Player Discussion David Quinn: Part V

[smoneil]

Who are these coaches and teams that you are talking about? I have a funny feeling that the Hockey world outside of HFNYR thinks a little differently of Quinn they you think they do.

The ones who, for the last 15+ years have ALL developed top draft picks by *checks notes* not nailing their asses to the bench and playing them 4th line minutes with no PP time to speak of. That's who those coaches/teams are.

 

[Gamma82]

The ones who, for the last 15+ years have ALL developed top draft picks by *checks notes* not nailing their asses to the bench and playing them 4th line minutes with no PP time to speak of. That's who those coaches/teams are.

So you can't name anyone outside of HFNYR. The Quinn derangement syndrome is strong in you.

 

[kovazub94]

But no one has actually expected him to be the long term option. He is here to do a job. And is doing the job that Gorton & JD want him to do. He is for sure behind the bench next year. But next year, the playoffs are going to be expected. If he makes the playoffs next year, he may well be back for his 5th year. But when the team is competing for the Cup, solid chance that someone else is behind the bench.

Quinn already exceeded (or right there for) the average length of coaching half-life before getting shafted, so in a sense he’s already on borrowed time especially considering he’s a rookie coach, not a veteran who would get a bigger proverbial leash from the management. Given how the season has gone to date and the turnaround we’re seeing from the mid-March when Quinn finally got more or less a full roster to work with - IMO he earned at least through two / three months into the next season.

 

[smoneil]

Please show me one public statement from a hockey expert (not some random Twitter fanboy please) who criticized Quinn for prospect development?

See my post in response to the other guy who tried to put 2+2 together and somehow would up with pi.

Our top prospects aren't developing like top prospects.

Quinn (and Gorton for all I know) is going about said development in a way that is wholly different from what is a clear "established" method of developing top prospects (lots of minutes, usually sheltered at first, with regular PP time, letting them learn by doing vs. Quinn's method of having them sit there and watch a hockey game).

Ergo, if Quinn is doing something different, and it has led to some of the worst production from back to back top picks, it's safe to say that most teams wouldn't really approve. Because if they did...someone other than Quinn might have tried it.

Stutzle is averaging more than 2 minutes more per game than Laf, and that gap is widening. He's only played fewer than 15 minutes in a game 13 times (four of which were the first four games of the season). Laf? 36 of his games have seen him under the 15 minute mark. He's had five games below the TEN minute mark. Stutzle has almost double the production of Laf, and will almost certainly go into next season expected to be a bigger contributor. At the rate our guys are going, we're still going to be waiting for them to take a regular shift.

Let's try simplifying it: If Quinn's methods are so gosh darned amazing--
1: Why have literally no other teams tried this method for developing elite prospects before?
and
2: Why does it appear to not be working at all?

 

[smoneil]

So you can't name anyone outside of HFNYR. The Quinn derangement syndrome is strong in you.

I literally just named every team that has had a top draft pick for the last 15 years.

Let's see if you can offer an answer that isn't a straw man, a personal attack, or an obvious attempt to miss the point on the same pair of questions I asked the other person:

Let's try simplifying it: If Quinn's methods are so gosh darned amazing--
1: Why have literally no other teams tried this method for developing elite prospects before?
and
2: Why does it appear to not be working at all?

 

[kovazub94]

See my post in response to the other guy who tried to put 2+2 together and somehow would up with pi.

Our top prospects aren't developing like top prospects.

Quinn (and Gorton for all I know) is going about said development in a way that is wholly different from what is a clear "established" method of developing top prospects (lots of minutes, usually sheltered at first, with regular PP time, letting them learn by doing vs. Quinn's method of having them sit there and watch a hockey game).

Ergo, if Quinn is doing something different, and it has led to some of the worst production from back to back top picks, it's safe to say that most teams wouldn't really approve. Because if they did...someone other than Quinn might have tried it.

Stutzle is averaging more than 2 minutes more per game than Laf, and that gap is widening. He's only played fewer than 15 minutes in a game 13 times (four of which were the first four games of the season). Laf? 36 of his games have seen him under the 15 minute mark. He's had five games below the TEN minute mark. Stutzle has almost double the production of Laf, and will almost certainly go into next season expected to be a bigger contributor. At the rate our guys are going, we're still going to be waiting for them to take a regular shift.

