Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[BertCorbeau]

Of course they are. JFJ and Nonis both assembled teams that were absolutely dogshit in the regular season, I'll dare to say that they're remembered for that. It's fair enough that people want to get mad at Dubas for the team not advancing in the playoffs, but the whole "regular season success doesn't matter" spiel is reductive to the point of absurdity. What matters is whether or not a GM assembles a good hockey team. Playoff success is part of what determines whether or not a hockey team is good, but at some point the narratives have to matter less than how the Maple Leafs actually play.

People who cling to the playoff narrative as their only argument are genuinely more stubborn than the advanced stats folks.

I mean we heard lots of criticism about Dubas regressing the team when compared to Lou‘s record setting team in 17-18.. so it matters depending on how you spin in.

 

[weems]

I think Dubas's ability lies somewhere in the middle of what's argued.

He's not nearly as bad as some of his haters proclaim but he's not nearly as good as some of his boosters think.

He has built good regular season teams, I think he's drafted very well, Our team has become much better defensively the past few seasons and that was previously a obvious weakness.

I believe theres been too much of a negligence towards the physical element of the game. I dont even like the word grit and in this instance intensity, snarl, hard to play against would be more suitable for whats being talked about. I dont believe you can stick 1-2 players on your 4th line and expect that to be enough. It needs to be a team mindset and the players that are always on the ice (top 2 lines, top 4 D) need to show these elements consistently. The playoffs are tough, big boy hockey and its very difficult to win 4 rounds and being a versatile team that can play any style and thrive is very important and I'm not sure we're quite there currently.

I can get behind him returning because I think he's most likely quickly learning/evolving and we did have a very good season where we pushed the b2b champs to the brink. I also wouldnt be against a new voice/vision coming in and seeing what they could do with our talent level. At worst I think we should be exploring the option of upgrading the coaching position if theres some obvious upgrades available.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree with most of your post. I was also on this bandwagon. The assets the team missed out on from keeping JVR/Bozak/Komarov and acquiring Plekanec has always been painful.

For a GM of a contender, it's tough to balance the present and the future. With JVR it was easy for me as I thought it was clear we weren't winning the cup and if you're not doing that, it rarely makes sense to spend the futures. With Tavares though, it seemed like we were really close and since we didn't have to give up assets either to acquire a very good player, 99% of the people agreed it was a no brainer and all the belly aching about it now is just hypocritical.

Same goes for Muzzin. Not quite to the same degree but the vast majority of people liked that deal, he filled a big hole on our team and instantly made our D a lot better than it was. And it's easy to now say - we didn't win anything with him - but we certainly looked poised to win something at the time and his tenure with us isn't over yet. He played great for us in these playoffs and we'll still be one of the top contenders so we'll see what happens next season.

I personally did NOT like the Foligno trade, but then again, I rarely like TDL deals because the prices are usually quite high so I'd generally prefer to put my team together in the off-season. This TDL I thought Dubas was great though, so many were predicting he'd sell the future hoping to win at least one round to "keep his job" and if people were honest, they'd be eating crow today because he did what any GM with integrity would do - he put the team first. He didn't deal any top prospects or 1st rounders, Giordano was great and he resigned here for minimum wage, quite likely he wouldn't have done that had he not been with us these last few months but nobody seems to want to give Dubas credit here, it's all "Gio would have signed here no matter who the GM was" which is BS because some other GM might not have traded for him in the first place. Dubas did an excellent job at the TDL.

But I digress ... JMHO.

 

[LeafGrief]

I mean we heard lots of criticism about Dubas regressing the team when compared to Lou‘s record setting team in 17-18.. so it matters depending on how you spin in.

Playoff success is the only thing that matters! And you'll find that the Leafs suffer from lack of playoff success because of factors A, B, and C. Sheesh dummies, don't you know those things matter for hockey teams? Playoff success is the only thing that matters and if you don't do the things that matter for playoff success, you'll never win anything. That's why we need an experienced GM, experience matters.

 

[Gabriel426]

Of course they are. JFJ and Nonis both assembled teams that were absolutely dogshit in the regular season, I'll dare to say that they're remembered for that. It's fair enough that people want to get mad at Dubas for the team not advancing in the playoffs, but the whole "regular season success doesn't matter" spiel is reductive to the point of absurdity. What matters is whether or not a GM assembles a good hockey team. Playoff success is part of what determines whether or not a hockey team is good, but at some point the narratives have to matter less than how the Maple Leafs actually play.

People who cling to the playoff narrative as their only argument are genuinely more stubborn than the advanced stats folks.

That’s your take.
How is GM not judged by playoffs success?
Is anyone celebrating Dubas’s team winning the North Division last season and breaking Franchise records this season? I will bet that even Dubas himself think more about his last two first round losses than winning the division and breaking franchise record.
Just like teams are judge by playoffs success.

