Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[CLW]

There were only two games (including his very first game) last year where Fox played fewer than 15 minutes in a game, and only one game this season where he played fewer than 20. Do you expect us to believe that Fox developed while playing all of those minutes? When you have so clearly established that the only way to truly develop is to sit your ass on the bench and watch other guys play? If Fox played all those minutes, then SURELY the development he experienced was accidental, right?

Fox is also 23, older than Laine. Fox has spent a LOT of minutes playing and developing his game.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

See, this is exactly what I pointed at. The "simplistic mindset" you complain about is largely a construct of your own mind, it's bitching about the bitching.

No, it's not in my own mind. There are others. But that doesn't really matter.

And you didn't answer my question. You said Quinn is a good coach. How good in your opinion? If you rate him on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put him if 1-5 is unacceptable/weak? 5-7 mediocre to average, 8-10 good to outstanding? Do you see him as the right coach for the long term future for this franchise? Personally I think most people have him around 5-7 (7 if they are generous), which rates as "poor" imo, average is not good enough for a franchise like the Rangers. I struggle to see how a case of 8 or better can be made.

I fail to see what this inane exercise will achieve. What I will say is there has been far more positive to his tenure than negative. I'll let you fill in your own score for far more positive than negative.

Just because previous eras have been 1-5 for various reasons, and things are looking up, that does not mean average, even if an improvement, should be the acceptable standard. After 3 years Quinn's teams are still brittle, lack a spine and structure etc etc. 3 years have shown that Quinn is exactly like his previous coaching record, unremarkable.

I don't subscribe to your rating scale. But more importantly, I don't agree with the way you have characterized his teams.

Next year will bring an influx of fresh YOUNG rookie talent. Do you believe Quinn will do a good job of integrating them into a new Team?

Yes.

Compare with how Q reshaped Florida in less time , Brind'Amour created Carolina as a budding contender, Colorado built a juggernaut - to use 3 examples from within Quinn's time with the Rangers.

None of this is accurate either.

Compare with how Q reshaped Florida in less time ,

Florida has been rebuilding for the better part of of what 15 years? Since they lost in the 95-96 Cup final, do you want to know how many playoff series they've won? Zero point zero.

Brind'Amour created Carolina as a budding contender

Was Brind'Amour starting from point zero? No. And I remember more than a few people lusting over the coach he replaced.

Colorado built a juggernaut - to use 3 examples from within Quinn's time with the Rangers.

That's interesting. McKinnon was drafted 8 years ago. Langeskog was drafted 10 years ago. Rantanen 6
Makar 4 years ago. So this is hardly a synonymous situation to where the Rangers are. The Devils are closer to the Rangers. Prefer where they are?

Or is the point that if the Rangers had Quinneville, Bednar or Brind'Amour they would be true contender?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Fox is also 23, older than Laine. Fox has spent a LOT of minutes playing and developing his game.

They're both 23.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Again, I am not DQ super fan.

I don't there are any Quinn super fans. Or at least where there would be. But one doesn't have to be a super fan to find a flaw in the idea that replacing him would have an unquestioned positive result.

What's more, shock of shocks, it's fair and permissible to question, or even fault him, for some of the things he does.

 

[GoAwayGiannone]

I'm pretty neutral on Quinn, I just wish he could skim a couple minutes off of the Rooneys/Blackwells and allocate them to the kids in some games.

 

[True Blue]

There were only two games (including his very first game) last year where Fox played fewer than 15 minutes in a game, and only one game this season where he played fewer than 20. Do you expect us to believe that Fox developed while playing all of those minutes? When you have so clearly established that the only way to truly develop is to sit your ass on the bench and watch other guys play? If Fox played all those minutes, then SURELY the development he experienced was accidental, right?

Do you really expect anyone to believe that Fox developed all by himself? Or maybe it was all in Harvard?

 

[True Blue]

I'm pretty neutral on Quinn, I just wish he could skim a couple minutes off of the Rooneys/Blackwells and allocate them to the kids in some games.

Blackwell, I am with you on. Rooney? No one is banging down the door to be a 4C. And he is doing a pretty good job.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that Fox developed all by himself? Or maybe it was all in Harvard?

Harvard and destiny.

With crimson in triumph flashing....

 

[GoAwayGiannone]

Blackwell, I am with you on. Rooney? No one is banging down the door to be a 4C. And he is doing a pretty good job.

Yeah, thats not to say those players are terrible and shitting the bed, I just think the Rangers of tomorrow would be better served spreading a little of those minutes to the kids is all.

 

[tomobson]

One Quinn hater rages that they need to make the playoffs. Another states that the playoffs should not be a goal for next year. Y'all should make up your minds.

As far as the playoffs, that this team is even sniffing them after all that has gone on this year, is an accomplishment. And the fact that they are in the playoffs in any other division is an accomplishment. And the fact that in any normal year, they are in the playoffs as a wild card is an accomplishment.

