Rumor: DeBoer possibly getting fired?

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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My mistake, I meant Melker Karlsson’s last 42 regular season games. 1 goal and 3 assists.

Still, that’s goon level production from a guy who got punked by Nazem Kadri.

EDIT: Among all players who have played at least 42 games in that time frame (Since 2/19/2018), Melker Karlsson’s 4 points are dead last in the NHL. So, yeah, I definitely find it hard to believe that this guy would be playing on any other team.

So, by one fairly basic metric, despite being a forward, Melker Karlsson is quite literally the worst offensive player who plays regular minutes in the NHL. On top of that, unlike a lot of his other comparables, Melker still sees regular time in the top-9 when another player gets injured.

Therefore, I don’t think it’s accurate to suggest that literally any head coach replacement would play him without scratching him. I actually think that most head coaching replacements would pretty quickly scratch him after 10 games.
 
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Internazionale

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Apr 24, 2007
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Name me a team that doesn't ice one 4th line plug that could be replaced by a younger player. Firing Pete doesn't solve this issue because whoever they hire is going to do exactly what PDB is doing which is dressing Melker, playing him ~11 minutes a game, while giving him a ton of PK time.

You can play Hertl, Sorensen, Couture, Goodrow and other forwards on the PK and they'd do just fine. Other teams dont shuffle lines throughout the game as much as we do either.
 

WTFetus

Marlov
Mar 12, 2009
17,908
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Ya its actually 2 goals and 6 assists for 8 points in the last 52 games.

Last 50 games actually if we're just using the regular season. ;)

2-9-11 in the last 60 including post-season.

My mistake, I meant Melker Karlsson’s last 42 regular season games. 1 goal and 3 assists.

Still, that’s goon level production from a guy who got punked by Nazem Kadri.

EDIT: Among all players who have played at least 42 games in that time frame (Since 2/19/2018), Melker Karlsson’s 4 points are dead last in the NHL. So, yeah, I definitely find it hard to believe that this guy would be playing on any other team.

Yeah, but now you're just using arbitrary cut-offs to try and prove a point. Add an extra game and he now has 6 points. Where does he stand among players with 43 regular season games, or 50 regular season games?
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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Last 50 games actually if we're just using the regular season. ;)

2-9-11 in the last 60 including post-season.



Yeah, but now you're just using arbitrary cut-offs to try and prove a point. Add an extra game and he now has 6 points. Where does he stand among players with 43 regular season games, or 50 regular season games?

Arbitrary cut-offs aren't exactly a bad thing when you're looking at a large enough sample size. It's pretty obvious that the guy had fallen off of a cliff at the start of the 2017-2018 season, leeched a few points here and there due to favorable usage, and then fell even further off a cliff towards the end of last season and the start of this one.

Now, you're looking at a 42 game sample size where he is the worst offensive player in the NHL. He had a 2 point game in a blowout against Dallas where he was moved to the top line due to injury. Since then, over the course of 42 games, he has been the worst offensive player in the NHL.

If you want to pull things back further and look at a cut-off date that isn't cherry picked, let's just look at "since the start of 2018". Melker has played 65 games; among players who have played at least 65 games, his 11 points are 6th from last and 3rd from last among forwards. His 4 goals in that time frame are 16th from last and 3rd from last among forwards.

If you want to pull things back even further and look at the last calendar year (since 11/27/2017), Melker has played 77 games; among players who have played at least 77 games, his 15 points rank 10th from last and 6th from last among forwards. His 6 goals in that time frame are 32nd from last and 2nd from last among forwards.

If you want to take things back to the start of last season, Melker has played 95 games; among players who have played at least 95 games, his 21 points in that time frame rank 13th from last and 7th from last among forwards.

Last but not least, if you want to look at JUST THIS SEASON, Melker has played 24 games; among players who have played at least 24 games, his 1 goal ranks 2nd from last and his 2 points rank 3rd from last among all players.

So, for a TL;DR: While I am using a specific time frame that is most unflattering to Melker, it is also a large sample size which includes recent numbers. Any other cut-off points that one would use to pinpoint the beginning of his very steep decline - even a cut-off point that is intentionally flattering - would still be extremely unflattering in the grand scheme of things, and would still paint a picture of Melker Karlsson as one of the worst offensive players in the NHL. The reason that I compare him to players with at least as many games played as him is to show that there are few or no players in the NHL who produce as poorly as him and still get such a long leash WRT playing time and getting in the lineup.

What this information tells us is that there are very few head coaches who will absolutely refuse to healthy scratch a player whose production is as poor as Melker Karlsson. In fact, unlike Melker, who hasn't played 100% of the available games in this time frame due to injury, a lot of these other players (Ex. Ryan Reaves) that are near or below him on these lists have missed time due to being healthy scratched.

