hohosaregood
Banned
- Sep 1, 2011
- 32,701
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Rumor: DeBoer possibly getting fired?
- Thread starter DG93
- Start date
ChompChomp
Can't wait for Sharks hockey to return someday
That's what I'm thinking too, at least interim. Well respected guy, already in the org, knows all the players, and although he lacks in on-ice in-game coaching experience, you give him two ACs with a ton of on-ice in-game coaching experience.
hohosaregood
Banned
- Sep 1, 2011
- 32,701
- 13,191
He also ends up coaching here and there for player development stuff like the prospect camps. Obviously not the specific type of coaching he'd need to replace but there's some experience there if push comes to shove.
ChompChomp
Can't wait for Sharks hockey to return someday
Press conferences are audio only after this move.
Mike Ricci to me was the face of the sharks when I was growing up and learned about how tough hockey is. I'd love to have him behind the bench.
Alaskanice
Registered User
I like the idea of Ricci as coach. When Deboer was hired, I posted that Ricci and Marchment should be assistant coaches.
Who could come back to the bench after giving less effort and face those two?
Who could come back to the bench after giving less effort and face those two?
JoeThorntonsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
Obviously, this would be done to keep the focus of the viewers on the game itself, rather than Denver’s sexiest man.
If Doug sticks with Deboer he’s putting his own job on the line, unless the Sharks get a lot better fast. If he fires Deboer and hires Quenneville he buys himself time and shows that he’s willing to do whatever he can to help the team win. As @JoeThorntonsRooster pointed out in a separate thread, the team has been playing a pathetic defensive style for a year now. I would be more willing to let Deboer figure it out if there weren’t a lot of important events intersecting right now. Jumbo is approaching the end, karlsson needs a new contract, traded all their 1sts, etc. it’s too big of a crossroads to hang it all on a coach who’s having a hard time getting the team going and has a history of failing hard after 3 years with a team.
Internazionale
Registered User
Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Exactly. If EK65 had already re-signed I would actually be willing to let PDB coach through the season and deal with the result.
Not sure if DW pulls his players into meetings to talk or not but he most definitely needs to do that with EK65. Figure out what EK65 thinks about it and consider that seriously. PDB's contract is up after this year anyway. Unless DW was seriously considering extending him, which I seriously doubt he does, letting PDB go now would be just cutting our losses.
BaileyMacTavish
Hockey lovin' wolf
JoeThorntonsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
Yup. People try to say that this season’s defensive woes are a new thing, and some have even gone as far as to blame this on Karlsson, but the truth is that we were a terrible defensive team for the last ~60 games of last season.
Since 11/23/2017, the date of our system change, we have the 6th worst 5V5 GA/60, at 2.63. The “system change” was supposed to save our offense, but our offense is 11th in the NHL with 2.5 5V5 GF/60.
Overall, in that time frame the team has the 12th worst 5V5 GF%, at 48.66%. The teams with an inferior 5V5 GF%: Ottawa, Vancouver, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Detroit, NYR, Arizona, St. Louis, New Jersey, and Montreal. That is terrible company!!!! And considering that this is an 88 game sample size, and that 5V5 GF% is the most important metric by which a team can be judged, we can conclude that something is broken. And given that we have had the same system, and the same coach over that time frame, we can conclude that things here are not about to change.
THIS IS OVER AN 88 GAME SAMPLE SIZE! It’s not new stuff with Erik Karlsson being integrated!
Tw1ster
Registered User
You’ve brought up the system change of last year a few times now, Would you be able to identify what the biggest difference is? Obviously they were a defensive juggernaut for the first quarter last year, is it the cycling the puck to the point or is it something else?
Pete said they flat out copied the Vegas system I think haha
JoeThorntonsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
I should preface this by saying that I am not a hockey systems expert, and that somebody else could make a better analysis on what exactly has changed. The only reason that I am so adamant about this system change is that they said they implemented it after the loss in Vegas, they clearly did implement some sort of change, and the numbers CLEARLY state that it was a bad decision.
However, from what I see:
-In the offensive zone, when the opposition has the puck and is attempting to exit the zone, the defensemen are very inclined to pinch at the blue line in order to keep the puck in the zone. This works sometimes, but when it doesn’t, it usually leads to odd-man rushes against, because the forwards usually don’t get back in the defensive zone to cover the odd-man in time. This partially explains why the Sharks give up a low to medium amount of shots against, but a high number of high danger chances and goals against.
-This works much better for a team like Vegas, partially because their forwards and defense are on the same page, and partially because their forwards are very fast and defensively responsible. That same system is not optimal for a team whose top forwards are Meier, Pavelski, Thornton, Hertl, and Couture.
-On top of that, the team doesn’t currently appear to have the level of commitment to defense necessary to fit that Vegas system. Vegas’ forwards made it a point to get back and avoid odd-man rushes. The committment to team defense isn’t there night in and night out and given the personnel they do have, even if they hunkered down and tried to do so, it likely wouldn’t be sustainable for the next 56 games and the playoffs.
