Derek Dorsett

[arsmaster*]

Kenins is a 3rd liner now, Jimson?

Horvat's numbers were better when you slotted in kenins for Dorsett and the offense exploded too.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

He's a 45.8% Corsi player over the last 4 seasons and when he's on the bench his teams have been 50.6%. He has been a poor possession player for his whole career.

whats the corsi for your average 4th line NHL player? The sort of comparison you just made isn't statistically sound.

 

[Scurr]

He's a 45.8% Corsi player over the last 4 seasons and when he's on the bench his teams have been 50.6%. He has been a poor possession player for his whole career.

That's exactly what you'd expect from a guy playing on the third and fourth lines. QOT is the single greatest contributor to possession stats.

Like I said, he played well below his career average.

 

[arsmaster*]

whats the corsi for your average 4th line NHL player? The sort of comparison you just made isn't statistically sound.

He's posted this many times. Jimson.

It's worse than the other 4th liners on the rangers he's being compared too.

 

[Scurr]

But that rookie center performed vastly better when not paired with DD.

IMO Horvat was sub replacement level (some disagree) until Christmas and most people think Vey is hot garbage.

 

[arsmaster*]

I suggest you read more of opendoor's posts. He's posted on this exact topic many times. Suggesting he's being disingenious with his stats shows you've never read his numerous posts on exactly this topic before.

 

[Scurr]

He's posted this many times. Jimson.

It's worse than the other 4th liners on the rangers he's being compared too.

Is it fair to call Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore "4th liners"? I've been pimping Boyle to be our 3C for a number of years.

 

[opendoor]

That's exactly what you'd expect from a guy playing on the third and fourth lines. QOT is the single greatest contributor to possession stats.

Why haven't guys like Hansen, Kassian, or Richardson had poor possession numbers when playing on the bottom 2 lines for the Canucks?

 

[opendoor]

whats the corsi for your average 4th line NHL player? The sort of comparison you just made isn't statistically sound.

Why would you compare a guy making $2.65M and getting 3rd line minutes to an average 4th liner?

 

[Scurr]

Why haven't guys like Hansen, Kassian, or Richardson had poor possession numbers when playing on the bottom 2 lines for the Canucks?

Because they typically avoid the "4th" line. Hansen didn't this season… and his number suffered.

 

[arsmaster*]

Is it fair to call Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore "4th liners"? I've been pimping Boyle to be our 3C for a number of years.

Their what 4th liners are on good teams, no?

Conference finalist have these guys in their bottom 6 and on the 4th line.

Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore's caphits are both less.

So while Dorsett gets the tag "elite 4th liner" here, it seems as though he's not, because other teams are paying better players who do more for their teams less.

These guys actually "check" the other teams good players. Dorsett is a great energy player. I'll give him that. Good teams don't pay that much for energy.

Actually good teams have kids doing it at a fraction of the price, and they're more effective (Ferland) because they're not sitting with a comfortable $10m in the bank.

 

[canucksfan]

Their what 4th liners are on good teams, no?

Conference finalist have these guys in their bottom 6 and on the 4th line.

Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore's caphits are both less.

So while Dorsett gets the tag "elite 4th liner" here, it seems as though he's not, because other teams are paying better players who do more for their teams less.

These guys actually "check" the other teams good players. Dorsett is a great energy player. I'll give him that. Good teams don't pay that much for energy.

Actually good teams have kids doing it at a fraction of the price, and they're more effective (Ferland) because they're not sitting with a comfortable $10m in the bank.

And they don't gas towards the end of the season. Dorsett has a lot of mileage on his body and I think that took a toll on him towards the end of the season and in the playoffs. He was completely useless after game 2.

 

[arsmaster*]

And they don't gas towards the end of the season. Dorsett has a lot of mileage on his body and I think that took a toll on him towards the end of the season and in the playoffs. He was completely useless after game 2.

He wasn't even good in the first two games. I posted as much in here at the time.

The crown jewel of Dorsett's playoffs (outside the sucker punch on Engylland) was goading Ferland into dropping his mitts.

The other team didn't feel his energy. He was a complete non-factor in the playoffs, like he has been his entire career.

 

[Scurr]

Their what 4th liners are on good teams, no?

Conference finalist have these guys in their bottom 6 and on the 4th line.

Brian Boyle and Dominic Moore's caphits are both less.

I think if you're calling Boyle a 4th liner -he's got to be the best in the league.

So while Dorsett gets the tag "elite 4th liner" here, it seems as though he's not, because other teams are paying better players who do more for their teams less.

These guys actually "check" the other teams good players. Dorsett is a great energy player. I'll give him that. Good teams don't pay that much for energy.

Actually good teams have kids doing it at a fraction of the price, and they're more effective (Ferland) because they're not sitting with a comfortable $10m in the bank.

Dorsett was on a line with those guys that did check. Very well. And they were better with him than without, too.

 

[arsmaster*]

And Boyle makes 25% less than Dorsett to be the best.

That's part of the problem.

That's why the mentorship and the energy gets dissected every few weeks here.....because we're paying a premium for "intangibles" that we already have.

I personally think Kenins can do everything that Dorsett can, other than 16 mean nothing fights a year.

