Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[Number 9]

Is there any chance that if Quinn is fired they would finally give Messier a chance? He could really help develop Lafreniere and Fox into the next leadership core of the team.

I couldn't say no to messier, not sure why he hasn't been our coach already. Agreed he would be a good development coach.

 

[True Blue]

This is an idiotic take. Fox isn't the first and won't be the last 3rd rounder that develops into an elite player. He's also 23 and we all know about the loophole he took advantage of to force his way here so I'm not sure why you even bother to bring that up.

So then he was not a perfectly formed prospect and needed to develop? Shocking.

Anyways. There is a good chance the veteran core we have in place this season will mostly be gone next season. We can't afford to self rent zib, buch, and strome and their values are pretty high right now. Will management continue to be fine with quinn riding the vets or do we think they want to start getting the kids more experience so they have a better idea on what they need to focus this off-season?

There is almost no chance that all three are gone. I would say that there is a decent chance that one is not back to start the year and another MAY be moved during the season sometime. One (probably one of the centers) will be back and will be around for a few year.

There will be cap space so there is no need for self rentals. And it is not like Buch is a UFA anyway.

What management will dictate will depend on who is here and who is not here. But making the playoffs will be a goal next year. And as such, like all other coaches in that position, it is silly not to believe that the vets will be leaned on. Of course players like Chytil and Kakko will be in their third year at that point. So doubt they will be classified as "kids" for that purpose.

 

[Barnaby]

It’s completely fair to criticize Quinn for the things you don’t like, but it’s not fair to not give him credit for what you do like.

I think I heard it all where someone started giving Ruff credit for Lindgren where all people did was bash Ruff all last year.

 

[tomobson]

So then he was not a perfectly formed prospect and needed to develop? Shocking.

There is almost no chance that all three are gone. I would say that there is a decent chance that one is not back to start the year and another MAY be moved during the season sometime. One (probably one of the centers) will be back and will be around for a few year.

There will be cap space so there is no need for self rentals. And it is not like Buch is a UFA anyway.

What management will dictate will depend on who is here and who is not here. But making the playoffs will be a goal next year. And as such, like all other coaches in that position, it is silly not to believe that the vets will be leaned on. Of course players like Chytil and Kakko will be in their third year at that point. So doubt they will be classified as "kids" for that purpose.

I say two of the three aren't here next season but either way rebuilds are going to go through tough seasons and it's not something we're going to be able to avoid. You can't continually try to make the playoffs doing a rebuild that just sounds like they are stalling the rebuild if they continue with this line of thinking. This was the last season this team could afford to lean on the veterans. Contracts are up and the flat cap is forcing this issue even more. Playoffs should not be the focus next year. They only become a focus if the kids force the issue because the shift has to start at some point.

 

[Barnaby]

I couldn't say no to messier, not sure why he hasn't been our coach already. Agreed he would be a good development coach.

I always felt that if he was that dedicated to being an NHL coach that he’d have gone somewhere to get some coaching experience. At least go be an assistant somewhere. We’ve also seen how a lot of very talented players don’t necessarily make the best coaches. Gretzky, Oates, Trottier, etc... It would have been sad to see Messier come here just to flame out in a year or two...

 

[Doctyl]

I couldn't say no to messier, not sure why he hasn't been our coach already. Agreed he would be a good development coach.

Based on his stellar coaching resume?

f*** messier. Quinn is a far more experienced coach and I’m already sick of his shit. Can we please just hire an NHL coach this time?

 

[Barnaby]

I say two of the three aren't here next season but either way rebuilds are going to go through tough seasons and it's not something we're going to be able to avoid. You can't continually try to make the playoffs doing a rebuild that just sounds like they are stalling the rebuild if they continue with this line of thinking. This was the last season this team could afford to lean on the veterans. Contracts are up and the flat cap is forcing this issue even more. Playoffs should not be the focus next year. They only become a focus if the kids force the issue because the shift has to start at some point.

Disagree here. You have a lot of talent in the pipeline and some high level vets. I think this upcoming year is the year they start trying to win. Players generally develop better in a competitive environment. I figured they’d miss the playoffs this season, hoping they make it next year, then transition to being a contender the year after that.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

This is an idiotic take. Fox isn't the first and won't be the last 3rd rounder that develops into an elite player. He's also 23 and we all know about the loophole he took advantage of to force his way here so I'm not sure why you even bother to bring that up.

