Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[ToneDog]

I wonder how long it will be before Dorion stops laughing about that? I set the over/under at Christmas and take the over.

He might split his sides laughing if Murray gets injured or Leafs stumble out of the gate. I take the over as well.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

And they (the bookmakers) always win in the end. Always.

Looks like we found out who the sucker is.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He adds value, but he doesn’t have it in him to be a complete 7 AAV guy.

He provides more than 7m worth of value.

Explain how it’s acceptable, down a goal with under 4 mins left in game 7, to forecheck like it was a preseason game. He literally slammed on the brakes and let the D take the puck.

I don't know what instance you're even talking about, and quite frankly, I don't really care. Just because you personally dislike or don't understand a decision that he made on the ice one time, it doesn't justify dismissing the value he brings. From the way you describe it, it sounds like a player peeling off the forecheck to get the change out so everybody is rested for the final goalie-out push the shift after.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

If they didn't do a good job with the betting lines, they wouldn't print money the way they do. You do realize that sportsbooks make a ton of money right?

This is what we call a non sequitur. Arguing something that was not relevant to the original point. Typical around here.

 

[thewave]

Good luck guys I am going to exit stage left until the season. I don't feel like getting baited into something that will lead to a suspension of my account or anything. See you at the start of the season, hopefully we have a good run.

 

[Gary Nylund]

And they (the bookmakers) always win in the end. Always.

And that's why the lines they post make sense and you dismiss then at your own peril which was exactly my point.

This is what we call a non sequitur. Arguing something that was not relevant to the original point. Typical around here.

This is what we call a bunch of BS.

I'm just stating the simple fact that sportsbooks make a lot of money. If you don't think that's relevant to whether or not their betting lines are worth paying attention to, you're free to stick to that "interesting" point of view.

You guys are hilarious. You mock the lines posted by the bookies, but when challenged to say what you think the odds should be if you they're so laughably wrong ... crickets.

Since you refuse to say what the odds really should be, I can only assume that you have nothing whatsoever to back up your nonsense. Typical around here.

Good luck guys I am going to exit stage left until the season. I don't feel like getting baited into something that will lead to a suspension of my account or anything. See you at the start of the season, hopefully we have a good run.

Wise man. Then again, if you're going to take a break until the season starts, why fear a suspension?

 

[Trapper]

Good luck guys I am going to exit stage left until the season. I don't feel like getting baited into something that will lead to a suspension of my account or anything. See you at the start of the season, hopefully we have a good run.

Enjoy the summer wave!

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

This is what we call a bunch of BS.

I'm just stating the simple fact that sportsbooks make a lot of money. If you don't think that's relevant to whether or not their betting lines are worth paying attention to, you're free to stick to that "interesting" point of view.

Bro this is a thread and discussion that is essentially about Dubas and his performance as a GM. Now you and your buddy colchar or whatever his name is have derailed the convo with arguments of betting odds and book makers, like this is some kind of iron clad proof as to why Dubas is a good gm. People have pointed out the growing list of errors Dubas has accumulated and your argument is that Vegas odds makers have the leafs 3rd best odds to win the cup. Like if thats your argument as to why you think Dubas is so amazing then go ahead and run with it. But it also my opinion that if these are the pro Dubas arguments we are seeing its grasping at straws and a pretty pathetic attempt to stick up for a disaster of a management group.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bro this is a thread and discussion that is essentially about Dubas and his performance as a GM. Now you and your buddy colchar or whatever his name is have derailed the convo with arguments of betting odds and book makers, like this is some kind of iron clad proof as to why Dubas is a good gm. People have pointed out the growing list of errors Dubas has accumulated and your argument is that Vegas odds makers have the leafs 3rd best odds to win the cup. Like if thats your argument as to why you think Dubas is so amazing then go ahead and run with it. But it also my opinion that if these are the pro Dubas arguments we are seeing its grasping at straws and a pretty pathetic attempt to stick up for a disaster of a management group.

I haven't said it's iron clad proof of anything, but the lines made bookies are backed with a ton of real money and carry more weight in my eyes than posts made by 99% of the people here.

