Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Skullz]

Dubas has too much loyalty to be honest. I get we were a 115 point team, but just shuffling deck chairs is infuriating. We have very little coming, and no cap space. Just keep running it back and hope the big boys come through is the plan I guess, but this is years of futility by now with no change.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Not possible since he has a full NMC kick in next July 1, which is precisely when the Leafs can begin talking to his representation about a new contract. They'll have no ability to trade him if he won't re-sign.

That was done quite purposefully on the part of Matthews' camp so he can absolutely put the screws to Toronto and dictate precisely what he re-signs for (max), or allow himself to walk to UFA without being traded.

Matthews, to date, has taken every avenue towards maximizing his hockey-related earnings whether that was shunning junior hockey to go instantly earn a salary in Switzerland, maxing out his rookie bonuses, bending over Kyle Dubas for an outrageous 5-year deal with the aforementioned NMC in the final year...

Is anyone that naïve to think he isn't going to test the UFA market the first available chance he gets?

They absolutely can trade him in that final year... to somewhere he dictates. Personally, if I'm Dubas, I'm not waiting till then. He agrees to an extension (handshake only, obviously) or he's traded this upcoming season.

I've always maintained since day 1 he doesn't want to be here, in Canada.

 

[TorMapleJays]

I was at that game (vs Arizona)

Imagine if Dubas moved up 13 places the exact same from the second to the first and his detractors argued it didn’t really matter, like turn it around. Imagine the accolades from his pumpers? Every position counts, we would have never gotten that guy there, what genius to get a first rounder, etc, etc.

Sounds like JT (Not Jonny)

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

If we go with muzzin as our central physical guy on the backend, this needs to be Dubas last year guaranteed. What's his fascination with running physicality through broken old guys. Our only guy who clears the net and pins bodies can't last a full season + playoffs.

The only D we have that can still play actual good D is 39 years old. That's just sad.

Brodie stretch of bad is too long that he needs to prove he's still good now.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Imagine if Dubas moved up 13 places the exact same from the second to the first and his detractors argued it didn’t really matter, like turn it around. Imagine the accolades from his pumpers? Every position counts, we would have never gotten that guy there, what genius to get a first rounder, etc, etc.

This my main issue with trade, not the sweetener. We traded down just to fill the space back up stupidly. People keep say goalies are a crap shoot, so they should agree there was no reason for us to give in and take the deal. Let another team swoop in and get him early if they wish and roll with the punches from there, at least we still have the cap space we paid for.

 

[Gary Nylund]

My guy, just give it up. You have me confused with someone else or you are just creating some kind of straw man out of thin air with this betting odds foolishness. Im not arguing about what the betting line should be, i havent in this thread, and I couldn't care less!

LOL straw man. Here's a quick recap:

You made a post which made it sounded like the team is a complete disaster, here are some highlights:

"The bargain bin shopping is an embarrassment. The Soo nepotism has gotten to a point where it seems Dubas is more interested in personal relationships than whats best for the organization."

"this is just some of the worst asset management i've ever witnessed, the number of high end players that have walked for nothing the past couple years is criminal."

"What sad times as a Leafs fan, another lost generation of fans. Dubas has dismembered one of the best opportunities the NHL has seen in a very long time."

Your post is basically a steaming pile of hot garbage, I'll just repeat my favourite part:

Dubas has dismembered one of the best opportunities the NHL has seen in a very long time."

Then when I pointed out that the Leafs are as of today, widely considered to be one of the best teams in the league and offered up current odds to win the cup next year as evidence, you responded with this gem:

HAHAHA the bookmakers hey?

And then told me to "keep drinking the koolaid".

I will say it again, we have one of the best teams in the league, and if you truly believe this "lost generation" stuff along with the rest of the crap you've spewing then you don't have a clue. And laughing at what the bookmakers have to say (which is backed by trucks full of money) then once again, you don't have a clue. And if you've got nothing better than to accuse me of confusing you with someone else, I suggest you just give it up.

