not movable and it really doesn't matter.

Tatar is like Palms and that's my concern. Palms got mauled in the West and that's mostly why he was moved, that and we had no place for him in our top 6. I worry Tatar is due the same fate. Neither Palms nor Tatar excel along the boards and need space in order to be effective. I'm just not confident that Tatar will be as successful in the West as he was in the East. That's another reason I'd want Mantha or AA.

Re-signing Tatar shouldn't be a problem. We're likely going to buyout Bieksa if he doesn't waive, saving us $, and we'll likely lose Despres' contract in the expansion draft. Not to mention that Thompson's 1.6M contract and Garbutt's 0.9M contract comes off the books next season and we don't have any signings to make either, except maybe Bernier (however, I suspect we move on with Gibson as our #1GT). However, Nyquist could be a possible target. He's Swedish, so it makes sense on that level.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You do realize the reason that Tatar's number weren't great was because of a new coach plus he was only getting about 14 minutes per night on the 3rd line with Nyquist plus Sheahan. And Tatar was nursing a bad shoulder the entire season and yet only missed 1 game due to illness and still put up 21 goals 24 assists for 45 points not to bad considering the actual minutes he was getting each night. I more or less blame Blashill for his not so great numbers Blashill was shuffling lines far too much.

The one part not being brought up a lot is the problems in Tatar's game. He can be a gambler in terms of the reads he makes and his hyper aggressive offensive nature does get him into trouble at times. Tatar was benched at times by Babcock too though it seems people forget that now. Honestly hoped for more growth in terms of the puck management. It has gotten better, but he needs to take another step there regardless of where he plays next season.

Hopefully the shoulder played a part in that in all honesty. As he got caught too often holding the puck when he shouldn't or trying for a ridiculous pass. He still produced and that is why I don't worry about saying I think he is a high 20 goal scorer at least if he is in the right situation. But Tats needs to do more at times in terms of truly valuing the puck and not trying to make everything look so amazing. The simple play and finish needs to happen more often with him in my opinion.

 

[mytduxfan*]

You do realize the reason that Tatar's number weren't great was because of a new coach plus he was only getting about 14 minutes per night on the 3rd line with Nyquist plus Sheahan. And Tatar was nursing a bad shoulder the entire season and yet only missed 1 game due to illness and still put up 21 goals 24 assists for 45 points not to bad considering the actual minutes he was getting each night. I more or less blame Blashill for his not so great numbers Blashill was shuffling lines far too much.

I do.

 

[Sojourn]

I think Lindholm is a better player in all zones honestly. That is just when i watch them play. But I am huge Lindholm fan, is probably one of my five favorite D-man in the league. Getting him more PP time I think is a part of the idea of moving Fowler.

I just think offensively Lindholm is approaching a massive jump. I like Fowler's offense, heck that is the reason the Wings need him. I just think he has been passed by the other two. Theodore and Montour are also very skilled guys. So figuring out balancing all that time is going to get tough shortly in any event. But I would like to see Lindholm get a bigger crack at more offensive situations. Hopefully it happens under Randy 2.0

Lindholm is better at taking shots from the blue line, but as far as actually moving the puck and creating offense, he's still a bit clumsy. He isn't an especially creative guy. Offensively speaking, Fowler still has an edge. Lindholm might break out the way you're describing, but it's more likely Theodore will be the guy taking Fowler's spot on the PP. Lindholm will still be on the 2nd unit, if Vatanen and Theodore are on the roster. I don't think what you're expecting is going to happen, and he had ample offensive opportunity under Boudreau at even strength.

Theodore and Montour are different matters, and that's more or less why I've always been a proponent of moving Vatanen over Fowler. You still need to play defense. With Theodore and Vatanen on the roster, who do you think is going to get most of the offensive opportunities? Who will be seeing the heaviest D responsibilities? Fowler being on the team actually opened the door for Lindholm offensively at even strength. It didn't close it. And on the PP, Lindholm just hasn't shown enough to justify the time over Theodore and Vatanen.

I think Lindholm can be a solid contributor, but I'm not seeing a big breakout offensively. I'd be surprised if he ever became a guy who could put together multiple 40-point seasons. Which is pretty much why I don't think he's the Norris quality, elite #1 that some seem to be claiming. I'd love to be wrong, but based on what I've seen from him so far, I don't see a 50-point season in his career, if he's also getting the toughest D responsibilities, and that's exactly what he'd be asked to play because no other pairing will be able to handle it.

Edit: Objectively, I don't see Lindholm becoming that guy, unless he can somehow develop that type of laser beam slap shot that Lidstrom had. He's clearly an intelligent player, and he skates well, but he's not as dangerous with the puck. He's intelligent in how he shoots, but the shot itself isn't that great.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Why do you keep shoving picks down our throats? We don't need more weak picks.



