We don't need futures and not all of Sheahan, AA and Mantha can play unless you're sitting some else who shouldn't be sitting. It would certainly make more sense to move one in a deal for Fowler. I'm sure the Ducks would add if the value wasn't there. However, I don't see that being the case. Tatar has been a 20-20 guy more then he's been a 30-30 guy, if you catch my drift.
Proposal: Detroit-Anaheim
- Thread starter dkollidas
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We don't need futures and not all of Sheahan, AA and Mantha can play unless you're sitting some else who shouldn't be sitting. It would certainly make more sense to move one in a deal for Fowler. I'm sure the Ducks would add if the value wasn't there. However, I don't see that being the case. Tatar has been a 20-20 guy more then he's been a 30-30 guy, if you catch my drift.
obey86
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To be fair, how many players in the NHL play 14 min/game and are 30-30 players?
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
Tatar has 39 points, 56 Points and 45 Points in his last 3 seasons with the Red Wings and pretty much most of last season was spent along with Nyquist and Sheahan on the 3rd line. Only getting 14 minutes per night so 45 Points isn't that bad plus he was playing with a bummed Shoulder so that was taking away his effectiveness as well. Not saying that Tatar is a 30-30 player but i think he's a little ahead of a 20-20 player maybe more like a 25-25 player when all is said and done he's only 25 will be 26 2 months after the season begins he still has a little time to get better.
I think that is wishful thinking. Tatar is 26 years old. He is what he is. I like him and I agree that he wasn't used to the best of his abilities last season, but we're not trading Fowler for what Tatar could have been, we're trading Fowler for what Tatar was. With that said, I think the value favours DET in a straight up deal. Hence, I don't think Fowler for Tatar + AA/Mantha is that far away. Maybe a mid pick goes to DET from ANA to even things up.
Hammettf2b
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Honestly, does that even matter? A GM is going to do what will help his team get better. Look at the Hall trade. I think people look too much into "value" as opposed to what makes the team better. Just my 2 cents.
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
None of us Wing fans, Have ever suggested a straight 1 for 1 on Tatar for Fowler. We all know that Fowler is worth more then just Tatar straight up. Tatar+Detroit's 2017 2nd round pick is way more then fair enough for Cam Fowler. I wouldn't be shocked that if Ken Holland and Bob Murray were speaking at the draft about Cam Fowler. Pretty sure that it started with Anthony Mantha as a potential target and i'm pretty sure that Holland said no. Mantha would be a decent target for Anaheim. But bottom line is there's no way Holland would do a Tatar+Mantha/AA for Cam Fowler we should be able to get Shattenkirk with an extension for that. And Shatty would make far more sense for us seeing that we really need RHD.
Swapping Tatar for Fowler straight up doesn't make our team better. In fact it likely makes us worse.
What would Anaheim have to throw in to make that work then?
Det 2nd round pick is almost meaningless to Anaheim .
They look at both actually. However, even if we only look at what makes our team better, moving Fowler for Tatar doesn't. We'd be taking a huge hit on the back-end that Tatar isn't going to counter. We're in a fortunate situation that Theodore is developing nicely and seems to be on track to replace what Fowler leaves behind, but that's certainly not going to be next year. Hence, I'd want something added, like a young, contributing forward in AA or Mantha, to sweeten the pot. I still think we end up worse off from the deal, but that's made up by the fact that we save some salary and get a nice piece for the future. If we're strictly talking about making the Ducks better, I'd keep Fowler and offer you Despres for Tatar straight up. However, that's not fair value. So value is important, as is considering for each others needs.
Well given that STL reportedly asked for 2 x 1st + Pastrnak from BOS for Shatty without an extension, I doubt Tatar + Mantha/AA gets an extended Shatty.
How are you valuing Mantha and AA here? They're both unknowns. For that reason, it's difficult to value them. The way I see it, they're either movable or not. If Holland is willing to move one of them, I see no reason why he wouldn't add them to the deal. They don't have the value you think. However, if they're not movable, they're not going to be moved.
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
What do you think would be a fair offer for Cam Fowler from Detroit adding on to Tatar? Bottom line i seriously doubt that Holland would add either one of Mantha/AA plus Tatar for Fowler. I can see a deal around Tatar+Mantha/AA for a signed Kevin Shattenkirk who fills more of a need then Cam Fowler does we need more RHD not LHD. You should already have another D man that could step right in and fill Fowler's shoes so i can't see where Tatar would be a downgrade then. I losing Fowler hurts to much and you don't have a decent replacement then he shouldn't be moved then am i right.
KJoe88
Forever Lost.
I don't think it's wishful thinking at all.
I think he can be a 30-30 guy. Just because he's 26 doesn't mean he is what he is. Some players have gotten better as they've gotten older and suddenly get it. I'm personally against trading Nyquist at all as a Wings because there's more to him than what he's delivered so far.
Tatar + 2nd for Fowler is good value. Though, I'm also willing to go more on Detroit's side.
I`m sold! If you think he can be a 30-30 guy, let`s do the deal that`s enough evidence
We don't have anyone that can step in right away and do what Fowler does.
You are asking a team trying to win now to trade it's at worst, second best defensemen.
I'm not sure what would be considered a fair deal, but Tatar + 2nd doesn't make me pull the trigger.
KJoe88
Forever Lost.