I'm not sure why you even bother to bring this up...

Will management continue to be fine with quinn riding the vets or do we think they want to start getting the kids more experience so they have a better idea on what they need to focus this off-season?

It's very clear that management doesn't want anything good to happen. They really should consult with you on all matters.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Quinn's legacy is going to be irrevocably tied to the development of the kids. But he has had to balance that with trying to win games. Everything considered, I think he has done a pretty average job at that; considering that we can't see most of what goes on outside of games.

Lafreniere, Kakko, and Miller have all gotten pretty close to what their play deserved throughout the season. He probably could have leaned a little more on Kakko, and been a little better at delegating PP time appropriately.

Kravtsov is now a regular in the lineup, and hopefully it will just be a matter of a few more games before he gets moved up. Though I wish it had already happened.

Chytil got shafted imo. He was fantastic to start the year, and was never given a proper opportunity. If any of our kids' futures have been threatened by this season, look no farther than #72.

Howden gets overplayed, but he has moved him to wing at least, and clearly has him pegged as a 4th line grinder.

Gauthier never got the opportunity that he should have, but he also never did the right things to earn any coach's trust.

 

[True Blue]

I say two of the three aren't here next season but either way rebuilds are going to go through tough seasons and it's not something we're going to be able to avoid. You can't continually try to make the playoffs doing a rebuild that just sounds like they are stalling the rebuild if they continue with this line of thinking. This was the last season this team could afford to lean on the veterans. Contracts are up and the flat cap is forcing this issue even more. Playoffs should not be the focus next year. They only become a focus if the kids force the issue because the shift has to start at some point.

The playoffs are absolutely going to be a goal. I think think that it will be viewed as a step by management. Just my opinion on how they will view it.

As such, I have a hard time seeing two of those three not here to start the season. Could happen, but I think the likelihood is that it is a bit more spread out.

This team has not continuously tried to make the playoffs. That was not the definitive goal for the last several years. But it will certainly will be one of them for next year.

 

[tomobson]

Disagree here. You have a lot of talent in the pipeline and some high level vets. I think this upcoming year is the year they start trying to win. Players generally develop better in a competitive environment. I figured they’d miss the playoffs this season, hoping they make it next year, then transition to being a contender the year after that.

This is the major difference I have with some people here. I feel like we're still 2 or 3 years away from becoming a playoff team. Maybe I'm overplaying the cap issues in my head because I don't think it would be wise to hang on to the veteran core after this season and they've been the major reason for these last two playoff pushes. Are we retooling or are we rebuilding?

It's very clear that management doesn't want anything good to happen. They really should consult with you on all matters.

Another good one! You are a weird one. I enjoy your attempts at humor so I won't ignore you but maybe you might want to ignore me as you clearly believe I'm the most idiotic poster for questioning management at all.

 

[CLW]

It's this kind of post that get me truly miffed.

Is Quinn a poor coach? No.

Is Quinn the second coming of Scotty Bowman? No.

But some need to deal in absolutes.

And as a member of the purported "Quinnbros", I will say this: I like Quinn but certainly genuinely impressed with his coaching. But by and large that has been the same for the majority of the Rangers' coaches. And I won't pretend as if I know better than the person who is paid to coach.

What I have an issue with is a very pervasive simplistic mindset that:

1) Quinn has no idea what he's doing
and
2) That merely replacing Quinn with any other coach would have this team its different position than it currently is.
and
3) The inability or desire to accept that there have been other circumstances over the past 13 months that add to the challenge of developing a team.

The FO seems to think that Quinn is doing the job and the team is where it reasonable should be (or are they secretly saboteurs who really want to see this whole thing fail—diabolical!) The playoffs where never a guarantee. When did that become the standard?

There's also seems to be a need to deal in absolutes:

Any success the team has is, in some way, in spite of Quinn

Every flaw is definitively his fault.

Kakko and Lafreniere may not be wre we would want them to be, so they're being ruined.

I also have to wonder how many really lived through the dark years: when the Rangers had a pervading country club culture, the organization had the highest payroll in the league and still missed the playoffs and had no prospect pool to speak of. After that era, this one has been a pleasure.