And I'll ask again, if you don't agree that the top cup favourites are COL, with the next tier of contenders being us along with TB, CAR and FLA then do tell us, who do you think are the top contenders? Funny how you whiners don't want answer this one simple question. Did every betting site out there get it wrong? Are the top 5 teams they have are all wrong? Or is it just the Leafs that they're overestimating according to you? Who do you think the top 5 contenders are, EDM, CAL, DET, STL and LV perhaps?

If we go with muzzin as our central physical guy on the backend, this needs to be Dubas last year guaranteed. What's his fascination with running physicality through broken old guys. Our only guy who clears the net and pins bodies can't last a full season + playoffs.

The only D we have that can still play actual good D is 39 years old. That's just sad.

Brodie stretch of bad is too long that he needs to prove he's still good now.

Muzzin actually played quite well in the playoffs. No reason to count him out at this point, with a bit of load management it's quite possible he could do the same next spring.

 

[centipede2233]

What’s done is done. Dubas has made too many mistakes big and small. He screwed up the cap and the makeup of this team while bleeding assets. If I were the GM and took over the team today, I’d get a pulse on matthews resigning. If I get the inclination that he isn’t signing, I actively shop him ASAP and go with the highest bidder. because the only way the leafs can win the cup, isn’t with matthews (because of his high AAV and his even next contract AAV, is wait and hope mcdavid comes home in 4 yrs. Sure 4 rs is always away and not a surety. But somet8mes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward.

 

[LeafsandSharksfan]

We're often compared (by management) to Washington, a highly skilled team that had to go through several playoff defeats before ultimately winning the Cup.

Washington added Lars Eller (a physical, very good 3rd line centre with some scoring potential) for a couple second round picks, filling an important need. Who will be Dubas's Lars Eller? No candidate as of yet.

They had young very good players coming up through the system (Vrana, Wilson, Burakovsky) due to keeping all their first round picks despite going for it every year. Who will be Dubas's Vrana, Wilson and Burakovsky? No candidates as of yet.

They had executed a great trade for TJ Oshie, adding secondary scoring and size. Who will be Dubas's TJ Oshie? No candidate as of yet.

I won't even go into the other team we're compared to (Tampa Bay) because the genius of that management regime makes Dubas look like a preschooler.

These are the actual challenges that Dubas must accomplish: making similar excellent moves that push our roster to the level of champions. I don't understand why the expectations are so low: he only moved back 13 spots... he only did what he could considering our cap situation... he couldn't control us facing a very good team in the first round...

There's running it back when you're in a situation similar to Washington with very good talent coming up through the system. There's running it back when you're us and there are no obvious difference makers coming up through the system. The cost of our management team going for it every year and failing miserably.

This is a perspective I don't hear nearly often enough, the Capitals identified TWO players they were going to keep, Ovechkin and Backstrom, and virtually EVERYTHING else was changed, some multiple times - GM, Coach, Forward Group, Defense, Goaltending. They left behind good players like Mike Green and Alex Semin because the mix wasn't working, and they continued to develop new talent. They kept tweaking the formula until they got it right. Outside of goaltending and UFAs leaving the Leafs haven't made a significant on-ice change since what, Brodie?

Leafs have been operating like they're Chicago and LA post-cup by desperately trying to weather the salary crunch and keep this same group together, and I suspect they're going to end up in the same position. The odds of resigning all of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander are pretty narrow IMO, plus you might need to rebuild your whole defence since Brodie and Muzzin are up that in 2024.