I don't get it. Tatar is so important to your scoring, but he's expendable. You see, this is the difference. Fowler isn't expendable to us. We could actually really use him. The problem is that we have terrible contracts, an internal budget and an expansion draft to think about. If Tatar truly is expendable, I don't see BM moving Fowler for anything less then Tatar + a decent add (not a 2nd and not a struggling prospect in Pulk).



That doesn't mean anything to us. By NHL standards, Mantha isn't that great of a prospect. Anyway, I'm tired a dogging on the kid. He'd be a solid pick-up for us. I clearly just don't value him the way you do and I'm certain that if Holland sees him as movable, he doesn't value him the way you do either. If he's not movable, then he's not movable and it really doesn't matter.

Tatar is like Palms and that's my concern. Palms got mauled in the West and that's mostly why he was moved, that and we had no place for him in our top 6. I worry Tatar is due the same fate. Neither Palms nor Tatar excel along the boards and need space in order to be effective. I'm just not confident that Tatar will be as successful in the West as he was in the East. That's another reason I'd want Mantha or AA.

Re-signing Tatar shouldn't be a problem. We're likely going to buyout Bieksa if he doesn't waive, saving us $, and we'll likely lose Despres' contract in the expansion draft. Not to mention that Thompson's 1.6M contract and Garbutt's 0.9M contract comes off the books next season and we don't have any signings to make either, except maybe Bernier (however, I suspect we move on with Gibson as our #1GT). However, Nyquist could be a possible target. He's Swedish, so it makes sense on that level.

A 6'5" 220 lbs 1st round pure goal scorer with plus skating isn't that great of a prospect? Just like Mantha wasn't as good in terms of where he landed when he was winning CHL player of the year, he also isn't outside any top 20 or 30 list more than likely when any team is evaluating prospects. What he possess is incredibly rare, he is the Wings best prospect and remains one of the better ones in hockey.

Hey you want Mantha for Fowler I will cringe and do it, you just won't be getting much else, certainly not one of our top two goal scorers over the last three years to go along with it...

Saying Mantha isn't much of a prospect in NHL circles doesn't make a lot of sense and it does sound like you are bagging on him or I guess nicely just stat watching. When you see him play you understand exactly why he is a big deal, especially considering his one problem in junior consistency has really gone away where last season night in and night out he was the best player on ice for either team during his AHL game. What did he do in his ten game cameo, not a ton, but he generated chances and his long reach helped constantly scramble pucks on the PP which went from anemic all year to clicking on all cylinders while he was up. He is a very good player, he isn't the add unless something significant along with Fowler is coming, like I said Montour and Fowler is what it takes for me to table Tatar and Mantha.

It is hard to tell how the Wings view Mantha there, no Wings fan will tell you different. I think a lot of us hope some of the strange comments are tough love, but there is a strange dynamic there. They pretty much are always saying you should be the best every night by a considerable margin seems to be the message going to him. So I think they value his talent an incredible amount, but I think lots of players are more movable than many fans want.

Like I don't like AA as the add here. But he is movable in the right deal with the right value and a lot of Wings fans would riot if they saw him go.

 

[liquiduck]

A 6'5" 220 lbs 1st round pure goal scorer with plus skating isn't that great of a prospect? Just like Mantha wasn't as good in terms of where he landed when he was winning CHL player of the year, he also isn't outside any top 20 or 30 list more than likely when any team is evaluating prospects. What he possess is incredibly rare, he is the Wings best prospect and remains one of the better ones in hockey.

Hey you want Mantha for Fowler I will cringe and do it, you just won't be getting much else, certainly not one of our top two goal scorers over the last three years to go along with it...

Saying Mantha isn't much of a prospect in NHL circles doesn't make a lot of sense and it does sound like you are bagging on him or I guess nicely just stat watching. When you see him play you understand exactly why he is a big deal, especially considering his one problem in junior consistency has really gone away where last season night in and night out he was the best player on ice for either team during his AHL game. What did he do in his ten game cameo, not a ton, but he generated chances and his long reach helped constantly scramble pucks on the PP which went from anemic all year to clicking on all cylinders while he was up. He is a very good player, he isn't the add unless something significant along with Fowler is coming, like I said Montour and Fowler is what it takes for me to table Tatar and Mantha.

If Anaheim was going to do something like that they would just deal Montour for Mantha straight up.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Lindholm is better at taking shots from the blue line, but as far as actually moving the puck and creating offense, he's still a bit clumsy. He isn't an especially creative guy. Offensively speaking, Fowler still has an edge. Lindholm might break out the way you're describing, but it's more likely Theodore will be the guy taking Fowler's spot on the PP. Lindholm will still be on the 2nd unit, if Vatanen and Theodore are on the roster. I don't think what you're expecting is going to happen, and he had ample offensive opportunity under Boudreau at even strength.