Let's try simplifying it: If Quinn's methods are so gosh darned amazing--
1: Why have literally no other teams tried this method for developing elite prospects before?
and
2: Why does it appear to not be working at all?

What a joke.

NBC, TCN or any other respected national US and Canadian hockey outlets have had only praise when it comes to the Rangers and their prospects.

Keep trying though.

 

[True Blue]

The ones who, for the last 15+ years have ALL developed top draft picks by *checks notes* not nailing their asses to the bench and playing them 4th line minutes with no PP time to speak of. That's who those coaches/teams are.

So no one.

Rather big difference in projection your irrational feelings onto NHL professionals and actually knowing how they really view things.

 

[kovazub94]

I literally just named every team that has had a top draft pick for the last 15 years.

Let's see if you can offer an answer that isn't a straw man, a personal attack, or an obvious attempt to miss the point on the same pair of questions I asked the other person:

Let's try simplifying it: If Quinn's methods are so gosh darned amazing--
1: Why have literally no other teams tried this method for developing elite prospects before?
and
2: Why does it appear to not be working at all?

1. Because Gorton gave Quinn a unique situation where prospects can be protected without being overwhelmed and properly developed to play the right way in the right environment, held accountable instead of entitled. Those other teams sucked ass and were forced to play their prospects without alternative options.

2. Because it doesn’t appear to you and that speaks to your lack of understanding of what development looks like (clue it’s not just points in a losing environment in meaningless games)

 

[smoneil]

Quinn already exceeded (or right there for) the average length of coaching half-life before getting shafted, so in a sense he’s already on borrowed time especially considering he’s a rookie coach, not a veteran who would get a bigger proverbial leash from the management. Given how the season has gone to date and the turnaround we’re seeing from the mid-March when Quinn finally got more or less a full roster to work with - IMO he earned at least through two / three months into the next season.

This right here is I think the biggest area where we differ. My issue with Quinn is in the stagnation of Laf and Kakko. I have no idea how old you are or if you go as far back as the dark ages (late 90s into the early aughts). In that era, a "good prospect" was someone like Thomas Pock. The team has hit occasionally on draft picks. They've hit occasionally on FA. They've hit occasionally on building a team with identity. The only Cup they've won in my lifetime was the year where they happened to hit on all three. For the first time in probably any of our lives, the Rangers have lucked their way into not one, but TWO top-end draft picks. We have quite literally never had draft picks of this caliber before. If the team handles it right, these two guys, added to what the team already does well, could usher in an era of multiple cups. So when I see both of them (as well as two other young players that, if not for Laf and Kakko, would have been among the best prospects the team has had in the last 15 years) stagnating, I get agitated. When I see the coach of this team thinking that HE knows something that every other team with such prospects somehow missed regarding how to properly develop top talent...I get agitated.

You need to realize--in a vacuum, I am always happy when the Rangers win (especially against Jersey). But we aren't in a vacuum. Game after game goes by with our four best prospects getting the least amount of minutes. Game after game goes by where those four are stagnating, or even regressing, largely because they aren't seeing enough opportunities to break through. And for what? A MAYBE slightly improved chance to squeak into the playoffs and get destroyed in the first round?

Compared to the proper development of those two players, nothing else matters to me, because we will never see draft picks that high again. This is the first time it's happened in like 70 years. So I'm sorry, but when Laf is getting less than 10 minutes per game and is on pace to put up 4th liner production, I don't give a f*** how many games against NJ we win. When Kakko is on pace for even fewer points than he had in his historically bad rookie year, I don't give a f*** about the playoffs.

Through sheer dumb luck, this team had an opportunity to put together something truly special. Two top picks ON TOP of the treasure chest they had already put together. I kept waiting for them to screw it up somehow (go off the board or draft for need rather than BPA). But they didn't. And then those players get to the team...and we see this. We see a rookie coach risking long-term damage to these two kids' development so he can ride a group of vets in the hopes of squeaking into the playoffs. When you get something once in 70+ years, you just don't gamble with it in the hopes that you might win a half off coupon at a shady Vegas buffet. There is nothing more important to me as a Rangers fan than properly developing those two kids, and I don't understand folks who are fine with making that gamble for any reason.