Given this information, we can reasonably conclude that we CAN NOT reasonably conclude that any replacement head coach would absolutely refuse to healthy scratch Melker Karlsson. Rather, a more reasonable conclusion is that most head coaches would healthy scratch a forward whose production is as putrid as Melker Karlsson; especially given that Melker Karlsson absolutely does not fight (he got punked by Nazem f***ing Kadri), while most putrid offensive forwards who stay in the lineup do so because they fight.
 

SjMilhouse

Registered User
Jul 18, 2012
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My whole point is why get worked up over something so trivial? Does Radil over Melker really make that big of a difference? In big games the 4th line is benched after the first period anyways.

I'm just tired of how toxic a handful of people on this board are and have been going back to last year. It's not enjoyable to visit this site anymore because we act like Karlsson in over Radil is literally the worst thing to happen in the NHL and a personal attack on the fans by PDB

It's one thing to make it a meme but people type out legit novels to vent their anger over a 4th liner getting 10 minutes a game in every thread, every day, forever
 

Anomie2029

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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My whole point is why get worked up over something so trivial? Does Radil over Melker really make that big of a difference? In big games the 4th line is benched after the first period anyways.

I'm just tired of how toxic a handful of people on this board are and have been going back to last year. It's not enjoyable to visit this site anymore because we act like Karlsson in over Radil is literally the worst thing to happen in the NHL and a personal attack on the fans by PDB

It's one thing to make it a meme but people type out legit novels to vent their anger over a 4th liner getting 10 minutes a game in every thread, every day, forever

Could it be because when PDB decides to use the line blender, who gets promoted? Melker Karlsson gets given extra minutes and paired with Jumbo or Pavs (frequently both), for what purpose? He doesn't produce. You can not tell me that Suomela between Radil and Goodrow would not be a better 4th line than any combination with Karlsson.

Also this attitude of "it's only the 4th line" is ridiculous. In the playoffs, our 4th line with Sorenson was, possibly, the teams best line and produced.
 
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Lebanezer

I'unno? Coast Guard?
Jul 24, 2006
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My whole point is why get worked up over something so trivial? Does Radil over Melker really make that big of a difference? In big games the 4th line is benched after the first period anyways.

I'm just tired of how toxic a handful of people on this board are and have been going back to last year. It's not enjoyable to visit this site anymore because we act like Karlsson in over Radil is literally the worst thing to happen in the NHL and a personal attack on the fans by PDB

It's one thing to make it a meme but people type out legit novels to vent their anger over a 4th liner getting 10 minutes a game in every thread, every day, forever
The issue with Melker isn’t that he’s just a poor 4th liner, it’s that he’s Deboer’s choice to bump up in the lineup when someone is struggling. He doesn’t play with enough energy or have enough skill to help in short stints on a struggling line. He actually has the reverse effect. If he was playing 5 minutes a game and was frequently benched like Goodrow or Suomela, people would be less likely to complain. They’d still complain, but not about Melker as much.
 
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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,362
25,435
Fremont, CA
My whole point is why get worked up over something so trivial? Does Radil over Melker really make that big of a difference? In big games the 4th line is benched after the first period anyways.

I'm just tired of how toxic a handful of people on this board are and have been going back to last year. It's not enjoyable to visit this site anymore because we act like Karlsson in over Radil is literally the worst thing to happen in the NHL and a personal attack on the fans by PDB

It's one thing to make it a meme but people type out legit novels to vent their anger over a 4th liner getting 10 minutes a game in every thread, every day, forever

Yes, Melker Karlsson in over Antti Suomela (or Lukas Radil) actually is a very very big deal. It is absolutely not something trivial whatsoever.

This board is not any different or more toxic than it was when McLellan was playing Douglas Murray over Justin Braun and Jason Demers.
 
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Fistfullofbeer

Moderator
May 9, 2011
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My whole point is why get worked up over something so trivial? Does Radil over Melker really make that big of a difference? In big games the 4th line is benched after the first period anyways.

I'm just tired of how toxic a handful of people on this board are and have been going back to last year. It's not enjoyable to visit this site anymore because we act like Karlsson in over Radil is literally the worst thing to happen in the NHL and a personal attack on the fans by PDB

It's one thing to make it a meme but people type out legit novels to vent their anger over a 4th liner getting 10 minutes a game in every thread, every day, forever

When the team is struggling, is it not better to play the options that give you the best chance to win than to go back to the option(s) that is not working and has not worked for a while? I think that is the big cause for frustration with a lot of Sharks fans. Infact, I am surprised you are dismissing the role of a player playing 10 minutes a game just because he is a 4th liner. The year we went to the SC, that depth was one of the reasons why. We have little to no scoring from the 4th line. Suomela has more points than Goodrow, Melker, Chartier, Radil, Gambrell ... combined. What does benching him really accomplish?

