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The person that chose to have them/ keep them on the team fed them insane amounts of cash/ hired the coach that's supposed to motive them and is in charge of shaking up the room if things go wrong never has any accountability
not much has gone wrong other than us just not winning in the playoffs. is it on the players or is it just bad luck? either way not like Leafs have had bum teams this entire time. Dubas has made a decent amount of good moves its just as much on the players to get it done at this point.
now should we make a core change? I dunno maybe depends what else we do but if we are just going to trade say Nylander for something I dont see how we end up being better afterwards.
good trades take patience rushing out to get something done is how you lose trades
is Dubas perfect? No obviously not but he's not as bad as majority of you guys make him out to be
Did you not watch the blowout 7-1 loss to the Wilkes Scranton Penguins?
Did you not watch the 5-1 and 5-2 losses to bottom-feeder Buffalo?
Did you not watch the 2 losses to bottom-feeder Arizona?
Did you not watch the multiple humiliating losses to bottom-feeder Montreal this past season?
What about the 8-1 loss to Tampa near the end of the year?
This team continues to play only when they feel like, and takes the night off whenever they think they can scrape by with minimal effort.
yeah good teams lose from time to time and in the regular season when you are basically playoff bound anyways its not the worst to take it easy against bottom feeders.... they rarely took a night off against playoff teams. take it easy they aren't gods they are people just like me and you.
sounds like just straight up speculation. sounds easier said than done as well. I mean im sure he could easily move guys like Nylander but I dont see how we are better afterwards,
well our core was basically all here before he became GM so I dunno Lou and Dubas
Do you really think we can build a contender with the way Dubas has spent on the core 4 guys. How much do you think a top goalie will cost and a top Dman
Do you really think we can build a contender with the way Dubas has spent on the core 4 guys. How much do you think a top goalie will cost and a top Dman
Well with the state of the NHL and the flat cap as much as people hate the idea I think its best to keep up what Dubas has been doing and wait for the cap the rise again. I dont see any trade where we end up better afterwards trading one of the core pieces.
The only trade that I wish we could do is move out Tavares's 11M but his full NTC makes it impossible.
moving Nylander is an option but even if we move him for a Dman VERY good chance its Hall-Larsson 2.0 except it ends up being even worse for Leafs
The cap was suppose to rise alot the first year covid came in Bettman was saying the cap was going to rise 3m
if that continued where the cap went up 2-3m every season Matthews,Marner,Nylander and Tavares cap hits would not be a problem at all.
not sure how reliable this source is but I remember reading this just before covid started
Toronto’s always had this weird fascination with obsessing over the GM and coach and failing to hold the players who actually play on the ice accountable.
It’s especially present in the dusty, jean jacket wearing, natty light drinking letterkenny/Sunnyvale Toronto sun reading part of the fan base who are threatened by kyles appearance as a GM, he’s not what these folks expect their hockey manager to look like so they pile on the nonsense.
Yeah probably. For me though, it wouldn't change the way I view the trade but that's me. Hindsight is great but whenever you make a trade, you can only make the best decision with the information you have at the time so I judge trades the same way. When the deal is made, I decide at that time if I like it or not and I don't change my assessment of the GM's decision years later.
1st round pick to dump Marleau, I thought that was a bit high but it cost what it cost I guess so I was fine with it.
1st round pick went in the Muzzin trade, great trade IMO. Almost everyone agreed at the time, now many of those same people are calling Dubas an idiot for making a trade they liked at the time.
1st round pick for Foligno. I didn't like it. I could understand it so it wasn't brutally awful or anything but still, I didn't like it.
Trading Kadri - I was fine with it. Kadri was my favourite player for years but if he's not eligible to play in the playoffs, what good is he? Then he went and got suspended again in Colorado, how anyone could say that was a dumb trade is beyond me. It had to be done, that's all there is to it and I assume Dubas got the best return he could get for who was at the time our 3rd line centre.
Signing Tavares - 99.9% of this board was celebrating when this happened and now, that signing has apparently set us back a decade. Shell out, shell out, the hypocrites are out!