The other part of the problem is that he's going to turn 29 early into next season. Now we're blocking kids with a 29 year old and we just acquired a 31 year old.

I thought we were getting younger? Locking in an overpaid energy line player until he's 33 sucks when the direction should be to get younger.

 

[I in the Eye]

"A cell culture exhibiting a persistent infection; only a small fraction of the cell population is infected, but the viruses released when the infected cells die infect a small number of other cells.".. a.k.a. a Carrier Culture: http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/carrier+culture

Dorsett is a Carrier Culture for his linemates... A persistent infection for other Canuck players on the ice... Immune systems that fight errors get weakened. On-ice effectiveness dwindles, and dies. Bring in a new linemate? He gets infected too.

Donald Dorsett: The Canucks' $2.6m Carrier Culture Culture Carrier.

 

[Scurr]

And Boyle makes 25% less than Dorsett to be the best.

That's part of the problem.

That's why the mentorship and the energy gets dissected every few weeks here.....because we're paying a premium for "intangibles" that we already have.

I personally think Kenins can do everything that Dorsett can, other than 16 mean nothing fights a year.

The other part of the problem is that he's going to turn 29 early into next season. Now we're blocking kids with a 29 year old and we just acquired a 31 year old.

I thought we were getting younger? Locking in an overpaid energy line player until he's 33 sucks when the direction should be to get younger.

It doesn't haven't any bearing on his possession stats or how people have chosen to use them.

 

[arsmaster*]

It doesn't haven't any bearing on his possession stats or how people have chosen to use them.

Right on.

I don't know or really care enough about possession stats to debate them, I'll leave that to the "crowd", I'm pretty eye testy anyways.

He's worse...you've admitted that, and he makes less.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Why would you compare a guy making $2.65M and getting 3rd line minutes to an average 4th liner?

Because his wage has little to do with this. That was negotiated between his agent and the GM.

 

[pitseleh]

That's exactly what you'd expect from a guy playing on the third and fourth lines. QOT is the single greatest contributor to possession stats.

Like I said, he played well below his career average.

Because they typically avoid the "4th" line. Hansen didn't this season… and his number suffered.

This doesn't explain his poor WOWYs though.

There isn't anything inherently bad about playing on the fourth line - good teams regularly run out depth players who at least tread water in possession - but yes, playing with inferior teammates will lessen your Corsi.

But if other players consistently see their Corsi get dragged down when they play with you, you are likely the problem.

 

[pitseleh]

Because his wage has little to do with this. That was negotiated between his agent and the GM.

It's clear that people's problem with Dorsett is not the player himself but the price the team paid for him.

If Dorsett made under $1 million, most of the complaining would go away.

 

[Scurr]

This doesn't explain his poor WOWYs though.

There isn't anything inherently bad about playing on the fourth line - good teams regularly run out depth players who at least tread water in possession - but yes, playing with inferior teammates will lessen your Corsi.

But if other players consistently see their Corsi get dragged down when they play with you, you are likely the problem.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=997&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=997&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

His wowy stats with the Canucks are heavily affected by playing with pre-Christmas Horvat and Vey. They look terrible because while so many of the other wingers were playing with Hank, Bonino or Richardson when away from Dorsett he was tied almost exclusively to the rookies.

Kenins/Horvat/Hansen
McMillan/Vey/Dorsett

It's not just that Horvat got away from Dorsett… he also got a much better landing spot.

I'm not arguing Dorsett is a good player, I just don't think he's the anchor some portray. I feel like there would be more of an effort to increase the sample size and figure the player out if he were more well liked. This style of player and the intellectual crowd aren't a good fit, though.

 

[absolute garbage]

The problem is that Dorsett is being paid the absolute premium WITH a massive term (giving a 4th line fighter/energy guy four years when he's near the age 30 is insanity no matter what the money is).

And of course the fact that he is PeeWeeWillies favorite and he will be played too many minutes to the detriment of the team.

There's just no way this will be anything but bad for the organization.

 

[WTG]

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=997&withagainst=true&season=2014-15&sit=5v5
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=997&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

His wowy stats with the Canucks are heavily affected by playing with pre-Christmas Horvat and Vey. They look terrible because while so many of the other wingers were playing with Hank, Bonino or Richardson when away from Dorsett he was tied almost exclusively to the rookies.

Kenins/Horvat/Hansen
McMillan/Vey/Dorsett

It's not just that Horvat got away from Dorsett… he also got a much better landing spot.

I'm not arguing Dorsett is a good player, I just don't think he's the anchor some portray. I feel like there would be more of an effort to increase the sample size and figure the player out if he were more well liked. This style of player and the intellectual crowd aren't a good fit, though.

Can't blame it all on Horvat and Vey

Literally everyone that plays with him gets his corsi dragged down.

Dorsett's just not a very good player. That got very lucky this year and got a huge paycheck.

 

[Scurr]

Can't blame it all on Horvat and Vey

Literally everyone that plays with him gets his corsi dragged down.

Dorsett's just not a very good player. That got very lucky this year and got a huge paycheck.

This season.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=997&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5

He played significant minutes with players that were better with him than without just last season.