Nonis, Lou and Dubas are all at the same level as Leafs GM bc the team they assembled all could not win 4 games in a series. Quinn’s Leafs did it and that’s why he is ahead of those three.
Dubas can still change this narrative as long as he stays as Leafs GM and assembled a team that can win a round or two.

 

[Zur En Arrh]

Dubas is fine. He's done a good job. Sure his rfa contracts are rough but everywhere else is good. The kadri trade was fine. Kadri screwed us one last time by saying no to the brodie trade. Essentially it was kerfoot and brodie for kadri. Decent.

I have a few seasons left for dubas before I start to get worried this isint going to cut it. I'll tell you what, I feel a lot better with Dubas than the last four gms we have had. Dubas completely understands skill and speed win today. Imagine of Burke was still gm.. Or nonis..Dear lord.

The only way I will feel comfortable in a few years from now letting dubas go is it another young hockey mind (male or female) is available for us to put in the position. I am not interested in anyone who played in the seventies, was a gm since the seventies, or apart of the " ol boys " club. Nope!

 

[kevsh]

Kadri has ruined four playoffs series for his team. He is definition of F. Three suspensions and meltdown against Dallas. One hat trick doesn't change that.

Kadri at his contract or Tavares as the 2C?

With apologies to John's pajamas and bed sheets, It's not even close.

 

[BertCorbeau]

For a GM of a contender, it's tough to balance the present and the future. With JVR it was easy for me as I thought it was clear we weren't winning the cup and if you're not doing that, it rarely makes sense to spend the futures. With Tavares though, it seemed like we were really close and since we didn't have to give up assets either to acquire a very good player, 99% of the people agreed it was a no brainer and all the belly aching about it now is just hypocritical.

Same goes for Muzzin. Not quite to the same degree but the vast majority of people liked that deal, he filled a big hole on our team and instantly made our D a lot better than it was. And it's easy to now say - we didn't win anything with him - but we certainly looked poised to win something at the time and his tenure with us isn't over yet. He played great for us in these playoffs and we'll still be one of the top contenders so we'll see what happens next season.

I personally did NOT like the Foligno trade, but then again, I rarely like TDL deals because the prices are usually quite high so I'd generally prefer to put my team together in the off-season. This TDL I thought Dubas was great though, so many were predicting he'd sell the future hoping to win at least one round to "keep his job" and if people were honest, they'd be eating crow today because he did what any GM with integrity would do - he put the team first. He didn't deal any top prospects or 1st rounders, Giordano was great and he resigned here for minimum wage, quite likely he wouldn't have done that had he not been with us these last few months but nobody seems to want to give Dubas credit here, it's all "Gio would have signed here no matter who the GM was" which is BS because some other GM might not have traded for him in the first place. Dubas did an excellent jog at the TDL.

But I digress ... JMHO.

That’s a trending comment these days. It wasn’t long ago that fans were wondering why GTA born players were wanting to sign with Toronto. And remember Babcock’s line about bringing them home? .. so it’s convenient to say they would come here no matter what, but history shows that not to be true.

 

[Brown Dog]

Dubas hasn't passed the tests. I don't even think he'd say he has.

He has built a really excellent regular season team but hasn't shown he can get them over the hump of even the lowest rung of playoff success.

The clay needed to build a winning hockey team is almost certainly here. And I'm willing to be a little more patient to see if Dubas can be the guy to finish out that project. But I also understand the frustration of those whose patience has run out.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Pittsburgh didn’t have that problem with Mike Sullivan, Dan Bylsma, or Bob Johnson … Habs did pretty well when Scotty Bowman came in as a rookie too.

Rookies can be more than qualified for success.

Bowman wasn't a rookie coach.

 

[LeafGrief]

That’s your take.
How is GM not judged by playoffs success?
Is anyone celebrating Dubas’s team winning the North Division last season and breaking Franchise records this season? I will bet that even Dubas himself think more about his last two first round losses than winning the division and breaking franchise record.
Just like teams are judge by playoffs success.

Nonis, Lou and Dubas are all at the same level as Leafs GM bc the team they assembled all could not win 4 games in a series. Quinn’s Leafs did it and that’s why he is ahead of those three.
Dubas can still change this narrative as long as he stays as Leafs GM and assembled a team that can win a round or two.

My take is that judging a GM by ONLY playoff success is ridiculous. Playoff success is a huge part of it, perhaps even the most important. But there’s more to it than that, and arguing that Dubas is the same level as Nonis is proof enough that it’s ridiculous in the first place. A 68 point regular season that prompted a rebuild is not the same as a franchise record for points and we all know it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Did you not watch the blowout 7-1 loss to the Wilkes Scranton Penguins?
Did you not watch the 5-1 and 5-2 losses to bottom-feeder Buffalo?
Did you not watch the 2 losses to bottom-feeder Arizona?
Did you not watch the multiple humiliating losses to bottom-feeder Montreal this past season?
What about the 8-1 loss to Tampa near the end of the year?