See, this is exactly what I pointed at. The "simplistic mindset" you complain about is largely a construct of your own mind, it's bitching about the bitching.

And you didn't answer my question. You said Quinn is a good coach. How good in your opinion? If you rate him on a scale from 1 to 10, where would you put him if 1-5 is unacceptable/weak? 5-7 mediocre to average, 8-10 good to outstanding? Do you see him as the right coach for the long term future for this franchise? Personally I think most people have him around 5-7 (7 if they are generous), which rates as "poor" imo, average is not good enough for a franchise like the Rangers. I struggle to see how a case of 8 or better can be made.

Just because previous eras have been 1-5 for various reasons, and things are looking up, that does not mean average, even if an improvement, should be the acceptable standard. After 3 years Quinn's teams are still brittle, lack a spine and structure etc etc. 3 years have shown that Quinn is exactly like his previous coaching record, unremarkable.

Next year will bring an influx of fresh YOUNG rookie talent. Do you believe Quinn will do a good job of integrating them into a new Team? Compare with how Q reshaped Florida in less time , Brind'Amour created Carolina as a budding contender, Colorado built a juggernaut - to use 3 examples from within Quinn's time with the Rangers.

 

[RGY]

There have been an infinite number of players who have come into the league with talent and ability. I guess what they lacked was destiny.

Were not talking other players though. Were talking Adam Fox. Has he not been this good since day 1? I mean sure he has gotten even better over time, but was he not pretty damn good from the start? You wana be sarcastic about it to deflect the point being made, sure go for it.

 

[True Blue]

Were not talking other players though. Were talking Adam Fox. Has he not been this good since day 1? I mean sure he has gotten even better over time, but was he not pretty damn good from the start? You wana be sarcastic about it to deflect the point being made, sure go for it.

But he HAS improved from start of the year last year to end, yes? And he HAS improved to the start of this year. And he HAS improved yet again from start to finish this year no? Is that not called being developed further?

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Quinn was hired as a developmental coach. I think he's mostly done a good job with that. Miller, Fox, ADA, Buchnevich, Kakko has shown improvement although he's not there yet. Lafreniere is in his rookie season, but I expect him to improve. Strome came over and has had nothing but career season's despite it being minimized every year. Some of that you can attribute to Panarin, but he's certainly improved considerably. There are some things that I'm not a fan of. I'd like to see the forward lines spread out the kids line. I'd like to see the kids get some PP or at least get rewarded with it when they are playing well. I don't get the obsession with Howden who is a fringe NHLer at best and hasn't improved. I don't like that this team has come up short in their biggest games. I could live with losing the Islander or play in games at this point, but the effort wasn't there and they just looked out coached. I always believed that when this team started hitting its stride they'd opt for a veteran coach with playoff experience. I would expect that to be after next season although if it was up to me, I'd make that move this offseason. Overall, I think he's mostly done what he was brought in for, but I'd opt for a change if they think the right coach is out there. To be honest, I thought going into this season that playoffs were the goal, but the realistic expectation was to be pretty much where they are now: playing meaningful games in April, but coming up short.

If there's one thing I've learned from Ranger hockey it's that fans seldom like the coach. AV took this team to a cup final and was talked about like he was an abomination (although granted, he wasn't my favorite), Torts had the most sustained success for the NYR'S since the early-mid 90's and he got to a point where he was constantly complained about. Renney was the first coach that got back into the playoffs if my memory serves and he was dismissed and not really appreciated. Every coach either doesn't change the lines often enough and can't adapt or changes the lines too often so players can't build chemistry.

If it were up to me I'd say thanks and start looking for the right coach to take the next step, but I wouldn't call DQ an abomination either.

Even if he's strictly a developmental coach this team is at the point where they need to make the playoffs.

 

[RGY]

It’s completely fair to criticize Quinn for the things you don’t like, but it’s not fair to not give him credit for what you do like.

I think I heard it all where someone started giving Ruff credit for Lindgren where all people did was bash Ruff all last year.

That was me and again... I did not give Ruff credit for Lindgren. I said it could be possible that the coach that takes care of the defense played a part in Lindgren’s development. I guess that’s outrageous. I also left it open that DQ could be responsible for Lindgren’s progress and followed that post up with yes lets check this one off for DQ.

Great, he has had a significant impact on 3-4 players.