-As @Lebanezer has mentioned in the past, the system, when executed properly, is very tiring for the players. They put in a ridiculous amount of effort to dominate possession generate a few measly point shots. This tires them out - perhaps because they don’t have the stamina of the Vegas personnel, and perhaps because they aren’t executing their dominance properly - and leaves the team very fatigued, both shift to shift, and period to period. This explains why their 1st periods are so strong and their 2nd periods are so poor. They expend a ton of energy to dominate possession and generate a high volume of mediocre scoring chances, score on a small amount of them, and then bleed goals when they are tired in the 2nd period and the opposition can pounce.
-The “cycle to the point, shoot it into the defender’s knees” thing that has become a meme lately was present as far back as 2016-2017, and so it isn’t directly tied to this system change, but it does appear to have been scouted and to have grown gradually worse.
I would love to hear what some other posters have to say.
tiburon12
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2009
- 4,970
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Wait the system change was that early last year? I seem to recall it being in mid-late December.
Regardless, the fact that we executed a full system change last year coupled with the fact we have done jack shit to rectify any of our issues this year is incredibly infuriating. It's like owning snow tires but refusing to put them on your car until after a blizzard....
sharski
Registered User
- Jun 4, 2012
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Jargon
Registered User
Fascinating post, thank you.
I think that stamina thing is EXACTLY what I've been noticing. It's not like this team looks bad... it's that it looks like they get tired 20 minutes into a game.
Satastic
Nazi punks **** off
Nolan11
Registered User
- Mar 5, 2013
- 3,236
- 334
Excellent post that rings true to me.
In my martial art, I often face off against opponents half my age. Much faster and offensively gifted mid-twenties opponents. My defense is stout enough to keep me in the match, usually allowing me to beat these guys in their prime. To do this, I often have to play faster than I can reasonably sustain. This uses immense amounts of energy. In later matches, I start to wear out and make mistakes, losing matches I should have won.
Our sharks seem to do the same. They are playing a system that needs more speed than our average player can sustain. (Then the wtf blender in the 3rd with a short bench just makes matters worse)
Good post Joe
This is a brilliant post. Agree with everything you wrote. Watching the team play defense reminds me of pickup hockey. The D always pinch and bleed chances. f*** the goalie, he needs the practice too.
JoeThorntonsRooster
Don’t say eye test when you mean points
Nobody can pinpoint exactly when it occurred but as I recall, when they talked about it, they said that after they played Vegas, they implemented a system change to try and do some of what Vegas had been doing.
One play that really stuck out to me as a flaw of the system was actually in the 4-0 shutout win against St. Louis. There was a play with roughly 7 minutes left in the 2nd period where the Blues recovered the puck in their zone, and Burns pinched to take away a passing lane. In doing so, the Blues had an opportunity to develop somewhat of an odd-man rush. Joakim Ryan was back against one Blues player, and Dylan Gambrell was supposed to be on another Blues player, but the other Blues player appeared to have a bit of a step on Gambrell.
I forget exactly what happened, but basically, one of the Blues didn't catch a pass clean and they lost the puck. I think it was an icing. I don't know exactly how to explain it, but this didn't appear to be "bad Burns" either. It seemed like he was making a conscious, calculated decision to execute the typical decision that fit the system, rather than the typical "bad Burns" decision.
But at that moment, the flaws of the system exploded in my face. Maybe it was a lack of foot speed, maybe it was a lack of communication, maybe it was a lack of Gambrell being bought into the system. I know it didn't lead to even a shot - much less a goal, or a scoring chance against, but this one really stuck out to me as a clear flaw of the system. Perhaps it was because the play appeared to be "business as usual" - there was no obvious breakdown, or guy to blame for a goal against, and so it didn't cause any agony. But it became clear to me right there just how seriously flawed our system is, and it is why I said in that GDT that I didn't really feel like they were all that much better defensively than they were in the prior loss to Toronto.
I really, really wish that I had recorded it.
Dicdonya
Registered User
- Jul 21, 2011
- 4,463
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Man I really hope DW doesn’t sit on his hands too long. EDM is winning games with the new coaching, we woke Vegas up(even though I think it’s actually that Tuch came back from injury) and they’re rolling now, Ana has been steadily winning games they shouldn’t because of Gibson, and even Ari is hiding, due to games played, in good position to overtake us.
Unless we turn this ship around soon, waiting until late Jan could be a death sentence.
Unless we turn this ship around soon, waiting until late Jan could be a death sentence.
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RickyHP
Registered User
Man, it would be great if we had a coach that had the chess mindset and figured out a system that would make this team play to its full potential. It gets frustrating when this organization has to always try to copy other systems. Why can't the sharks just utilize a system that works for them? Have someone else copy us for once. 