And, could you legitimately say that playing Suomela over Melker would not have made a legit difference yesterday? The game was tied at the end of regulation and Suomela is a much more versatile player than Melker.
 
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SjMilhouse

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When the team is struggling, is it not better to play the options that give you the best chance to win than to go back to the option(s) that is not working and has not worked for a while? I think that is the big cause for frustration with a lot of Sharks fans. Infact, I am surprised you are dismissing the role of a player playing 10 minutes a game just because he is a 4th liner. The year we went to the SC, that depth was one of the reasons why. We have little to no scoring from the 4th line. Suomela has more points than Goodrow, Melker, Chartier, Radil, Gambrell ... combined. What does benching him really accomplish?

And, could you legitimately say that playing Suomela over Melker would not have made a legit difference yesterday? The game was tied at the end of regulation and Suomela is a much more versatile player than Melker.
I agree with everyone that Suomela/anyone is better than Melker. I'm just tired of reading "PDB is a f***ing piece of f***ing shit how f***ing dare he dress Karlsson over ANYONE on this team that ignorant f***ing moron" in every single thread on this board

We get it, Karlsson in over anyone is dumb. But calm down and stop arguing so aggressively about it. It's not THAT big of a deal given the rest of the issues the team has

Edit: I forgot Nick Spaling, Wingles and Zubrus really tore it up with their sub 50 CF and combined 5 points in 24 games. I agree our depth was good in that run but the 4th line really just dominated in maybe 2 series and didn't really put up many points
 
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Fistfullofbeer

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May 9, 2011
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I agree with everyone that Suomela/anyone is better than Melker. I'm just tired of reading "PDB is a ****ing piece of ****ing **** how ****ing dare he dress Karlsson over ANYONE on this team that ignorant ****ing moron" in every single thread on this board

We get it, Karlsson in over anyone is dumb. But calm down and stop arguing so aggressively about it. It's not THAT big of a deal given the rest of the issues the team has

Edit: I forgot Nick Spaling, Wingles and Zubrus really tore it up with their sub 50 CF and combined 5 points in 24 games. I agree our depth was good in that run but the 4th line really just dominated in maybe 2 series and didn't really put up many points

All we can do is complain. I get that people at times go over the top but people express their anger and frustrations differently.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Oct 29, 2006
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All we can do is complain. I get that people at times go over the top but people express their anger and frustrations differently.

Honestly, that stuff is still not the most important issue with the coaching. It's the fact that 25 games into the season, we still don't know if the team is going to commit themselves defensively. That's on everyone and that includes coaching and eventually DW if he does nothing and the results continue to be inconsistent.
 

SjMilhouse

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Jul 18, 2012
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Honestly, that stuff is still not the most important issue with the coaching. It's the fact that 25 games into the season, we still don't know if the team is going to commit themselves defensively. That's on everyone and that includes coaching and eventually DW if he does nothing and the results continue to be inconsistent.
That's my point. Karlsson is an issue I worry about if the team is firing on all cylinders and the 4th line is getting destroyed. The team defense is atrocious at times, brain farts by the defense and stupid turnovers are leading to a lot of scoring chances and goals against, and it seems like guys are being asked (Vlasic for example) to do things they just don't have the skillset to do. Effort on a night to night basis also seems to still be an issue. Let's fix the big issues first then worry about why Karlsson or Goodrow should be scratched is all I'm saying....and maybe not be so aggressively angry in every single post someone makes
 

Used As A Shield

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Aug 10, 2011
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All we can do is complain. I get that people at times go over the top but people express their anger and frustrations differently.
To add to this: I mean, to those that don't like reading our complaints and frustrations, what are we supposed to do. Pretend we are happy with the status quo? Praise those on the team like they are doing good? We kept being told earlier in the season to ride it out, but we are quickly marching through the season and it's not getting better. Is there some cutoff date where it suddenly becomes ok to complain?

I also get it, some people here tend to have agenda's about certain topics or players, and you get fed their thoughts in every thread regardless of topic. If it is so frustrating just ignore the user(s) and carry on.
 

SnarkAttack

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Jan 18, 2011
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That's my point. Karlsson is an issue I worry about if the team is firing on all cylinders and the 4th line is getting destroyed. The team defense is atrocious at times, brain farts by the defense and stupid turnovers are leading to a lot of scoring chances and goals against, and it seems like guys are being asked (Vlasic for example) to do things they just don't have the skillset to do. Effort on a night to night basis also seems to still be an issue. Let's fix the big issues first then worry about why Karlsson or Goodrow should be scratched is all I'm saying....and maybe not be so aggressively angry in every single post someone makes

Or you could make the easy/obvious fix immediately while trying to solve the bigger problem.
 