A proactive GM could make the moves now to avoid these issues but I see zero evidence of an interest in that. Tampa moved away from McDonough, a pretty key piece to their success, because it didn't work for the cap and they are looking towards the future as well as the present. Good teams are doing this. A team with this much invested in the brain-trust should not be getting outperformed by their competitors in Cap and Asset management yet that is happening every single year.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

What’s done is done. Dubas has made too many mistakes big and small. He screwed up the cap and the makeup of this team while bleeding assets. If I were the GM and took over the team today, I’d get a pulse on matthews resigning. If I get the inclination that he isn’t signing, I actively shop him ASAP and go with the highest bidder. because the only way the leafs can win the cup, isn’t with matthews (because of his high AAV and his even next contract AAV, is wait and hope mcdavid comes home in 4 yrs. Sure 4 rs is always away and not a surety. But somet8mes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward.

You really want Dubas of all people to handle a Matthews trade?

And don’t worry he’s already lubing up for his next round of contract negotiations assuming he doesn’t get fired before. I’m sure Matthews will be happy to sign a blank check with his name on it.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

This is a perspective I don't hear nearly often enough, the Capitals identified TWO players they were going to keep, Ovechkin and Backstrom, and virtually EVERYTHING else was changed, some multiple times - GM, Coach, Forward Group, Defense, Goaltending. They left behind good players like Mike Green and Alex Semin because the mix wasn't working, and they continued to develop new talent. They kept tweaking the formula until they got it right. Outside of goaltending and UFAs leaving the Leafs haven't made a significant on-ice change since what, Brodie?

Leafs have been operating like they're Chicago and LA post-cup by desperately trying to weather the salary crunch and keep this same group together, and I suspect they're going to end up in the same position. The odds of resigning all of Matthews, Marner, and Nylander are pretty narrow IMO, plus you might need to rebuild your whole defence since Brodie and Muzzin are up that in 2024.

A proactive GM could make the moves now to avoid these issues but I see zero evidence of an interest in that. Tampa moved away from McDonough, a pretty key piece to their success, because it didn't work for the cap and they are looking towards the future as well as the present. Good teams are doing this. A team with this much invested in the brain-trust should not be getting outperformed by their competitors in Cap and Asset management yet that is happening every single year.

This^.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dubas has too much loyalty to be honest. I get we were a 115 point team, but just shuffling deck chairs is infuriating. We have very little coming, and no cap space. Just keep running it back and hope the big boys come through is the plan I guess, but this is years of futility by now with no change.

I worry about this too. Not sure it's true but ... I worry. If I was put in in charge today, the first thing I'd do is interview Dubas and one of the first questions I'd ask is about his promise to never trade Nylander as long as he's the GM. I'd ask him why he promised him that and if he planned on keeping that promise and if the answer was yes, I'd fire him on the spot. Loyalty is a good thing in general and I do think that the fact that Dubas treats players very well is mostly good for the organization in the long run but you take a good concept too far. Again, not sure that this is the case but ... I worry.

You really want Dubas of all people to handle a Matthews trade?

And don’t worry he’s already lubing up for his next round of contract negotiations assuming he doesn’t get fired before. I’m sure Matthews will be happy to sign a blank check with his name on it.

I think Dubas has made good trades for the most part, I'd have no problem having him handle a Matthews trade.

Matthews would pretty much get a blank check no matter who the GM was. Marner on the other hand, sigh. I can only hope that if Dubas is still in charge when it's Marnes turn at the trough again, things go a bit differently than they did last time. To be fair though, this narrative that Dubas overpays everyone is complete BS. He overpaid Marner and I'm still pissed about how obvious a mistake that was at the time but other than that, I have problem with our contracts. At least as far as the dollars go that is, I can't say I'm happy about the way he dishes out no trade clauses out as if they were candy.

 

[ToneDog]

not so great trades.

Kadri
Marchment
Foligno
Murray
Marleau

Best trade - McCann

 

[Trapper]

I worry about this too. Not sure it's true but ... I worry. If I was put in in charge today, the first thing I'd do is interview Dubas and one of the first questions I'd ask is about his promise to never trade Nylander as long as he's the GM. I'd ask him why he promised him that and if he planned on keeping that promise and if the answer was yes, I'd fire him on the spot. Loyalty is a good thing in general and I do think that the fact that Dubas treats players very well is mostly good for the organization in the long run but you take a good concept too far. Again, not sure that this is the case but ... I worry.