 

[smoneil]

What a joke.

NBC, TCN or any other respected national US and Canadian hockey outlets have had only praise when it comes to the Rangers and their prospects.

Keep trying though.

Anyone who seems happy about where Kakko and Laf are right now relative to expectations when drafted is high as a f***ing kite.

 

[Gamma82]

I literally just named every team that has had a top draft pick for the last 15 years.

Let's see if you can offer an answer that isn't a straw man, a personal attack, or an obvious attempt to miss the point on the same pair of questions I asked the other person:

Let's try simplifying it: If Quinn's methods are so gosh darned amazing--
1: Why have literally no other teams tried this method for developing elite prospects before?
and
2: Why does it appear to not be working at all?

Not working in whose eyes? It would seem a little early to say that our elite prospects aren't being developed or won't continue to develop.

 

[kovazub94]

Anyone who seems happy about where Kakko and Laf are right now relative to expectations when drafted is high as a f***ing kite.

Maybe you should try it. Might help, you know, expand your mind.

 

[smoneil]

1. Because Gorton gave Quinn a unique situation where prospects can be protected without being overwhelmed and properly developed to play the right way in the right environment, held accountable instead of entitled. Those other teams sucked ass and were forced to play their prospects without alternative options.

That's the polish on the turd version of "we know everyone else develops top talent differently, but we know we're smarter because of all the top draft picks we've had over...the....wait..." Not every team that had top players "sucked ass" and not all of the bad teams were "forced" to play their prospects (Where's Byfield right now? Asking for a friend--not the only time a top kid was sent down to get more minutes and work on their game. See Draisaitl).

2. Because it doesn’t appear to you and that speaks to your lack of understanding of what development looks like (clue it’s not just points in a losing environment in meaningless games)

It's actually funny that you tried this particular personal attack, since back when I coached (soccer, not hockey, but youth development works on similar principles), I was the guy schools brought in to rehab toxic programs and institute a sustainable, healthier developmental approach.

Also, getting those four kids a few extra minutes a game wouldn't exactly have turned this team into a bottom feeder. If they had prioritized that process early, it's actually far more likely that the team would have a better record than they have right now (as there would be a viable pp2, likely contributions on the PK by Kakko and possibly Chytil, the vets wouldn't be gasping for air by playing quite so many minutes, etc etc etc). I'm not saying play the kids on the top line. I'm saying play the kids ~15-16 minutes with regular pp2 time. That would only cut the top line's EV time by like a minute, and it would give the kids some of the power play time (second half of the penalty) that the top unit has used to score *checks notes* 1 goal all season.

 

[smoneil]

Not working in whose eyes? It would seem a little early to say that our elite prospects aren't being developed or won't continue to develop.

While it is way too early to trot out the term bust, only the most homerish of homers can look at what the two have done thus far in their careers and say they aren't at least concerned. Hell, post a poll in the poll section:

If your team had drafted Kakko and Laf and this is where they were in years two and one (respectively), would you be excited/happy about their current state of development?

Outside of you, Kovazub, and True Blue, I don't see you getting too many "yes" votes. It'd almost certainly be locked within one page because of the overwhelming result.

 

[eco's bones]

I think people should realize that if the Rangers do ‘sneak in’ to the playoffs they’ll do so on a massive amount of momentum. The Rangers already are kind of on a hot streak and they’ll probably need to win at least 8 or 9 of the last 11 games to get in. I don’t necessarily buy that we’ll get slaughtered in the first round and keep in mind that Shesterkin couldn’t play the first two games of the play in last year and our defense is better. We’ve also hung tough with all the teams currently in playoff position in our division with the exception of the Pens who wouldn’t likely be our first round opponent.

 

[CLW]

1. Because Gorton gave Quinn a unique situation where prospects can be protected without being overwhelmed and properly developed to play the right way in the right environment, held accountable instead of entitled. Those other teams sucked ass and were forced to play their prospects without alternative options.