Is it surprising that people have their own opinions? This isn't an exact science. I don't see riding veterans that most likely won't be here in a year or two some great accomplishment, but at the end of they day these guys were here so it was worth a shot for now. I wish the kids could have been slotted in with some veterans to have them be a bigger part of this push but that is over now and we'll have to wait and see where management goes from here on out. Zib is one concussion away from la-la land, strome is awful in his own zone but has produced points, and buch along with the other two will be due a huge raise.

 

[smoneil]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that Fox developed all by himself? Or maybe it was all in Harvard?

Not at all. I actually gave Quinn a lot of credit for his work with the young defensemen in an earlier post. I was just ignoring the content of your post so as to respond with arrogant superiority and sarcasm. Want to know where I learned to do such things?




Though it IS rather interesting that the young defensemen who have been developed (and who we both point to as examples of Quinn's success) have ALL done so by getting solid minutes and regular shifts while playing on the power play. So the players who have developed have done so by Quinn using them exactly the way we want him to use the young forwards. Funny that, no?

 

[will1066]

Can someone craft an open letter to General Manager Jeff Gorton declaring the fanbase's disgust with Quinn and demanding that he be replaced as head coach? Open letters go both ways. Since Gorton wrote one to us, we can write one to him. Or, at least, we need to start a crowdsourcing page to petition for Quinn's removal and, if possible, tar and feather him on his way out. Or, is that too much? Asking for a friend. The letter needs to incorporate the phrase "ruining our kids" at least somewhere. Other keywords must be "Colin Blackwell," "Kevin Rooney," and "no counter-challenge to Lindy Ruff's offside challenge on Vitali Kravstov's first NHL goal," thus ruining him.

 

[Number 9]

Based on his stellar coaching resume?

f*** messier. Quinn is a far more experienced coach and I’m already sick of his shit. Can we please just hire an NHL coach this time?

Thats another thing I couldnt say "f*** Messier" someone above said start as an assistant which is probably what I would hope for.

 

[CLW]

I fail to see what this inane exercise will achieve. What I will say is there has been far more positive to his tenure than negative. I'll let you fill in your own score for far more positive than negative.

It's not inane, ratings are used all the time to evaluate and differentiate. Come on, humor me, climb out on a limb and give Quinn a rating!

I don't subscribe to your rating scale. But more importantly, I don't agree with the way you have characterized his teams.

Ok, create your own rating scale then.

CLW: Next year will bring an influx of fresh YOUNG rookie talent. Do you believe Quinn will do a good job of integrating them into a new Team?

Yes.

Why, what qualities do you see in Quinn that gives you that impression?

None of this is accurate either.

Well, we saw the easy with which Carolina brushed away the NYR under Quinn in the bubble. Personally I think Florida, Tampa and Carolina are better than the teams in Ranger's division who are getting old. But that is of course a matter of opinion.

Florida has been rebuilding for the better part of of what 15 years? Since they lost in the 95-96 Cup final, do you want to know how many playoff series they've won? Zero point zero.

Well, they've been a shambles since forever, but now they are playing 50/50 hockey with the Stanley Cup champions. Definitely a turn around under coach Q.

Was Brind'Amour starting from point zero? No. And I remember more than a few people lusting over the coach he replaced.

That's interesting. McKinnon was drafted 8 years ago. Langeskog was drafted 10 years ago. Rantanen 6
Makar 4 years ago. So this is hardly a synonymous situation to where the Rangers are. The Devils are closer to the Rangers. Prefer where they are?

Or is the point that if the Rangers had Quinneville, Bednar or Brind'Amour they would be true contender?

My point is the structure and direction would be more clearly defined under them. Ask Jesper Fast who outright said he has never been on a team that works as hard as the Canes under BA. Unless Kreider is playing injured atm I doubt he'd be tolerated by Q, BA and Bednar (for example)

Also, The NYR have Panarin, Zib, Strome and Fox etc. Top players in the league. Let's not pretend the NYR are the NJD to make excuses for Quinn.

Quinn's job is to integrate and elevate the young players in order to create a contender, and create the underlying structure and culture to achieve the cup. Tampa is the gold standard of resent years, a team that got it right. I don't see that level of competency from Quinn.

 

[egelband]

As others have noted, this whole "don't play the high end kids" approach goes against how pretty much every team has developed their 1st/2nd overall picks. When you have 1st/2nd overall picks, "development" is usually as simple as "don't f*** it up." It's like teaching an honors class. The best thing you can do is guide, give opportunities, and stay out of their way. Quinn is getting in their way. Like AV (and this has honestly been the biggest problem with this franchise for the last decade), Quinn seems to think he's just smarter than everyone else who has ever coached such prospects. The results have been abysmal. I haven't called for Gorton's firing yet, because I generally view the GM's job as talent acquisition, and he has done a phenomenal job of that. But if he's on board with this development "plan" for our four best young forwards, then he should share a cab back to Boston with Quinn.

I disagree with the premise that Quinn isn’t playing the kids.
He may not be giving them big minutes but they’re in the lineup every night. We can quibble about 10 mins vs 15 mins. But, frankly, Lafreniere in particular has not been dynamite and Quinn keeps running him out there. I really think the team has done a nice job balancing results and development.