I'll say it again, if you think those odds are wrong, what do you think they should be. But you have no answer.

 

[rocketman588]

Kyper bothered by Dubas quote telling players to come here for less and earn more money down the road.

Inflate your value here and leave.

Podcasts

Podcasts

podcast.sportsnet.ca

collecting dudes who are just here to be mercenaries boost their stats and leave isn't exactly how I'd go about team building but we'll see.

Imo it's also not great optic wise. Basically screams we don't have cap space so please take a discount

 

[ToneDog]

collecting dudes who are just here to be mercenaries boost their stats and leave isn't exactly how I'd go about team building but we'll see.

Imo it's also not great optic wise. Basically screams we don't have cap space so please take a discount

Screams desperation and he should be embarrassed given this is supposed to be the mecca of hockey.

Perhaps he should just learn to keep his mouth shut ??

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Bro this is a thread and discussion that is essentially about Dubas and his performance as a GM. Now you and your buddy colchar or whatever his name is have derailed the convo with arguments of betting odds and book makers, like this is some kind of iron clad proof as to why Dubas is a good gm. People have pointed out the growing list of errors Dubas has accumulated and your argument is that Vegas odds makers have the leafs 3rd best odds to win the cup. Like if thats your argument as to why you think Dubas is so amazing then go ahead and run with it. But it also my opinion that if these are the pro Dubas arguments we are seeing its grasping at straws and a pretty pathetic attempt to stick up for a disaster of a management group.

THIS^.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

I haven't said it's iron clad proof of anything, but the lines made bookies are backed with a ton of real money and carry more weight in my eyes than posts made by 99% of the people here.

I'll say it again, if you think those odds are wrong, what do you think they should be. But you have no answer.

My guy, just give it up. You have me confused with someone else or you are just creating some kind of straw man out of thin air with this betting odds foolishness. Im not arguing about what the betting line should be, i havent in this thread, and I couldn't care less!

 

[rocketman588]

Screams desperation and he should be embarrassed given this is supposed to be the mecca of hockey.

Perhaps he should just learn to keep his mouth shut ??

Possibly he over promises a lot I think other then that it's just GM speak

When you say you're going to get a mean RHD and it looks pretty difficult with the cap that's an issue if you don't deliver same with the leaks that came out about the pick being the same guy we would have had at 25 and it was pretty obvious that we we're not making the same pick that we did

It just makes it look like you got played

 

[Stephen]

The constant roster churn is a liability at this point. The bargain bin shopping is an embarrassment. The Soo nepotism has gotten to a point where it seems Dubas is more interested in personal relationships than whats best for the organization. Him scoffing at a question about Barry Trottz being available and the fireable offence of acquiring Matt Murray at 4.7 are two prime examples. This regime has normalized the concept of an "own rental" when in reality this is just some of the worst asset management i've ever witnessed, the number of high end players that have walked for nothing the past couple years is criminal. The Tavares contract is an unmitigated disaster at this point. This team is staring down the possibility of losing Matthews 3 years earlier than necessary. Remember the good old days when we had Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kapanen, Brown, Johnson, Moore on entry level deals and Kadri, Rielly, Hyman & Andersen on sweet heart deals? I do and what a lost opportunity. What sad times as a Leafs fan, another lost generation of fans. Dubas has dismembered one of the best opportunities the NHL has seen in a very long time.

The roster churn is definitely a sign that the organization isn’t in good health overall. The cap pressures have resulted in a revolving door on mercenaries coming in to bet on themselves and a successful season is basically rewarded with a ticket to Edmonton.

Secondly the in house developmental system is drying up and the Leafs were so focused on finding the next small skilled forward that now you have a small army of 5’10” ish forwards kind of not pushing up, but relied on to fill bottom 6 roles which they aren’t physically built to do.

Thirdly we are churning future assets just re-solving the same problems every deadline on all in moves - when not using draft capital to fix cap mistakes.