Theodore and Montour are different matters, and that's more or less why I've always been a proponent of moving Vatanen over Fowler. You still need to play defense. With Theodore and Vatanen on the roster, who do you think is going to get most of the offensive opportunities? Who will be seeing the heaviest D responsibilities? Fowler being on the team actually opened the door for Lindholm offensively at even strength. It didn't close it. And on the PP, Lindholm just hasn't shown enough to justify the time over Theodore and Vatanen.

I think Lindholm can be a solid contributor, but I'm not seeing a big breakout offensively. I'd be surprised if he ever became a guy who could put together multiple 40-point seasons. Which is pretty much why I don't think he's the Norris quality, elite #1 that some seem to be claiming. I'd love to be wrong, but based on what I've seen from him so far, I don't see a 50-point season in his career, if he's also getting the toughest D responsibilities, and that's exactly what he'd be asked to play because no other pairing will be able to handle it.

Edit: Objectively, I don't see Lindholm becoming that guy, unless he can somehow develop that type of laser beam slap shot that Lidstrom had. He's clearly an intelligent player, and he skates well, but he's not as dangerous with the puck. He's intelligent in how he shoots, but the shot itself isn't that great.

I like the way he reads the game when I watch him. I will admit I watched a decent amount of Ducks hockey last year with center ice and he is a big reason why. He is a very fluid defender that makes a ton of right decisions all over the ice. That getting the pucks through thing is huge, he has that skill and it is getting better.

I think he is going to be a very good #1, top 10 kind of guy. Not sure about the Norris as like you said there are parts of his game that are not dynamic on the offensive end. But you know who has been like that for years... Ryan Suter. I see a lot of the positional awareness, right amount of bite, effortless skating and the ability to repeatedly make the right read, the right pass with the right amount of weight and just put the puck on net to create scrambles. Love his game, hope he maxes his potential, don't care that it isn't for my team, he is just a rock-solid smart defender that does it all. I think he breaks out more offensively.

Also doesn't Getzlaf play the PP point a decent amount? I know he drifts high a decent amount regardless but I thought that was his position at least I mean that is what I remember when watching. See I would run Theodore with Vatanen on unit #2 and keep Lindholm with Getzlaf on the other point. Allow Getzlaf to be even more aggressive and they are the best two passers on your team in my opinion, it would really stress out teams.

 

[KJoe88]

I would not include Mantha in a deal for Fowler. In my view he's the next version of Franzen, a kind of player the Wings need.. Big with a scoring touch and can take over games if he's not floating.

I would like to think Mantha is an untouchable unless it's for a 1A defenseman. The Wings can use Mantha for a better defenseman. Imo...

 

[mytduxfan*]

A 6'5" 220 lbs 1st round pure goal scorer with plus skating isn't that great of a prospect? Just like Mantha wasn't as good in terms of where he landed when he was winning CHL player of the year, he also isn't outside any top 20 or 30 list more than likely when any team is evaluating prospects. What he possess is incredibly rare, he is the Wings best prospect and remains one of the better ones in hockey.

Hey you want Mantha for Fowler I will cringe and do it, you just won't be getting much else, certainly not one of our top two goal scorers over the last three years to go along with it...

Saying Mantha isn't much of a prospect in NHL circles doesn't make a lot of sense and it does sound like you are bagging on him or I guess nicely just stat watching. When you see him play you understand exactly why he is a big deal, especially considering his one problem in junior consistency has really gone away where last season night in and night out he was the best player on ice for either team during his AHL game. What did he do in his ten game cameo, not a ton, but he generated chances and his long reach helped constantly scramble pucks on the PP which went from anemic all year to clicking on all cylinders while he was up. He is a very good player, he isn't the add unless something significant along with Fowler is coming, like I said Montour and Fowler is what it takes for me to table Tatar and Mantha.

It is hard to tell how the Wings view Mantha there, no Wings fan will tell you different. I think a lot of us hope some of the strange comments are tough love, but there is a strange dynamic there. They pretty much are always saying you should be the best every night by a considerable margin seems to be the message going to him. So I think they value his talent an incredible amount, but I think lots of players are more movable than many fans want.

Like I don't like AA as the add here. But he is movable in the right deal with the right value and a lot of Wings fans would riot if they saw him go.