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Fistfullofbeer

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May 9, 2011
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Or you could make the easy/obvious fix immediately while trying to solve the bigger problem.
That is my thinking too. You fix what is fixable right away before you worry about a mid-to-long term system fix.

Unless we have a massive turn-around by Xmas I am leaning towards PDB getting fired. DW will probably want to see a few more beatings like VGK before he is convinced though. I think these OT losses or Regulation losses with 1 goals will probably do enough to keep DW from firing PDB.

Maybe we pull what the Oilers did and fire PDB on 12/10. The day that we are supposed to play the Devils.

Or a reverse and fire him on 12/16, and hire Q on the day we are playing the Blackhawks.
 
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PattyLafontaine

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Apr 5, 2006
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I agree with everyone that Suomela/anyone is better than Melker. I'm just tired of reading "PDB is a ****ing piece of ****ing **** how ****ing dare he dress Karlsson over ANYONE on this team that ignorant ****ing moron" in every single thread on this board

We get it, Karlsson in over anyone is dumb. But calm down and stop arguing so aggressively about it. It's not THAT big of a deal given the rest of the issues the team has

Edit: I forgot Nick Spaling, Wingles and Zubrus really tore it up with their sub 50 CF and combined 5 points in 24 games. I agree our depth was good in that run but the 4th line really just dominated in maybe 2 series and didn't really put up many points

Except it is that big of a deal. It speaks volumes because it kills morale. I’m sure Melker is good guy, and I’m all for loyalty, but one of the worse things a coach can do is overplay the loyalty card because the players lose respect because they feel that they aren’t being judged fairly based on their performance.

Melker has been garbage and he’s one of the worse players in the NHL. What makes this worse is that the Sharks have so many interesting prospects that could be given games to see how they acclimate and what their ceiling might be.

DW is going all in for a cup then bring up Chehkovich, et al.
 
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SjMilhouse

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Jul 18, 2012
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Except it is that big of a deal. It speaks volumes because it kills morale. I’m sure Melker is good guy, and I’m all for loyalty, but one of the worse things a coach can do is overplay the loyalty card because the players lose respect because they feel that they aren’t being judged fairly based on their performance.

Melker has been garbage and he’s one of the worse players in the NHL. What makes this worse is that the Sharks have so many interesting prospects that could be given games to see how they acclimate and what their ceiling might be.

DW is going all in for a cup then bring up Chehkovich, et al.
Chehkovich is in juniors, not 20, and ineligible for the AHL until his junior season is up. But sure, let's call him up and then get stuck with him not playing hockey when he likely shows he isnt quite ready for the NHL.

I tend to trust the Wilson and Co are able to accurately judge the development of the players to decide the the C twins are not ready for full time NHL duty
 

Herschel

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
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Except it is that big of a deal. It speaks volumes because it kills morale. I’m sure Melker is good guy, and I’m all for loyalty, but one of the worse things a coach can do is overplay the loyalty card because the players lose respect because they feel that they aren’t being judged fairly based on their performance.

Melker has been garbage and he’s one of the worse players in the NHL. What makes this worse is that the Sharks have so many interesting prospects that could be given games to see how they acclimate and what their ceiling might be.

DW is going all in for a cup then bring up Chehkovich, et al.

Overplaying the loyalty card can backfire but IF the team knows and understands why Karlsson is dressing then I can be used to send a message. As a coach, you use ice-time to send messages to an individual player or the team.

None of us are in the dressing room but based on comments from the players the team is looking for more effort, better defensive play and to find their team identity. Karlsson may be doing everything the PDB is asking them to do and gets moved up because of all the small controllable things he does despite options that might have more talent.

I suspect during video sessions it is very clear to all the players why they Karlsson remains in the lineup night after night.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
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Folsom
I'm more upset about having three wingers play the 4th line than specifically Melker Karlsson being in the lineup. Goodrow is a damn fine 4th line winger and would be happy to have him there for what he brings but he's no center.
 

Anomie2029

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
3,897
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Melbourne, Australia
Overplaying the loyalty card can backfire but IF the team knows and understands why Karlsson is dressing then I can be used to send a message. As a coach, you use ice-time to send messages to an individual player or the team.

None of us are in the dressing room but based on comments from the players the team is looking for more effort, better defensive play and to find their team identity. Karlsson may be doing everything the PDB is asking them to do and gets moved up because of all the small controllable things he does despite options that might have more talent.

I suspect during video sessions it is very clear to all the players why they Karlsson remains in the lineup night after night.

This highlights even more reason why PDB should be fired. If Melker is doing exactly what he wants and expects of players, and he is still the worst player on the team, then it's clear what PDB wants is awful.

The thing is, I don't even dislike Melker. He was a useful bottom six player just two seasons ago, but his play has deteriorated at rate comparable to Braun
 

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