I think most liked Muzzin at the time. The real drawback if there is one, is that making these excellent adds like him and Spezza and then not succeeding leaves no net value once the players decline. The goal is not to make a bunch of separate moves in isolation but to condense them into a period where they overlap and the club can win. The stressed cap has prevented the club from getting over the top and now the assets dealt to the Kings are looking better than the players they received. There is good value trades and then there is succeeding with that value. If Muzz's time passes with no 2nd round it will be good value with wasted assets at the same time but its misguided to not make the deals to make the club better because there is a chance you don't win the long game, thats the business.
Foligno was a bad deal and many could see it coming but it was a year to go for it and if he and JT had stayed healthy it may have looked a lot better. I thought he was kind of done at the time but just assumed the club knew better. I blame that one on the Leaf's pro scouting like the Thornton deal. These are the guys the GM relies on to decide how much game a trade target has left and they failed.
Kadri was an idiot and nobody expected him to be what he was this year but his deal deal was the best 2 for 1 plus retention and that goes back to the long term cost of JT.
Re: Tavares I did go back to see the postings here before they got him. (including my own) I would say there were more saying don't do it than to go ahead, with redundancy being the biggest complaint. Some high 5s afterwards but a good deal of apprehension and this was before the big 3 cost what they cost. Dubas could not have predicted Covid or the difficulty he would have with the big 3 deals and that's why he was not worried about the Marleau contract. I blame him but it wasn't a dumb move, just turned out to be the wrong move.
The Tavares signing can still be a net win so I am not among those that are dwelling on it, however JT did result in an unfortunate chain reaction of cap driven moves
Toronto’s always had this weird fascination with obsessing over the GM and coach and failing to hold the players who actually play on the ice accountable.
It’s especially present in the dusty, jean jacket wearing, natty light drinking letterkenny/Sunnyvale Toronto sun reading part of the fan base who are threatened by kyles appearance as a GM, he’s not what these folks expect their hockey manager to look like so they pile on the nonsense.
That’s all in your mind but keep generalizing. Who’s supposed to hold the players accountable? The fans? Isn’t that the GMs job???? No shit we’re focused on him since he hasn’t done anything to change anything of importance following year after year of playoff collapses.
But yeah I hate Kyle’s glasses that’s it! L.M.F.A.O you Dubasites have truly gone off the deep end at this point.
That’s all in your mind but keep generalizing. Who’s supposed to hold the players accountable? The fans? Isn’t that the GMs job???? No shit we’re focused on him since he hasn’t done anything to change anything of importance following year after year of playoff collapses.
But yeah I hate Kyle’s glasses that’s it! L.M.F.A.O you Dubasites have truly gone off the deep end at this point.
Re: Tavares I did go back to see the postings here before they got him. (including my own) I would say there were more saying don't do it than to go ahead, with redundancy being the biggest complaint. Some high 5s afterwards but a good deal of apprehension and this was before the big 3 cost what they cost. Dubas could not have predicted Covid or the difficulty he would have with the big 3 deals and that's why he was not worried about the Marleau contract. I blame him but it wasn't a dumb move, just turned out to be the wrong move.
The Tavares signing can still be a net win so I am not among those that are dwelling on it, however JT did result in an unfortunate chain reaction of cap driven moves
Not sure how you did that. Someone told me just the other day that the archives don't go back as far as they used to and I just did a search, the oldest thread I could find about JT was this:
#NHLTopPlayers: Top 20 Centers The most accurate and definitive list on the planet. It is basically gospel and cannot be challenged.
hfboards.mandatory.com
This of course was not long after the signing, the tone of the posts is quite positive from what I read (though I didn't read it all).
The way I remember it, the overall feeling when he signed was that people were thrilled. Not just a little bit positive, but thrilled. If you can use the search function better than I can than please give us a link and we can settle this once and for all.
I went through that thread I did find, I couldn't find one post that sounded even a little bit negative re. JT, here is an example of some posts that give an idea of the positive vibes at the time:
We have two top 10 centers in the league. One isn't 21 for 6 more weeks. Our 3rd line center is one of 8 centers to score 30 goals each of the past 2 years AND the main boards are salty AF. The Ballard curse isn't just over - it's in reverse!
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Yeah the mainboards are losing their minds. Its not even just us who are claiming we have two top centres anymore, its the NHL Network lol. Ask people on the mainboards on where Matthews should be ranked and they'll tell you 30th and below with a straight face.