Fine, keep Mantha. Add AA instead. I don't really know what you're expecting Fowler to cost. I don't think Tatar+ a small add is enough. Good D-men are expensive. It's arguably the most important position on any team. I don't know whether what I want is realistic, but I don't think it's crazy either.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

You keep doing this in terms of last year. Okay Tatar is your second leading goal scorer last year with that dismal downturn at the same amount as Kesler...

Also lets not pretend Fowler's year was spectacular either. He has had his points go down for the third straight year. He has been passed offensively by two other D-man on your team who I know we all like a great deal and you should. Fowler's career high in points remains his rookie season. I like where his game has progressed defensively since then, while not a world beater he is very solid there now most nights. But it has come at the impact of his offense somewhat.

fowler was having a very good season until he got hurt, after that his play was up and down, you reference his point total but he also played 11 fewer games due to said injury.

In any event, I remain unmoved that the difference between Tatar and Fowler is a Top 3 prospect in our system. Fowler is better there needs to be an add. That add probably shouldn't be one of the ten best pure skating prospects I have ever seen or the best physical and skill package the Wings have had in a prospect since Keith Primeau. Svechnikov I am more willing to bend on and not demand Montour back. Realistically I don't think AA can demand that back. But yes in my opinion the value for asking Tatar and Mantha is hopefully countered with Fowler and Montour.

I actually think the bigger problem with trading for Tatar in terms of the Ducks is for a budget team if he rips it up you have to pay him immediately. I could see them targeting Nyquist for that reason as they know the cost with certainty moving forward. Basically Tatar is similar to Palmieri with more consistency previous to the big breakout by Palmieri. But if Anaheim moved Palmieri because they didn't want to pay him his next contract tough to see where Tatar fits in. If you trade for him and he actually nails down a big spot on the roster and does bang in 30 goals you have to pay him immediately, which might give them pause...

But we really don't know until Lindholm, DeKeyser and Mrazek are taken care of. It might become clear at that point which one of Tatar and Nyquist is the piece the Wings will need to part with as the front line player and where Anaheim's internal budget is at. Also I think the Wings brass slightly prefers Nyquist which means they see that as a bigger name to put out in the first place, where I would think that would absolutely wipe away the big three in the system from being talked about.

tatar wont work for the ducks with his contract status and as a small forward probably does not fit what the team needs, mantha is probably a player the ducks would target

 

[drw02]

fowler was having a very good season until he got hurt, after that his play was up and down, you reference his point total but he also played 11 fewer games due to said injury.




tatar wont work for the ducks with his contract status and as a small forward probably does not fit what the team needs, mantha is probably a player the ducks would target

What's wrong with his contract status? He's not gonna be due some hefty raise, you could probably sign him long term for like 1M more than he makes now. You don't have to be big to be successful in the NHL. I think Ducks would be alright with one player who is 5-10. I look at Ducks roster and see a good top line, stacked defense and a desperate need for secondary scoring. Honestly think Tatar would fit in great for you guys. He may not be big but he's not what I would call soft. He'll play in the corners, he'll crash the net, he'll muck it up a little.

As far as Mantha he's not proven, which seems to be one of the more important factors for most Ducks fans.

 

[duckpuck]

Detroit fans seem to be missing two key points in this thread: (i) a significant part of Fowler's value is his very reasonable contract for the next two years; and (ii) as a budget team with some big salaries (Getz, Kessler, Perry and soon to be Lindholm) and young players due raises, they cannot deal away prospects like Montour unless there is cheap and ELITE talent coming back.

Is Fowler better than Shattenkirk? No. But Shattenkirk is making $5.2M next year and then is a UFA who will make $6M+ with a lot of term (and he might not resign with the team that trades for him). Fowler is signed for $4M for the next two years and will probably sign for less than Shattenkirk after that (and probably would give his hometown team Detroit a bit of a discount). In a vacuum, everyone takes Shattenkirk - but he costs you AT LEAST $3M more in the next two years and more after that. In a salary cap world, Fowler has a ton of value, because he's a pretty good player with a really good contract which has a lot of value for teams up against the cap.

Bottom line - if Detroit wants a defenseman like Fowler, young talent like AA or Mantha has to come back. The ducks don't have to trade him - he is a useful part of their team and he will likely have significant value at the trade deadline or even next off-season. The reason they are willing to trade him is that they have lots of NHL defensemen and lots of D prospects on the way and a real need for forwards (particularly low salaried). Deal from depth to balance the roster.

I recognize Detroit and its fans really like AA and Mantha - but given your roster and the free agent forwards you just signed, it seems pretty obvious that trading one or both of those guys is the smartest (and perhaps only) way to get back a useful piece like Fowler. Maybe Detroit doesn't need a top 2-3 defensemen - your GM says you don't but your roster suggests you do. Like the ducks, Detroit needs to deal excess pieces.