 

[egelband]

Guess you missed Ron Low, Bryan Trottier, Glen Sather, John Muckler, Michel Bergeron and Ted Sator.

It’s funny how every coach becomes the most hated.
Really, in general, I think fans expect too much from a coach.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

I disagree with the premise that Quinn isn’t playing the kids.
He may not be giving them big minutes but they’re in the lineup every night. We can quibble about 10 mins vs 15 mins. But, frankly, Lafreniere in particular has not been dynamite and Quinn keeps running him out there. I really think the team has done a nice job balancing results and development.

I'd argue that he played Laff way too much at certain times during the year. The Rangers had a unique opportunity to bring the young guys along slowly, in a season where they weren't expected to contend, in an environment where there's already established players in the lineup. Wisely, they took advantage of it. No need to put them in situations they aren't ready for simply because the rosters a tire fire and there's no one else available. That's how you ruin a prospect. Could you imagine the disaster this season would have been if you didn't have the vets around to shield these guys?

 

[smoneil]

I disagree with the premise that Quinn isn’t playing the kids.
He may not be giving them big minutes but they’re in the lineup every night. We can quibble about 10 mins vs 15 mins. But, frankly, Lafreniere in particular has not been dynamite and Quinn keeps running him out there. I really think the team has done a nice job balancing results and development.

They are getting several minutes less than their draft position counterparts over the last two decades while also getting almost no power play time. Chytil--despite making a HUGE jump in his production rate--has seen the lowest ice time of his career, with no power play time and more than a minute and a half less time on the ice compared to last year (a year where he had the same two players ahead of him on the depth chart). I'm not really judging on Kravtsov yet, as he just got here. But particularly over the last 15-20 games, those four guys have regularly been the bottom four players on the team as regards their time on the ice. Their shifts aren't regular which also keeps them from getting into any kind of decent flow/feel for the game. They aren't getting benched, but he's not really playing them either.

 

[egelband]

That pretty much nails it for me. I think there's a middle ground to the conversation. He's not a disaster, but he's also not likely to be in the hall of fame any time soon. This just seems to be the cycle that we go through with every coach after about 3-4 years. AV sucked. Torts sucked. Renney sucked... now Quinn sucks...

I'll restate that he isn't my favorite coach by any stretch, but the one thing I will say to his credit is that this is pretty much where we all pegged the team to be this year, but now are shocked that it's happening.

It’s sad to me that we feel we have to couch any non-raging Quinn comments with ‘I’m not a Quinn fan, but..’.

I feel it too. Not criticizing you @Barnaby or anyone else who does it. I’ve done it.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It’s funny how every coach becomes the most hated.
Really, in general, I think fans expect too much from a coach.

I've said it time and again, the most popular coach is always the next coach.

 

[JHS]

Why was he a better option? It took him 11 years to build a team that could win a series. He walked into a loaded Caps team that may have underachieved was primed to win and then came to a Islander veteran Islander team,

Ive had this argument in here too many times to do it again. If you can’t see how Barry Trotz is Sooooooooo much of a better coach than David Quinn, nothing I say will help you. It’s so painfully obvious in every single imaginable way.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It's not inane, ratings are used all the time to evaluate and differentiate. Come on, humor me, climb out on a limb and give Quinn a rating!



Ok, create your own rating scale then.



Why, what qualities do you see in Quinn that gives you that impression?



Well, we saw the easy with which Carolina brushed away the NYR under Quinn in the bubble. Personally I think Florida, Tampa and Carolina are better than the teams in Ranger's division who are getting old. But that is of course a matter of opinion.



Well, they've been a shambles since forever, but now they are playing 50/50 hockey with the Stanley Cup champions. Definitely a turn around under coach Q.



My point is the structure and direction would be more clearly defined under them. Ask Jesper Fast who outright said he has never been on a team that works as hard as the Canes under BA. Unless Kreider is playing injured atm I doubt he'd be tolerated by Q, BA and Bednar (for example)

Also, The NYR have Panarin, Zib, Strome and Fox etc. Top players in the league. Let's not pretend the NYR are the NJD to make excuses for Quinn.

Quinn's job is to integrate and elevate the young players in order to create a contender, and create the underlying structure and culture to achieve the cup. Tampa is the gold standard of resent years, a team that got it right. I don't see that level of competency from Quinn.

Here's my rating: I give Quinn a pineapple.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Ive had this argument in here too many times to do it again. If you can’t see how Barry Trotz is Sooooooooo much of a better coach than David Quinn, nothing I say will help you. It’s so painfully obvious in every single imaginable way.

Trotz has how many more years experience as an NHL coach than Quinn does?

And I have said this too many times to do it again: It took Trotz 11 years to win a playoff series and in those years missed his teams playoffs the majority of the time. So let's not act like Quinn has failed to be the wunderkind Trotz was when he got his first NHL head coaching job.

 

[CLW]

Here's my rating: I give Quinn a pineapple.

Fitting.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Fitting.

Not sure where a pineapple fits, but give it a try...