This team continues to play only when they feel like, and takes the night off whenever they think they can scrape by with minimal effort.

I'm not sure what you a referring to, I didn't cherry pick or give any examples in my response. Are you talking about cherry picking the 7 game sample size that is also known as the playoffs? is there an argument that the playoffs don't show what a team is capable of and better to use the 82 game regular season to determine how good a team is?

Sorry for the confusion, another poster started this with a ridiculous post with cherry picked regular season games, I responded to him, then you responded to my post and I got you confused with him.

For reference, I put the original post that started all this above. That was posted about 4 hours ago which is probably why I got confused, my apologies.

As far as our question goes, it's a very good question. I think both the regular season and the playoffs need to be considered and playoff games should be given extra weight though obviously there is no exact formula. I've had numerous discussions this season on this very subject with a poster who kept insisting that the regular season is a better measure and you could argue it both ways. Look at MTL, they went to the finals last season but they obviously just got hot for a bit so just looking at the playoffs would have been tragically wrong. But then look at us, we keep playing great during the regular season and losing in the playoffs so I can understand people saying that were not built for the playoffs. Playoff hockey is different, at least would say it is. Then again in these playoffs, they called penalties more like they do during the season so maybe that varies from year to year? And I though we played very well against TB though many seem to view it through the binary lens and view as just another playoff series loss, indistinguishable from the other years. But I digress again ...

 

[deprw]

Kadri at his contract or Tavares as the 2C?

With apologies to John's pajamas and bed sheets, It's not even close.

Usually in the playoffs it was Kadri's empty stall vs. Tavares on the ice. We have been whining about regular season and no series wins. Kadri has gone to second round with Avalanche. Let see how he performs this year. I have high hopes for Colorado, but they're also unproven and Kadri will have new contract after this year. So he basicly gave one good playoff spring for Colorado...

 

[Gary Nylund]

My take is that judging a GM by ONLY playoff success is ridiculous. Playoff success is a huge part of it, perhaps even the most important. But there’s more to it than that, and arguing that Dubas is the same level as Nonis is proof enough that it’s ridiculous in the first place. A 68 point regular season that prompted a rebuild is not the same as a franchise record for points and most of us know it.

FYP.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Kadri should take a reasonable deal at 6 but with long term in Colorado if he wants to win.

But will he? He’s played very well, but he’s 32 game one next year and absolutely not getting 90 points or whatever it was if he goes to Seattle, Detroit, Columbus or LA. I think he does what’s best for his family and gets paid elsewhere, good for him.

The work never stops for Dubas, sucks to lose the first round while being 4th overall for a 25-27th pick, but at least there’s that. I’d rather be the Leafs than Florida right now.

Some guys need to go, guys who need to go and guys who we don’t want to lose.

Giving Jack max years to keep money low is the move, guys get paid for less. I’d be happier at 4.5/7 than 6/5.

We can blame the big guys but more and more I realize that they probably expected the cap to be 92 or whatever and there would have been money but Covid, and they aren’t on the inside and so weren’t informed beforehand - take ideally the same but realistically only modest bumps (13 and 11) the next time around and it’ll be cool.

Oh except Willy who will want to get paid. What’s your max on him? 8.5.

…

… … …

The JT deal is sort of looking like a misstep, but I can see how it looked right at the time.

And I’d love to get Trotz in here, yeah I said it.

 

[Mad hatter]

Usually in the playoffs it was Kadri's empty stall vs. Tavares on the ice. We have been whining about regular season and no series wins. Kadri has gone to second round with Avalanche. Let see how he performs this year. I have high hopes for Colorado, but they're also unproven and Kadri will have new contract after this year. So he basicly gave one good playoff spring for Colorado...

Imho Babcock would still be the coach if Kadri hadn’t been suspended two years straight in the playoffs. He’s a great player and would’ve won both series with him playing I believe.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

And the sage wisdom from his predecessor that “if you have time, use it” who allowed Willy’s elc to expire and instead of nailing down an extension decides to extend Zaitsev for 7 seasons (he’s a buy out candidate in Ottawa now) and old geezer marleau who came in to town and really showed the kids that it’s about the money.
Kyle made mistakes, but a lot were situations he was set up to fail in by his “mentor”

Not that I agree with anything in your post but how long do you plan to scapegoat Lou? You know he’s been gone for what 4 years now?

 

[pcruz]

For a GM of a contender, it's tough to balance the present and the future. With JVR it was easy for me as I thought it was clear we weren't winning the cup and if you're not doing that, it rarely makes sense to spend the futures. With Tavares though, it seemed like we were really close and since we didn't have to give up assets either to acquire a very good player, 99% of the people agreed it was a no brainer and all the belly aching about it now is just hypocritical.