I think this team needs to get Matthews and Nylander and Marner re-signed, take a step back and reload on a down year and then hit it hard again once JT is off the books and the cap goes up. That’s the most plausible medium term outlook I see unless we somehow got double Vezina winners in Murray and Samsonov.

 

[rocketman588]

The roster churn is definitely a sign that the organization isn’t in good health overall. The cap pressures have resulted in a revolving door on mercenaries coming in to bet on themselves and a successful season is basically rewarded with a ticket to Edmonton.

Secondly the in house developmental system is drying up and the Leafs were so focused on finding the next small skilled forward that now you have a small army of 5’10” ish forwards kind of not pushing up, but relied on to fill bottom 6 roles which they aren’t physically built to do.

Thirdly we are churning future assets just re-solving the same problems every deadline on all in moves - when not using draft capital to fix cap mistakes.

I think this team needs to get Matthews and Nylander and Marner re-signed, take a step back and reload on a down year and then hit it hard again once JT is off the books and the cap goes up. That’s the most plausible medium term outlook I see unless we somehow got double Vezina winners in Murray and Samsonov.

Small skilled forwards and puck moving D.

It's partially why there's no spot for Sandin. And also why knies is so valuable to the pool

 

[Felix the Cat Potvin]

We're often compared (by management) to Washington, a highly skilled team that had to go through several playoff defeats before ultimately winning the Cup.

Washington added Lars Eller (a physical, very good 3rd line centre with some scoring potential) for a couple second round picks, filling an important need. Who will be Dubas's Lars Eller? No candidate as of yet.

They had young very good players coming up through the system (Vrana, Wilson, Burakovsky) due to keeping all their first round picks despite going for it every year. Who will be Dubas's Vrana, Wilson and Burakovsky? No candidates as of yet.

They had executed a great trade for TJ Oshie, adding secondary scoring and size. Who will be Dubas's TJ Oshie? No candidate as of yet.

I won't even go into the other team we're compared to (Tampa Bay) because the genius of that management regime makes Dubas look like a preschooler.

These are the actual challenges that Dubas must accomplish: making similar excellent moves that push our roster to the level of champions. I don't understand why the expectations are so low: he only moved back 13 spots... he only did what he could considering our cap situation... he couldn't control us facing a very good team in the first round...

There's running it back when you're in a situation similar to Washington with very good talent coming up through the system. There's running it back when you're us and there are no obvious difference makers coming up through the system. The cost of our management team going for it every year and failing miserably.

 

[Gabriel426]

This might be just lip service but this is a quote from Ross Atkins regarding the Jays.
"This is a collective setback and ultimately that starts with me,"

Leafs should hire Jays PR bc in just one sentence, it shows everyone(players included) needs to be accountable, I am taking it now, you(players) are next.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

My Leafs buddies Dubas homer checklist:

1.) Blame Lou for the Zaitsev contract 4 years after the fact.
2.) Patrick Marleau
3.) Hindsight is 20/20 regarding the Tavares deal
4.) Goalies are weird and unpredictable
5.) Trust the process
6.) Vegas bookmakers have good odds for the Leafs

 

[rocketman588]

We're often compared (by management) to Washington, a highly skilled team that had to go through several playoff defeats before ultimately winning the Cup.

Washington added Lars Eller (a physical, very good 3rd line centre with some scoring potential) for a couple second round picks, filling an important need. Who will be Dubas's Lars Eller? No candidate as of yet.

They had young very good players coming up through the system (Vrana, Wilson, Burakovsky) due to keeping all their first round picks despite going for it every year. Who will be Dubas's Vrana, Wilson and Burakovsky? No candidates as of yet.

They had executed a great trade for TJ Oshie, adding secondary scoring and size. Who will be Dubas's TJ Oshie? No candidate as of yet.

I won't even go into the other team we're compared to (Tampa Bay) because the genius of that management regime makes Dubas look like a preschooler.

These are the actual challenges that Dubas must accomplish: making similar excellent moves that push our roster to the level of champions. I don't understand why the expectations are so low: he only moved back 13 spots... he only did what he could considering our cap situation... he couldn't control us facing a very good team in the first round...

