Derek Dorsett

[Scurr]

It isn't binary. Players work ethics and a multitude of other soft attributes (attitudes, leadership, etc) are a broad spectrum. Certainly compared to you and I they all "work hard", but within the NHL ranks there are still degrees of separation.

That said, I don't think Dorsett or Prust are considered "good mentors" simply because they work hard. As I've suggested in numerous posts, it is far more likely because they have a certain personality type - generous, approachable, etc - that makes them more suited to helping out a 19 yo kid learn the NHL ropes. Has nothing to do with skill or talent or working hard. Just comes down to being the right 'type' of person. Ryan Kesler was probably the hardest worker this team has had in recent years yet I don't get the impression he would have been willing to spend more than 5 minutes of his time helping out a young kid. Kesler's work ethic was all about Kesler, not other people.

Keep in mind I am not saying Virtanen should be placed on a line with Prust or Dorsett. In fact, I think that would be detrimental to his long-term development. Learning how to PLAY the game should definitely come from higher-end guys that can teach the nuances of timing, positioning, etc. This is where spending time ON THE ICE with the Sedins, Burrows, etc would be the way to go.

But there is nothing wrong with rooming Virtanen with Dorsett/Prust and letting them help these kids make the transition to NHL life.

They are two separate things.

Well said as usual. I'm sure the twins are great people and approachable… I'm not sure how many of these young guys are going to be into horses and horse racing, though. It's also nice to have vets that are relatable to these young guys.

Hard work is not a rare trait amongst NHL hockey players.
When you say this player works real hard, it has no real meaning because everyone works hard. Look at Doughty, he learned how to work real hard from a coach. LA didn't bring in a 4th line overpaid plug to teach him the value in working hard.

For example, I work bloody hard, probably harder than any of my peers, I learned that from being in a competitive environment where everyone works hard. When I was looking for a mentor, I don't go find a guy who works harder than me, I found a guy who knows a great deal more than me, a guy who can teach me things that would otherwise take a long time for me to figure out. A mentor should teach you things you don't know, things that he/she has learned through their experience.

We need someone who knows how to succeed to mentor Virtanen, to teach him the things to do to be successful. He can pickup "hard work" from just watching how every player prepares themselves.

Neither is skill.

I think it's because there is a tendency to assume that less skilled players are "working harder" by default, for the same reason that guys who have an angry facial expression or more animated movements are assumed to care more, etc., or how defensemen who provide no offense are thought to be better at defending. It's a rationalization and it's based on superficial stuff. It probably is mythical, because it's always so predictable who gets tagged with the "hard-working" label -- less skilled North Americans who play a physical game.

This is offensive. There is a lot more to support this argument with Dorsett and Prust than them being North American and plugs.

 

[WTG]

Hard work is not a rare trait amongst NHL hockey players.
When you say this player works real hard, it has no real meaning because everyone works hard. Look at Doughty, he learned how to work real hard from a coach. LA didn't bring in a 4th line overpaid plug to teach him the value in working hard.

For example, I work bloody hard, probably harder than any of my peers, I learned that from being in a competitive environment where everyone works hard. When I was looking for a mentor, I don't go find a guy who works harder than me, I found a guy who knows a great deal more than me, a guy who can teach me things that would otherwise take a long time for me to figure out. A mentor should teach you things you don't know, things that he/she has learned through their experience.

We need someone who knows how to succeed to mentor Virtanen, to teach him the things to do to be successful. He can pickup "hard work" from just watching how every player prepares themselves.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.



These kinds of players, the Dorsett's and Prusts, aren't necessary. We aren't Edmonton, we aren't a team that has huge issues in the locker room. I'd feel more comfortable if we got guys like Higgins, Hansen, Burrows mentoring our top prospects than face punchers.

 

[Scurr]

Offensive? You sure you're not being too sensitive?

List the first 5 players you can think of that are the "hard working" type.

Sidney Crosby is the hardest working player in the game imo.

 

[arsmaster*]

Sidney Crosby is the hardest working player in the game imo.

Fair enough, but the idea that players like Dorsett get tagged with "hard worker" isn't offensive. It's predictable.

The Twins probably work harder than Dorsett too, but Dorsett seems to have his effort lauded because he's small and un-skilled comparative to his peers.

I think jyrki is bang on.

 

[arttk]

Sidney Crosby is the hardest working player in the game imo.

Yeah but the main trait people identify with Crosby is the best hockey player in the world, not the hardest working hockey player in the world.

I am assuming he is asking for you to list out guys who are ONLY known for their hardwork and nothing else.

 

[Scurr]

Fair enough, but the idea that players like Dorsett get tagged with "hard worker" isn't offensive. It's predictable.

The Twins probably work harder than Dorsett too, but Dorsett seems to have his effort lauded because he's small and un-skilled comparative to his peers.

I think jyrki is bang on.

You think my arguments are that simple? IDK why you bother to respond, then.

Yeah but the main trait people identify with Crosby is the best hockey player in the world, not the hardest working hockey player in the world.

I am assuming he is asking for you to list out guys who are ONLY known for their hardwork and nothing else.