I`m sold! If you think he can be a 30-30 guy, let`s do the deal that`s enough evidence
My thinking is watching his play from a fan perspective.
He's played on the 3rd line scoring at a 45P pace. He'll score more with more minutes.
I don't want to give him up, but the Wings need defense and I value Mantha and AA more. Doesn't mean my 'thinking' is false evidence or that I think any less of Tatar.
He notched 56P on a mediocre Wings team before last season and scored 21G last season on a severely handicapped offensive Wings team. That's four points shy of 60P two seasons ago. Not a DRAMATIC difference, no?
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Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
And Blues GM Doug Armstrong admittedly said that he way overvalued Shattenkirk here, No way in the world was Armstrong going to get 2 1st plus Pastrnak for Shattenkirk for 1 year who may or may not resign with Boston. Things will be far different the closer to training camp we get prices should come quite a bit one would think. RHD are in the premium right now suffice to say that RHD since there's so few of them would cost a GM an arm and a leg.
Agreed, however, I could easily counter that by saying Fowler is better suited for the East. He excels in his skating and one of his only real criticisms is the fact he tends to shy away from physical contact. In addition, he would either be in a lesser role behind Kronwall or on the top pairing playing with someone better then Bieska. In either scenario, he'd be in a better position to succeed then he is here.
That kind of "I expect him to be better on your team" goes both ways. However, it's all just a bunch of maybe. No one knows for sure whether what either of us have said is true or not. Hence, it really doesn't change the value of either player.
Fair enough. IMO, I think something may have already been agreed between DET and ANA. Makes too much sense with Fowler being a Michigan boy, DET stacking up on Fs, ANA stacking up on Ds, and the seemingly high asking price of Shatty. If Holland sees one of AA or Mantha as movable, I wouldn't be surprised to see them as part of the deal.
Number1RedWingsFan52
Registered User
Honestly i'm not sure right now if Holland is all that high on Mantha, I kind of get the feeling that he might be souring on him.
Maybe Holland agrees to deal based on Tatar+Mantha for Cam Fowler. That's a deal that could quite possibly happen.
Ken Holland loves his local kids, And with Fowler growing up in the Detroit area he's definitely a D man that i could see Holland targeting pretty easily.
And Fowler training in the off season in Detroit, And he does train with quite a few Red Wing players so it makes sense. That Holland would target him.
And have heard some speculations that Cam Fowler wouldn't mind coming home in the right situation. Holland would definitely groom him to be our future #1 D man i would believe so it makes perfect sense for both teams to try and get a deal done here. For all we know maybe a Tatar+Mantha deal for Cam Fowler could be done. And Ducks GM Bob Murray is just waiting on resigning Lindholm. Right now we just don't know until the Lindholm deal is finalized.
Mantha to ANA would make a lot of sense. We love those big kids. Him and Ritchie would make for a great LW-RW duo for many years to come. IMO, Tatar + Mantha for Fowler makes a lot of sense for both teams.
Tatar - Getzlaf - Perry
Cogliano - Kesler - Silfverberg
Ritchie - Rakell - Mantha
Garbutt - Wagner - Boll
Lindholm - Manson
Despres - Vatanen
Theodore - Bieska
Stoner
Gibson - Bernier
------
Zetterberg - Larkin - Nyquist
Abdelkador - Nielsen - Vanek
Helm - Sheahan - Athanasiou
Miller - Glendening - Jurco/Pulkkinen
Fowler - Kronwall
Dekeyser - Green
Ericsson - Marchenko
Smith
Mrazek - Howard
Could be. Think we'll see once Lindholm signs, which is when everyone speculates Fowler will be traded. BM said he'll match any offer, but shipping out Fowler prior to signing Lindholm gives Lindholm some leverage. You also run into the risk of a Weber RFA situation (not very likely since he's not at that level yet). Everyone, even Tatar himself, is speculating it'll be him moved for help on D. The question is what the + will be. It seems it'll be one of Mantha/AA/Sheahan/Svechnikov. It's also Anaheim adds slightly to balance the trade out. I think we've covered all possibly options till this point in the topic lol.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Given some of the perplexing comments management has let go on Mantha I think we are all worried. However, it is worth noting he was very strong in the post-season his mandate when going back down was to be the key cog in GR and he was in their playoff run. He has also been trotted out right away in all of his I am not moving him to do this conversations.
I am sure he is available for the right things, seriously doubt Fowler is one of them unless Tatar/Nyquist aren't in the deal anymore... Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the Ducks who want an established top 6 winger to help right now.
Fowler's situation would appear time sensitive though in that it seems all indications are that he will not be protected in the expansion draft. That doesn't mean the Ducks don't do something they don't want to, but a certain point in time Murray probably has to draw a line in the sand if the value is in the right ballpark.
I mean I hope they actually have something in the works and are just waiting on their RFA contracts to come in to finalize it. I still have doubts that if Nyquist/Tatar are going that Mantha/AA are involved at that point. Because a part of why you are comfortable doing this if you're Detroit is to slide them into the lineup with more responsibility.
There's no doubts that Fowler would be one of the 3 protected at the expansion draft. If they have to buy out Bieksa, then they'll do so (might even do so if Fowler is moved). Ducks are only entertaining the notion of trading Fowler due to the need for wings, so they won't move him if the price isn't right.
No he isn't.
Personally I wouldn't trade Tats and AA/Mantha for Fowler, maybe if he was the handedness and the side we actually need.