There's running it back when you're in a situation similar to Washington with very good talent coming up through the system. There's running it back when you're us and there are no obvious difference makers coming up through the system. The cost of our management team going for it every year and failing miserably.

One of our absolute biggest issues is that our second line also doesn't seem to mesh at the level it needs to.

We either need to ship someone out to change the chemistry on that line or flip willy with Mitch.

Mitch I think works a lot better with JT and AM needs to be able to play with willy as a superstar.

You can't do shit like demote willy to line three again

We're often compared (by management) to Washington, a highly skilled team that had to go through several playoff defeats before ultimately winning the Cup.

Washington added Lars Eller (a physical, very good 3rd line centre with some scoring potential) for a couple second round picks, filling an important need. Who will be Dubas's Lars Eller? No candidate as of yet.

They had young very good players coming up through the system (Vrana, Wilson, Burakovsky) due to keeping all their first round picks despite going for it every year. Who will be Dubas's Vrana, Wilson and Burakovsky? No candidates as of yet.

They had executed a great trade for TJ Oshie, adding secondary scoring and size. Who will be Dubas's TJ Oshie? No candidate as of yet.

I won't even go into the other team we're compared to (Tampa Bay) because the genius of that management regime makes Dubas look like a preschooler.

These are the actual challenges that Dubas must accomplish: making similar excellent moves that push our roster to the level of champions. I don't understand why the expectations are so low: he only moved back 13 spots... he only did what he could considering our cap situation... he couldn't control us facing a very good team in the first round...

There's running it back when you're in a situation similar to Washington with very good talent coming up through the system. There's running it back when you're us and there are no obvious difference makers coming up through the system. The cost of our management team going for it every year and failing miserably.

One of our absolute biggest issues is that our second line also doesn't seem to mesh at the level it needs to.

We either need to ship someone out to change the chemistry on that line or flip willy with Mitch.

Mitch I think works a lot better with JT and AM needs to be able to play with willy as a superstar.

You can't do shit like demote willy to line three again

 

[DarkKnight]

Just watched Dubas’ presser from yesterday, usually his wordsmith charm can nicely leaving one felling optimistic, at least for a moment. This time it just sounded like word salad to me, and the continually praise of players that left was weird. His whole demeanour left me flat.

 

[supermann_98]

Hope a few of you know the answers to my questions.

In light of the Jonny G fiasco.

I noticed Matthews is signed up to and including the 2023-2024 after which he becomes an UFA.
He has a full NMC clause for 2023-24.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that teams can only start renegotiating a new contract from the 1st of July of the last year. If that's true and Auston refuses to talk, or they can't come to an agreement, then it also means Leafs can't trade him as of July 1 2023 (unless he agrees) and if he decides to leave after the 2023-24 season, he can leave.

I'm one that believes he will leave and if everything I've said above Matthews agent pulled a fast one on Dubas.

Matthews is not going to be as open and shut to re-sign as some of the optimists in here think. After next season he has ALL the leverage to get paid whatever he wants and Dubas, or whoever the GM is at this time next year, will have no choice but to give him a massive deal that sets the new bar in the league, or trade him if he's not going to take that money.

If the Leafs flame out in the 1st round next year Dubas, Keefe, maybe even Shanny will be gone: job not well done, utter failure, disgrace. Will Matthews have any loyalty to the new management team? Even if he does, will he want to leave for a fresh start elsewhere, somewhere he'll be given the captaincy as the undisputed leader of the team?

If there's even a hint of him not accepting a multi year extension next off season, you absolutely HAVE to deal him. You can't go into the season hoping a long term, or even shorter term deal, can be worked out once the season starts. You can't even trade him once the season starts due to the unprecedented NTC he got on top of his high salary and short term deal.

You can't wait until the following season only to hear him say he wants to live elsewhere due to "family", wanting to live in the states due to Covid restrictions, personal privacy, mental health or blah blah blah like that.