Benning should have gone and got crosby instead… he'd make a great mentor. Unfortunately, it's difficult to fill out your roster with high end players that are also known for their work ethic and professionalism.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Fair enough, but the idea that players like Dorsett get tagged with "hard worker" isn't offensive. It's predictable.

The Twins probably work harder than Dorsett too, but Dorsett seems to have his effort lauded because he's small and un-skilled comparative to his peers.

I think jyrki is bang on.

How did you measure who works harder?

 

[WTG]

How did you measure who works harder?

Dorsett doesn't even come close to the expectations that the Twins have.

Deal with the media every damn day.

They are franchise players and expected to play like franchise players. I bet they work their assess off.


Whereas a guy like Dorsett only has to look good on the ice. He's not expected to score, not expected to handle the media, not expected to put the team on his back.

Dorsett just skates around.

 

[CanaFan]

Even if they are generous, generosity should not cost 2.5M each considering we are talking about 2 4th line plugs. Yeah they are good 4th line players, but at the end of the day they are 4th line players and we are paying like 1M more and justifying it because they are "hard working good mentors".

I am pretty damn sure you can find a lot of generosity by paying somebody league min. Hell like another poster said earlier, get Ryan Walter and he'll be cheaper than that.

Bringing up Kesler reminds me of what Sundin did to the Sedins and Kesler. Now THAT is what you call a good mentor. Hell look at what Lemieux did to Crosby. Even in the province article that talks about how Linden et all were trying to learn from the Spurs. The Spurs brought back former ALL-STARS to be mentors, not bench players who act like cheer leaders. I have no idea how they translated the concept of bringing in hard working former All-stars to bring in 4th line plugs to be mentors.

I think if you separate what you've said about Dorsett (and I'd toss Prust in there too) from the COST to acquire/sign them, then you'd realize we are probably all on the same page here. The cost is the problem, not the player or the idea of acquiring these types of 'good guys' to help transition the young guys.

As a strategy alone? I think it's fine.

How it has been executed? I think Benning has overpaid for what he's getting.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Dorsett doesn't even come close to the expectations that the Twins have.

Deal with the media every damn day.

They are franchise players and expected to play like franchise players. I bet they work their assess off.


Whereas a guy like Dorsett only has to look good on the ice. He's not expected to score, not expected to handle the media, not expected to put the team on his back.

Dorsett just skates around.

Yes their expectations are different but how does one measure who works harder?

 

[arsmaster*]

I think if you separate what you've said about Dorsett (and I'd toss Prust in there too) from the COST to acquire/sign them, then you'd realize we are probably all on the same page here. The cost is the problem, not the player or the idea of acquiring these types of 'good guys' to help transition the young guys.

As a strategy alone? I think it's fine.

How it has been executed? I think Benning has overpaid for what he's getting.

It's not even the strategy that is flawed. It's suggesting that they didn't have these types of players before.

That Chris Higgins, Nick Bonino, Alex Burrows, Dan Hamhuis etc etc etc couldn't do that. They PAID A PREMIUM. You can't discard that because generally you pay a premium for what you don't have, not what you have in abundance.....this team is the oldest team in the NHL, no?

You'd think each and every one of these vets knows a thing or two about breaking a guy into the show.

You're paying a premium for redundancy and a lack of talent (prust and dorsett). Ronalds Kenins does everything better than Dorsett at 1/4 the cost, but he doesn't get punched in the face 17 times a season.

The premium paid for reliability and "leadership" or "mentorship" is a problem.

 

[VanCity Millionaires]

Even if they are generous, generosity should not cost 2.5M each considering we are talking about 2 4th line plugs. Yeah they are good 4th line players, but at the end of the day they are 4th line players and we are paying like 1M more and justifying it because they are "hard working good mentors".

I am pretty damn sure you can find a lot of generosity by paying somebody league min. Hell like another poster said earlier, get Ryan Walter and he'll be cheaper than that.

Bringing up Kesler reminds me of what Sundin did to the Sedins and Kesler. Now THAT is what you call a good mentor. Hell look at what Lemieux did to Crosby. Even in the province article that talks about how Linden et all were trying to learn from the Spurs. The Spurs brought back former ALL-STARS to be mentors, not bench players who act like cheer leaders. I have no idea how they translated the concept of bringing in hard working former All-stars to bring in 4th line plugs to be mentors.

The Spurs just resigned Matt Bonner...

 

[ahmon]

Dorsett doesn't even come close to the expectations that the Twins have.

Deal with the media every damn day.

They are franchise players and expected to play like franchise players. I bet they work their assess off.


Whereas a guy like Dorsett only has to look good on the ice. He's not expected to score, not expected to handle the media, not expected to put the team on his back.

Dorsett just skates around.

And yet Dorsett finished with 25 pts playing physical on the 4th line.

What were you expecting?

 

[Zaddy91]

Genorosity and hard work are terrible words to use.

Dorsett and prust just dont have kids. Or are snobs with their time.