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Irrational jealously, nothing more.
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Forget Matthews, even Tavares at 10 is some huge crime. Tavares was unanimously considered a top 10 C here before last season and many had him top 5.
That mainboards thread is another thread that will get bumped by Leaf fans when Matthews and Tavares are inevitably having terrific seasons. I can't wait to see the reactions then.
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Scheifele over Tavares, Stamkos gave me a good laugh.
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My first reaction to reading the thread title was: "well this will make the main board, and that special portion of the Leafs fanbase, upset for reasons that cannot quantify....just like last year."
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Tavares is better than Seguin.
It's sad isn't it. A rookie GM who stakes his career on his idea of what the core should be and a rookie president who hasn't seen a playoff round win in 8 years
IMO there was a plan A in place with Shanahan, Lou and Babcock
Dubas becomes GM and the plan changes to Plan B with Shanahan, Dubas, Keefe (3 years of them together now).
Results: Is there for everyone to see.
Some highlights:
Cap structure
Cap allocation
Quality depth
Contending Window (by this I mean terms handed out to Matthews, Marner for the cap hit they got)
Matthews and Willy 2 years away from UFA
Matthews will get a significant increase if he chooses to stay with the Leafs,
Marner UFA in 3 years
Both Marner and Matthews' NMC kicks in at the same time
Matthews in his last year of his contract with Marner in his 2nd last year of his contract
#1G, #1D still not available
Rielly is good, but a #1D with a point shot who can take tough minutes is a requirement
#1G - look at the cap space available and tell me we get a #1G with that without selling futures significantly with no guarantees we get anywhere and Matthews/Willy UFAs in 2 years
Asset cupboard is empty and we only have 1st round exits to show
Became a GM with a team
Inherited quality prospects (matthews, marner, nylander) and to certain extent Connor Brown, Kapanen, Mango, etc...
Plenty of cap space
Other assets
Look at all of that and ask yourself is it not sheer incompetence from this GM?
Look at the presser he gave at the exit interviews, he was talking like Leafs lost in a game 7 of conference finals or cup finals. IMO that is a loser attitude: easily satisfied, self congratulatory patting themselves at the back for failure.
Is it a coincidence that Dubas is in his last year of his contract and there is no news any contract extension? MLSE knows whats gong on.
Let me put this another way:
If someone told you that a team hired a GM; that had plenty of cap space, assets with a team on the rise having drafted 1st overall, 4th overall and 7th overall in the last 2 to 3 years.
That team is now cap strapped, does not have any assets, the high end picks are about 2 to 3 years away from UFA with NMC starting in about 1 year and this team this hasn't had any playoff success and finds it hard to get out of first round.
Would you give this GM a passing grade? Stop thinking about allegiances just base your opinion on facts. If you are giving this GM a passing grade then my apologies but I will have to question your allegiance. Is it to the team or to the GM?
Well with the state of the NHL and the flat cap as much as people hate the idea I think its best to keep up what Dubas has been doing and wait for the cap the rise again. I dont see any trade where we end up better afterwards trading one of the core pieces.
The only trade that I wish we could do is move out Tavares's 11M but his full NTC makes it impossible.
moving Nylander is an option but even if we move him for a Dman VERY good chance its Hall-Larsson 2.0 except it ends up being even worse for Leafs
The cap was suppose to rise alot the first year covid came in Bettman was saying the cap was going to rise 3m
if that continued where the cap went up 2-3m every season Matthews,Marner,Nylander and Tavares cap hits would not be a problem at all.
not sure how reliable this source is but I remember reading this just before covid started
I agree about Tavares. COVID hurt us because Dubas tried a rebuild style that nobody else has ever tried and it backfired.
Do you think Matthews will sign another contract here in 2 years especially if we havnt won a round by then?
I agree about Tavares. COVID hurt us because Dubas tried a rebuild style that nobody else has ever tried and it backfired.
Do you think Matthews will sign another contract here in 2 years especially if we havnt won a round by then?
I agree about Tavares. COVID hurt us because Dubas tried a rebuild style that nobody else has ever tried and it backfired.
Do you think Matthews will sign another contract here in 2 years especially if we havnt won a round by then?