His only loyalties in Toronto are to his teammates and maybe justin Beiber. They're all rich mofos like him and they'll all support him not matter what he does and if he wants to live closer to family, he's gone.

 

[Stephen]

We're often compared (by management) to Washington, a highly skilled team that had to go through several playoff defeats before ultimately winning the Cup.

Washington added Lars Eller (a physical, very good 3rd line centre with some scoring potential) for a couple second round picks, filling an important need. Who will be Dubas's Lars Eller? No candidate as of yet.

They had young very good players coming up through the system (Vrana, Wilson, Burakovsky) due to keeping all their first round picks despite going for it every year. Who will be Dubas's Vrana, Wilson and Burakovsky? No candidates as of yet.

They had executed a great trade for TJ Oshie, adding secondary scoring and size. Who will be Dubas's TJ Oshie? No candidate as of yet.

I won't even go into the other team we're compared to (Tampa Bay) because the genius of that management regime makes Dubas look like a preschooler.

These are the actual challenges that Dubas must accomplish: making similar excellent moves that push our roster to the level of champions. I don't understand why the expectations are so low: he only moved back 13 spots... he only did what he could considering our cap situation... he couldn't control us facing a very good team in the first round...

There's running it back when you're in a situation similar to Washington with very good talent coming up through the system. There's running it back when you're us and there are no obvious difference makers coming up through the system. The cost of our management team going for it every year and failing miserably.

The Leaf comparisons have really relied on superficial similarities to a number of builds but the reality is Washington and Tampa both developed core star pieces while they were already contenders (Carlson, Kuznetsov, Holtby, Kucherov, Point, Vasilevskiy). We are failing to do this at this moment.

We also can’t rely on this inevitability model of success. Management needs to do a lot more to stay agile, get a lot better with fewer resources. Or we take a step or two back and regroup, reassess and retool on the fly.

 

[Bomber0104]

Matthews is not going to be as open and shut to re-sign as some of the optimists in here think. After next season he has ALL the leverage to get paid whatever he wants and Dubas, or whoever the GM is at this time next year, will have no choice but to give him a massive deal that sets the new bar in the league, or trade him if he's not going to take that money.

If the Leafs flame out in the 1st round next year Dubas, Keefe, maybe even Shanny will be gone: job not well done, utter failure, disgrace. Will Matthews have any loyalty to the new management team? Even if he does, will he want to leave for a fresh start elsewhere, somewhere he'll be given the captaincy as the undisputed leader of the team?

If there's even a hint of him not accepting a multi year extension next off season, you absolutely HAVE to deal him. You can't go into the season hoping a long term, or even shorter term deal, can be worked out once the season starts. You can't even trade him once the season starts due to the unprecedented NTC he got on top of his high salary and short term deal.

You can't wait until the following season only to hear him say he wants to live elsewhere due to "family", wanting to live in the states due to Covid restrictions, personal privacy, mental health or blah blah blah like that.

His only loyalties in Toronto are to his teammates and maybe justin Beiber. They're all rich mofos like him and they'll all support him not matter what he does and if he wants to live closer to family, he's gone.

Not possible since he has a full NMC kick in next July 1, which is precisely when the Leafs can begin talking to his representation about a new contract. They'll have no ability to trade him if he won't re-sign.

That was done quite purposefully on the part of Matthews' camp so he can absolutely put the screws to Toronto and dictate precisely what he re-signs for (max), or allow himself to walk to UFA without being traded.

Matthews, to date, has taken every avenue towards maximizing his hockey-related earnings whether that was shunning junior hockey to go instantly earn a salary in Switzerland, maxing out his rookie bonuses, bending over Kyle Dubas for an outrageous 5-year deal with the aforementioned NMC in the final year...

Is anyone that naïve to think he isn't going to test the UFA market the first available chance he gets?

 

[saffronleaf]

Just watched Dubas’ presser from yesterday, usually his wordsmith charm can nicely leaving one felling optimistic, at least for a moment. This time it just sounded like word salad to me, and the continually praise of players that left was weird. His whole demeanour left me flat.

he seemed sad, tired, drained, weak