Same goes for Muzzin. Not quite to the same degree but the vast majority of people liked that deal, he filled a big hole on our team and instantly made our D a lot better than it was. And it's easy to now say - we didn't win anything with him - but we certainly looked poised to win something at the time and his tenure with us isn't over yet. He played great for us in these playoffs and we'll still be one of the top contenders so we'll see what happens next season.

I personally did NOT like the Foligno trade, but then again, I rarely like TDL deals because the prices are usually quite high so I'd generally prefer to put my team together in the off-season. This TDL I thought Dubas was great though, so many were predicting he'd sell the future hoping to win at least one round to "keep his job" and if people were honest, they'd be eating crow today because he did what any GM with integrity would do - he put the team first. He didn't deal any top prospects or 1st rounders, Giordano was great and he resigned here for minimum wage, quite likely he wouldn't have done that had he not been with us these last few months but nobody seems to want to give Dubas credit here, it's all "Gio would have signed here no matter who the GM was" which is BS because some other GM might not have traded for him in the first place. Dubas did an excellent job at the TDL.

But I digress ... JMHO.

The Foligno trade looks terrible, but it would look different if Tavares doesn't go down in game 1.

If I go to a restaurant and eat a $50 steak that is poorly cooked or lacking in any way, I leave thinking that $50 steaks are a horrible idea.
If I go back and eat the same steak but this time it's delicious and perfectly cooked then I'm happy I spent the money for what is something I don't enjoy every day.

It's not the steak itself that is the problem, nor is it the price. It's the entire experience that was bad.

Tavares going down made everything taste sour against the Habs.

 

[Morgs]

Of all problems this team has, the GM ranks very low on the list.

Tbh there aren't many problems this team has besides winning when it counts.

 

[leafsfan5]

Of all problems this team has, the GM ranks very low on the list.

Tbh there aren't many problems this team has besides winning when it counts.

I'd say that's a pretty big problem

 

[Morgs]

I'd say that's a pretty big problem

Nobody said it wasn't.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The Foligno trade looks terrible, but it would look different if Tavares doesn't go down in game 1.

If I go to a restaurant and eat a $50 steak that is poorly cooked or lacking in any way, I leave thinking that $50 steaks are a horrible idea.
If I go back and eat the same steak but this time it's delicious and perfectly cooked then I'm happy I spent the money for what is something I don't enjoy every day.

It's not the steak itself that is the problem, nor is it the price. It's the entire experience that was bad.

Tavares going down made everything taste sour against the Habs.

Yeah probably. For me though, it wouldn't change the way I view the trade but that's me. Hindsight is great but whenever you make a trade, you can only make the best decision with the information you have at the time so I judge trades the same way. When the deal is made, I decide at that time if I like it or not and I don't change my assessment of the GM's decision years later.

1st round pick to dump Marleau, I thought that was a bit high but it cost what it cost I guess so I was fine with it.

1st round pick went in the Muzzin trade, great trade IMO. Almost everyone agreed at the time, now many of those same people are calling Dubas an idiot for making a trade they liked at the time.

1st round pick for Foligno. I didn't like it. I could understand it so it wasn't brutally awful or anything but still, I didn't like it.

Trading Kadri - I was fine with it. Kadri was my favourite player for years but if he's not eligible to play in the playoffs, what good is he? Then he went and got suspended again in Colorado, how anyone could say that was a dumb trade is beyond me. It had to be done, that's all there is to it and I assume Dubas got the best return he could get for who was at the time our 3rd line centre.

Signing Tavares - 99.9% of this board was celebrating when this happened and now, that signing has apparently set us back a decade. Shell out, shell out, the hypocrites are out!

 

[Jmo89]

Pittsburgh didn’t have that problem with Mike Sullivan, Dan Bylsma, or Bob Johnson … Habs did pretty well when Scotty Bowman came in as a rookie too.

Rookies can be more than qualified for success.

I never said they couldn't. I said (or was trying to say) having a rookie coach after already having rookie GM and president has proven to be a problem. It was way too much risk to have all 3 of them rookies with the core as young as it was.

Keefe has been outcoached every playoffs and won the award for biggest loser in round 1 with his comments. It might not be because he's a rookie, maybe he just sucks.

 

[Crosscrease14]

Title gave me a good chuckle

 

[Arthur Morgan]

If the players won’t or can’t get it done then he needs to start changing them

sounds like just straight up speculation. sounds easier said than done as well. I mean im sure he could easily move guys like Nylander but I dont see how we are better afterwards,

Who brought in the players?

If the players are good enough and the GM has ‘passed the test” must be on the coach then?

well our core was basically all here before he became GM so I dunno Lou and Dubas