Does crosby or sedins have the time to take virtanen to lunch after practice and explain the work ethic needed? Not a chance too much charity work and trying to spend time with the kids.

I know the argument is moot cuz dorsett with 27 points is a plug srrry if u say that your stupid outright stupid

Prust and dorsett arnt good leaders by example like toews or seabrook. But benning has identified leaderahip as a weakness on this team and seeing what the old core is doing to get paid it doesnt suprise me.

We have never had a good leadership group

 

[CanaFan]

It's not even the strategy that is flawed. It's suggesting that they didn't have these types of players before.

That Chris Higgins, Nick Bonino, Alex Burrows, Dan Hamhuis etc etc etc couldn't do that. They PAID A PREMIUM. You can't discard that because generally you pay a premium for what you don't have, not what you have in abundance.....this team is the oldest team in the NHL, no?

You'd think each and every one of these vets knows a thing or two about breaking a guy into the show.

Bolded is an assumption that isn't necessarily correct. I do believe there is something "off" in the culture of this team. Whether it is innate in the players or the result of the last few years of heart-wrenching defeats, this group does not strike me as brimming with "character" (however you wish to define that). A guy like Hamhuis is a great player and seems like a really nice person, but he also strikes me as a fairly quiet and to-himself personality. Is he the type of personality that is going to work with a young kid or is he going to say hi and put his head down to worry about his own business?

I don't know because as a fan I'm not in the room, but I don't completely discount the notion that this group does need a different dynamic in terms of personalities (not just skill).

As such, I don't dislike the strategy of bringing in guys who are considered 'character'. What I DO dislike is paying the price of Kassian + a 5th for it or paying it $2.5M a year.

The premium paid for reliability and "leadership" or "mentorship" is a problem.

This I 100% agree with.

 

[WTG]

And yet Dorsett finished with 25 pts playing physical on the 4th line.

What were you expecting?

For our 5th highest paid forward to play like he's the 5th highest paid forward?

Ronalds Kenins is basically a better/cheaper player that does the exact same thing that Dorsett does but for way less money.



Kenins in 5 NHL playoff games tied Dorsett's career playoff point totals.....

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

It's not even the strategy that is flawed. It's suggesting that they didn't have these types of players before.

That Chris Higgins, Nick Bonino, Alex Burrows, Dan Hamhuis etc etc etc couldn't do that. They PAID A PREMIUM. You can't discard that because generally you pay a premium for what you don't have, not what you have in abundance.....this team is the oldest team in the NHL, no?

You'd think each and every one of these vets knows a thing or two about breaking a guy into the show.

You're paying a premium for redundancy and a lack of talent (prust and dorsett). Ronalds Kenins does everything better than Dorsett at 1/4 the cost, but he doesn't get punched in the face 17 times a season.

The premium paid for reliability and "leadership" or "mentorship" is a problem.

The players you listed don't play on the 4th line. The 4th line needs leaders as well

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

For our 5th highest paid forward to play like he's the 5th highest paid forward?

Ronalds Kenins is basically a better/cheaper player that does the exact same thing that Dorsett does but for way less money.

Kenins is fighting 17 players next year, that's probably news to him

 

[ahmon]

For our 5th highest paid forward to play like he's the 5th highest paid forward?

Ronalds Kenins is basically a better/cheaper player that does the exact same thing that Dorsett does but for way less money.

Benning overpaid for Dorsett.

If you know who Dorsett is, you would never expect that.

He is a 4th liner, and played on our 4th line last year. And performed like a good 4th liner.

We can have both Kenins and Dorsett on the team.

 

[WTG]

Kenins is fighting 17 players next year, that's probably news to him

The only asset that Dorsett fighting brings is that he can't get a shift for the next 5 minutes.

 

[arttk]

I think if you separate what you've said about Dorsett (and I'd toss Prust in there too) from the COST to acquire/sign them, then you'd realize we are probably all on the same page here. The cost is the problem, not the player or the idea of acquiring these types of 'good guys' to help transition the young guys.

As a strategy alone? I think it's fine.

How it has been executed? I think Benning has overpaid for what he's getting.

I don't think you should set aside the cost when you think about it. It comes together, you can't just look at the "good", or less ****** side, and ignore the bad.

We overpaid, and the justification is they are good mentors. It's ****ing ******** and we all know it.

 

[WTG]

Benning overpaid for Dorsett.

If you know who Dorsett is, you would never expect that.

He is a 4th liner, and played on our 4th line last year. And performed like a good 4th liner.

We can have both Kenins and Dorsett on the team.

What's the use of a 4th liner on a team that basically has three 3rd lines?

 

[arttk]

You know I didn't realize so many people knew so much about mentorship. Very interesting reading people's points on this.

Because mentorship only applies to Hockey right?
When is the last time you see someone seek mentorship from a guy who is not really good at what he does?

 

[ahmon]

What's the use of a 4th liner on a team that basically has three 3rd lines?

Then maybe the problem is a lack of a 2nd line....

 

[canucksfan]

Kenins is fighting 17 players next year, that's probably news to him

Don't need fighters anymore. Lightning and Hawks didn't have fighters.