I think Dubas has made good trades for the most part, I'd have no problem having him handle a Matthews trade.

Matthews would pretty much get a blank check no matter who the GM was. Marner on the other hand, sigh. I can only hope that if Dubas is still in charge when it's Marnes turn at the trough again, things go a bit differently than they did last time. To be fair though, this narrative that Dubas overpays everyone is complete BS. He overpaid Marner and I'm still pissed about how obvious a mistake that was at the time but other than that, I have problem with our contracts. At least as far as the dollars go that is, I can't say I'm happy about the way he dishes out no trade clauses out as if they were candy.

What do you think Dubas is going to be signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander for next UFA contract?
Do you think these players will be giving a discount and do you have a walk away number?

 

[Gabriel426]

not so great trades.

Kadri
Marchment
Foligno
Murray
Marleau

Best trade - McCann

Marchment should not be there, bc he was really out of place when he was called up. Somewhere after the trade, either Panthers knew how to develop him or he just realized what he needed to do or both, he became a player.
I would out AJ being on the list as well as Marleau.

 

[centipede2233]

You really want Dubas of all people to handle a Matthews trade?

And don’t worry he’s already lubing up for his next round of contract negotiations assuming he doesn’t get fired before. I’m sure Matthews will be happy to sign a blank check with his name on it.

No, I never said I’d want dubas to handle a matthews trade, I said I would handle a matthews trade, and yes, a random hfboards member would do better then dubes

 

[ToneDog]

What do you think Dubas is going to be signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander for next UFA contract?
Do you think these players will be giving a discount and do you have a walk away number?

Matthews will get whatever he asks for. Marner and Nylander can GTFO.

 

[Trapper]

Matthews will get whatever he asks for. Marner and Nylander can GTFO.

You know who will have to go first though.
Without success, Dubas shouldn’t be involved when we get there.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What do you think Dubas is going to be signing Matthews/Marner/Nylander for next UFA contract?
Do you think these players will be giving a discount and do you have a walk away number?

I wouldn't hazard a guess as to the numbers, a lot probably depends on cap projections at the time.

As far as discount goes, it's hard to say. Here are my guesses, but that's all they are - guesses.

Nylander
I feel most confident in this prediction. I believe that he will want top dollar and it wouldn't surprise me to see him go to free agency. I'd try to get a feel now for where he's at and if I am right and he is looking to get every dollar he can, I would start soliciting offers for him immediately.

Marner
I feel like he might be more reasonable this time around. He might remember how pissed fans were after signing the last deal and feel like he maybe owes us something. Maybe not quite a discount, but no more than fair market value, perhaps even on the low end of whatever the range for fair market value is perceived to be.

Matthews
No idea what he's all about. My hope is that he and Marner will talk amongst themselves and decide to give this town a bit of a break, and they will both sign reasonable deals hoping that that will help them win a cup here and thus becoming immortal. Unless we win the cup first, then all bets are off.

 

[Craigo85]

Dubas needs to start trading guys he can't afford before UFA. Trade them with 1 year left to somebody that can afford an extension for younger, cheaper assets or people with multiple years left

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Currently the Leafs are given the second best chance of winning the cup after Colorado at 8-1. TB and FLA are 10-1, then CAR at 11-1, LV at 14-1, EDM at 16-1 and CAL at 18-1.

Those odds seem pretty reasonable to me. You can cry all you want to but the reality is that we have one of the best teams in the league.

I love toxic positivity. It never seems toxic when someone is crying about the people who cry about the team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I love toxic positivity. It never seems toxic when someone is crying about the people who cry about the team.

What a strange post. Why are you so bothered by the fact that we have one of the best teams in the league?

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

LOL straw man. Here's a quick recap:

You made a post which made it sounded like the team is a complete disaster, here are some highlights:

"The bargain bin shopping is an embarrassment. The Soo nepotism has gotten to a point where it seems Dubas is more interested in personal relationships than whats best for the organization."