 

[RGY]

It was so clear that Fox was destined for this that he was not drafted until the third round. It was so clear that Fox was destined for this that he was traded for a pair of 2nd round picks. Hardly the bounty one would think would be collected from a destined Norris trophy candidate.

It was so clear that Fox was destined for this that he has absolutely made no improvements in his game since his first game. He was just always on this level.

What the f*** does the first part have to do with since the first game he was on the ice he looked like he just had IT? And then arguing that from that first game he has taken off so how much developing did DQ do? Did DQ teach him out to evade opposing forwards with the spin moves and shoulder fakes he does? Did DQ teach him his vision and patience? Did DQ teach him his hockey IQ? Did DQ teach him his passing ability? Did DQ teach him his skating ability that allows him to get up and down the ice so smoothly?

He has been this way since day 1. Who cares where he was drafted or what was traded for him. That has nothing to do with the discussion. But throw that smoke up in an attempt to be the smart ass you always are here. I aint going 12 rounds with the guy who must be David Quinn’s father/brother/cousin/best friend/priest. There are plenty others here who you fight with all day long.

 

[True Blue]

Even if he's strictly a developmental coach this team is at the point where they need to make the playoffs.

One Quinn hater rages that they need to make the playoffs. Another states that the playoffs should not be a goal for next year. Y'all should make up your minds.

As far as the playoffs, that this team is even sniffing them after all that has gone on this year, is an accomplishment. And the fact that they are in the playoffs in any other division is an accomplishment. And the fact that in any normal year, they are in the playoffs as a wild card is an accomplishment.

 

[True Blue]

What the f*** does the first part have to do with since the first game he was on the ice he looked like he just had IT? And then arguing that from that first game he has taken off so how much developing did DQ do? Did DQ teach him out to evade opposing forwards with the spin moves and shoulder fakes he does? Did DQ teach him his vision and patience? Did DQ teach him his hockey IQ? Did DQ teach him his passing ability? Did DQ teach him his skating ability that allows him to get up and down the ice so smoothly?

He has been this way since day 1. Who cares where he was drafted or what was traded for him. That has nothing to do with the discussion. But throw that smoke up in an attempt to be the smart ass you always are here. I aint going 12 rounds with the guy who must be David Quinn’s father/brother/cousin/best friend/priest. There are plenty others here who you fight with all day long.

It is germane because it shows growth. And while I have no idea of what exactly Quinn did or did not teach him, I am going with that he shares in the responsibility since you yourself admit that there have been improvements. By your standards, no coach develops anyone as no one knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes.

Did Quinn teach him to evade opposing forwards? I have no idea. But unless you believe that he just figures everything out by the grace of God, I am betting that his coach had something to do with it.

He has been what way since day 1? A perfectly made prospect? If that is the case, then what is he doing improving since you cannot improve perfection?

 

[CLW]

It’s not weird or rude to point out. Almost nobody takes any issue with that being said even if they don’t totally agree. But if we’re being honest, people are almost always taking it way past that and being extremely over dramatic in their mocking of the guy and the things they try to pin on him. That’s when others chime in and point out that it’s ridiculous.

People exaggerate and project emotions, that has always been the nature of the beast with sports. What is annoying is that some people use it to attack personally rather than engage in meaningful discussion. When people lump other people and arguments into a heap of intellectual laziness/misdirection it just derails the discussion.

 

[smoneil]

Guess you missed Ron Low, Bryan Trottier, Glen Sather, John Muckler, Michel Bergeron and Ted Sator.

I'd add AV to that list as well. Him trying to force that man to man defensive system when half his top D could barely skate was just cringe-worthy.

I liked Renney and Torts through their whole tenure here. I think both just hit their shelf life where what they were doing stopped working in the room.

I don't hate Quinn. I think he's done a phenomenal job with young defensive players. While the whole team defensive effort is better this year than last year (which can be credited/faulted to Martin/Ruff), the consistency between the last few years is the development of individual defensemen. I haven't complained about his use of Reuanen or Hajek because I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to defensemen. I think it might have done Quinn a world of good to spend a few years as a defensive assistant (as he really had less than a year as an assistant coach at the NHL level).

Even the other aspects of his coaching aren't necessarily "worst all time" or anything. They are just wildly inconsistent. I don't know enough about his time in Lake Erie and Boston to say whether this is a hallmark of his coaching or an aberration with this team. His history as a head coach seems to tell a story of never being bad but never really being a contender, either.