I dunno I say it's a little closer on the re-sign side then him leaving side. If he's not re-signed around the half season mark next year I'll worry till then for all I know he loves the spotlight, he can basically ask for whatever he wants and he will get it. he can also get a contract like Tavares where he gets all but league min every July 1st,
I dunno it's tough to say if he ever brings a cup back to Toronto he will forever be a legend here.
I dont think he has shown any interest in wanting to leave although the consistent losing in the first round is prob getting pretty old
Dubas hasn't passed the tests. I don't even think he'd say he has.
He has built a really excellent regular season team but hasn't shown he can get them over the hump of even the lowest rung of playoff success.
The clay needed to build a winning hockey team is almost certainly here. And I'm willing to be a little more patient to see if Dubas can be the guy to finish out that project. But I also understand the frustration of those whose patience has run out.
Has he though? We were already an excellent regular season team when he took over. Seems we have been in a holding pattern since he became gm. The leafs against Caps and Bruins both battled and tried hard too, followed by 2 unforgetful playoffs against Columbus and Habs and now we are back to battling hard and that is building something excellent? I don't see what he has done that is so special that Lou or any other semi competent gm couldn't have done. No other team let alone cup winners has won with 3 11 milly players or 50% wrapped up in their top 4 forwards. Individually you can say our stars are worth their salaries (which they were not at the time imo) but put together as a whole it doesnt look as rosey. I like Dubas when he arrived on the scene and he seems like a nice guy but I have a harder and harder time listening or believing what he is selling. Time will tell but time is running out.
My take is that judging a GM by ONLY playoff success is ridiculous. Playoff success is a huge part of it, perhaps even the most important. But there’s more to it than that, and arguing that Dubas is the same level as Nonis is proof enough that it’s ridiculous in the first place. A 68 point regular season that prompted a rebuild is not the same as a franchise record for points and we all know it.
listen, I was in Vancouver when Nonis took over gm and was back in Toronto when he took over here...I told anyone who would listen he was not good. Nonis was in way over his head as a gm. Assistant gm who handles contracts sure, but the guy who makes the big decisions....yikes, he was as terrible as terrible can be.
I dunno I say it's a little closer on the re-sign side then him leaving side. If he's not re-signed around the half season mark next year I'll worry till then for all I know he loves the spotlight, he can basically ask for whatever he wants and he will get it. he can also get a contract like Tavares where he gets all but league min every July 1st,
I dunno it's tough to say if he ever brings a cup back to Toronto he will forever be a legend here.
I dont think he has shown any interest in wanting to leave although the consistent losing in the first round is prob getting pretty old
He was put in charge at a tough time where he had to sign his star rfa's. The person he replaced which we were told was a major mistake had the chance to sign Nylander the summer before but decided the priority was near retirement Marleau at 6.5. He also had to improve the D core which again neither Burke, now looking for a new job.... again in Nonis, and Lou never could. He was able to sign his rfa's at higher amounts than expected which should be on Lou because he's shown here and NY he lets agents run over him. He improved the D core and pretty much revamped the entire D core except for Rielly. Sandin he drafted along with Dubas's development system made Holl into an NHL player. Liljegren was drafted by Lou but his development was in Dubas's system so thats a Dubas piece really.
Covid ruined some plans but he has done a great job adding pieces under a flat cap.
He just needs playoff success but the lack there of isn't on him. He has improved the team in difficult circimstances from Covid to cleaning up mistakes from other GM's. He inherited a team with young stars who needed new deals and a flawed up and coming team and done great things with it.
The Foligno trade looks terrible, but it would look different if Tavares doesn't go down in game 1.
If I go to a restaurant and eat a $50 steak that is poorly cooked or lacking in any way, I leave thinking that $50 steaks are a horrible idea.
If I go back and eat the same steak but this time it's delicious and perfectly cooked then I'm happy I spent the money for what is something I don't enjoy every day.
It's not the steak itself that is the problem, nor is it the price. It's the entire experience that was bad.
Tavares going down made everything taste sour against the Habs.
Except that the leafs looked in total control after 4 games. I was convinced they couldnt lose to the habs and said so to family and friends. I would have bet the house on it if I had a house. Up 3-1 and dominating and your blaming tavares going down in the 1st game as the reason they lost? The 1st game sure that makes sense but not when they were up 3-1 and looking dominant.
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must be on the coach then?