"this is just some of the worst asset management i've ever witnessed, the number of high end players that have walked for nothing the past couple years is criminal."

"What sad times as a Leafs fan, another lost generation of fans. Dubas has dismembered one of the best opportunities the NHL has seen in a very long time."

Your post is basically a steaming pile of hot garbage, I'll just repeat my favourite part:

Dubas has dismembered one of the best opportunities the NHL has seen in a very long time."

Then when I pointed out that the Leafs are as of today, widely considered to be one of the best teams in the league and offered up current odds to win the cup next year as evidence, you responded with this gem:

HAHAHA the bookmakers hey?

And then told me to "keep drinking the koolaid".

I will say it again, we have one of the best teams in the league, and if you truly believe this "lost generation" stuff along with the rest of the crap you've spewing then you don't have a clue. And laughing at what the bookmakers have to say (which is backed by trucks full of money) then once again, you don't have a clue. And if you've got nothing better than to accuse me of confusing you with someone else, I suggest you just give it up.

And I'll ask again, if you don't agree that the top cup favourites are COL, with the next tier of contenders being us along with TB, CAR and FLA then do tell us, who do you think are the top contenders? Funny how you whiners don't want answer this one simple question. Did every betting site out there get it wrong? Are the top 5 teams they have are all wrong? Or is it just the Leafs that they're overestimating according to you? Who do you think the top 5 contenders are, EDM, CAL, DET, STL and LV perhaps?

Wow man are you ok? Once again, if you want to argue about the legitimacy of vegas odd makers you are more than welcome to start a thread specifically for that topic but this thread is about Dubas and his utter failure as a GM. Also trying to pull a precise percentage about the odds of the leafs winning the cup out of my ass is what we call a losers race, so have fun running with that.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Not possible since he has a full NMC kick in next July 1, which is precisely when the Leafs can begin talking to his representation about a new contract. They'll have no ability to trade him if he won't re-sign.

That was done quite purposefully on the part of Matthews' camp so he can absolutely put the screws to Toronto and dictate precisely what he re-signs for (max), or allow himself to walk to UFA without being traded.

Matthews, to date, has taken every avenue towards maximizing his hockey-related earnings whether that was shunning junior hockey to go instantly earn a salary in Switzerland, maxing out his rookie bonuses, bending over Kyle Dubas for an outrageous 5-year deal with the aforementioned NMC in the final year...

Is anyone that naïve to think he isn't going to test the UFA market the first available chance he gets?

My money is that Matthews will be a LA King in two years.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

What a strange post. Why are you so bothered by the fact that we have one of the best teams in the league?

You already answered your question I guess. So why are you so bothered that someone criticizes the team? The crystal ball, Steve dangle, Mike from Buffalo, and the Vegas odds makers back your arguments. Don't get so bent out of shape about a difference of opinion.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Not possible since he has a full NMC kick in next July 1, which is precisely when the Leafs can begin talking to his representation about a new contract. They'll have no ability to trade him if he won't re-sign.

That was done quite purposefully on the part of Matthews' camp so he can absolutely put the screws to Toronto and dictate precisely what he re-signs for (max), or allow himself to walk to UFA without being traded.

Matthews, to date, has taken every avenue towards maximizing his hockey-related earnings whether that was shunning junior hockey to go instantly earn a salary in Switzerland, maxing out his rookie bonuses, bending over Kyle Dubas for an outrageous 5-year deal with the aforementioned NMC in the final year...

Is anyone that naïve to think he isn't going to test the UFA market the first available chance he gets?

They can definitely talk to Matthews before July 1. Tampa's extensions announced on Wednesday kick in for 23-24, but they obviously started negotiating much earlier. No team can pull that off in a few hours.

The Leafs have to get a framework for a deal in place sometime in June, and seriously consider trading him if they can't. I would trade him in that case.