Having said that, he has the responsibility for developing the franchises only two top 2 draft picks ever (and the only two we are likely to see in our lifetimes). That's such a huge responsibility that, even if he did everything else right and screwed up that one thing, it would put his name up in that hall of shame.

Has he screwed them up? I vehemently disagree with how he is developing them, and I don't see how anybody could be happy about where they are vs. the expectations of draft day (and this isn't an "expectations were too high" thing. These are record lows for top picks). I guess time will tell, but I wouldn't want to give any coach too long a leash if it appeared that they were getting in the way of developing Laf and Kakko.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Another good one! You are a weird one. I enjoy your attempts at humor so I won't ignore you but maybe you might want to ignore me as you clearly believe I'm the most idiotic poster for questioning management at all.

Idiotic? No. Delusional, childish and ignorant, perhaps. But I won't go so fast as to say idiotic.

 

[Barnaby]

That was me and again... I did not give Ruff credit for Lindgren. I said it could be possible that the coach that takes care of the defense played a part in Lindgren’s development. I guess that’s outrageous. I also left it open that DQ could be responsible for Lindgren’s progress and followed that post up with yes lets check this one off for DQ.

Great, he has had a significant impact on 3-4 players.

Again, I am not DQ super fan. There has been both good and bad. Overall I think the development of the young guys has been mostly positive. Are they improving? Most are. We realized this was a long shot year for the playoffs - I wish they got in. I wouldn’t be opposed to a veteran coach coming in for next season, but I doubt they go that route quite yet. I’d probably make my decision based on whose available if I were them.

 

[smoneil]

But he HAS improved from start of the year last year to end, yes? And he HAS improved to the start of this year. And he HAS improved yet again from start to finish this year no? Is that not called being developed further?

There were only two games (including his very first game) last year where Fox played fewer than 15 minutes in a game, and only one game this season where he played fewer than 20. Do you expect us to believe that Fox developed while playing all of those minutes? When you have so clearly established that the only way to truly develop is to sit your ass on the bench and watch other guys play? If Fox played all those minutes, then SURELY the development he experienced was accidental, right?

 

[CLW]

I'd add AV to that list as well. Him trying to force that man to man defensive system when half his top D could barely skate was just cringe-worthy.

I liked Renney and Torts through their whole tenure here. I think both just hit their shelf life where what they were doing stopped working in the room.

I don't hate Quinn. I think he's done a phenomenal job with young defensive players. While the whole team defensive effort is better this year than last year (which can be credited/faulted to Martin/Ruff), the consistency between the last few years is the development of individual defensemen. I haven't complained about his use of Reuanen or Hajek because I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt when it comes to defensemen. I think it might have done Quinn a world of good to spend a few years as a defensive assistant (as he really had less than a year as an assistant coach at the NHL level).

Even the other aspects of his coaching aren't necessarily "worst all time" or anything. They are just wildly inconsistent. I don't know enough about his time in Lake Erie and Boston to say whether this is a hallmark of his coaching or an aberration with this team. His history as a head coach seems to tell a story of never being bad but never really being a contender, either.

Having said that, he has the responsibility for developing the franchises only two top 2 draft picks ever (and the only two we are likely to see in our lifetimes). That's such a huge responsibility that, even if he did everything else right and screwed up that one thing, it would put his name up in that hall of shame.

Has he screwed them up? I vehemently disagree with how he is developing them, and I don't see how anybody could be happy about where they are vs. the expectations of draft day (and this isn't an "expectations were too high" thing. These are record lows for top picks). I guess time will tell, but I wouldn't want to give any coach too long a leash if it appeared that they were getting in the way of developing Laf and Kakko.

Funny, what you are describing is a rookie rushed into the league who still has crucial parts of his game to fix. I just want for the Rangers to have a clear plan, and not allow the personal ambitions of a head coach get in the way of the larger goal of creating a winning team. Rangers management have a lot of important questions to answer when it comes to immediate and long term strategy for creating a winning team. Will they go the traditional route and start selling youth to plug in veterans for a team capable of a cup run? Or will they take the other route and develop that team and structure from within?

The second option is more appealing to me. I just don't see Quinn as they guy to tie it all together.