2. Because it doesn’t appear to you and that speaks to your lack of understanding of what development looks like (clue it’s not just points in a losing environment in meaningless games)

1. What we are seeing now is not protecting, it is hiding the kids and stuffing them out of the way. Entitlement is for the vets, the kids get nothing.

2. Quinn didn't exactly show great development potential against Carolina in the playoffs. Now, almost a year later he sits the kids because they "can't play defense". Well, he has again failed at his job if that is the case.

Quinn is simply out of his element, he wants ready made veterans for his team that he can ride, that's all he has shown so far. He is not the guy to develop a new team and bring in young talent and make it grow. Right now he is wasting a lot of valuable development time on an unlikely cinderella run to make the playoffs. NOW is the time he should mix in the kids to give them a taste of what responsibility and pressure is, NOT hide them.

 

[kovazub94]

... It's actually funny that you tried this particular personal attack, since back when I coached (soccer, not hockey, but youth development works on similar principles), I was the guy schools brought in to rehab toxic programs and institute a sustainable, healthier developmental approach. ..

Haha. Now we are getting somewhere and things are coming into focus. So this is what makes you an expert on development? Oh my... well whatever helps you stroke your (enlarged) ego, my friend.

 

[smoneil]

I think people should realize that if the Rangers do ‘sneak in’ to the playoffs they’ll do so on a massive amount of momentum. The Rangers already are kind of on a hot streak and they’ll probably need to win at least 8 or 9 of the last 11 games to get in. I don’t necessarily buy that we’ll get slaughtered in the first round and keep in mind that Shesterkin couldn’t play the first two games of the play in last year and our defense is better. We’ve also hung tough with all the teams currently in playoff position in our division with the exception of the Pens who wouldn’t likely be our first round opponent.

I get the optimism, but there was a lot of that last year as well. They were on a hot streak then, too. We had swept Carolina. There was talk about how there was "no better matchup for the Rangers" and how Carolina protested the structure of the play in because they were "afraid" of playing the Rangers. There are also differences between last year's hot streak and this year's hot streak. Last year, Shesterkin looked unbeatable. This year, he's been amazing, don't get me wrong, but he can be beaten. This year, the team has seemed completely incapable of closing out games. If we're holding onto wins by the skin of our teeth against Buffalo and NJ, what do you think Pittsburgh or Boston will do to us? Finally, you can't win an NHL playoff series with two lines, no matter HOW good those lines are. The kid line hasn't been given enough ice to suddenly carry the load in a playoff scenario, and the fourth line gets roasted on the regular. I just don't see how this team, as currently constructed, takes more than MAYBE one game. The only way I could see it would be if Shesterkin goes full Lundkvist in his prime.

And frankly, even if you could guarantee me that they would win a single round, I still don't sacrifice developing those two kids in order for the chance to do that.

 

[smoneil]

Haha. Now we are getting somewhere and things are coming into focus. So this is what makes you an expert on development? Oh my... well whatever helps you stroke your (enlarged) ego, my friend.

The fact that I have professionally developed players in another sport informs my opinion (I've also never framed MYSELF as an expert on NHL player development. Over and over again, I've contrasted what the Rangers have done with what other NHL teams have done and shown how the latter have been far more successful than the former). It is one very small part of what informs that opinion. The lion's share of that opinion is based, as I've said repeatedly, on the fact that professional NHL coaches have repeatedly demonstrated that there is an accepted way to develop elite talent, and only the Rangers seem to think that they know better than the entire rest of the league. That's the peak of hubris, and no amount of you dodging that fact by flinging insults and logical fallacies will change that fact.

 

[B17 Apricots]

This thread is god awful

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Maybe you should try it. Might help, you know, expand your mind.

Listen to kovazub. He’s the Lizard King-he can do anything.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Anyone who seems happy about where Kakko and Laf are right now relative to expectations when drafted is high as a f***ing kite.

 

[tomobson]

The front office should be arrested for treason. Maybe they should follow the Devils' model...

Good one lol! It is early but our rebuild has a better chance of failing than it does of succeeding and so far it is not looking very good for us and it's going to be damn tough to get another chance that is this damn amazing. On top of that, I feel our two best picks ever are not being given the proper support by Quinn to help their development. This team has developed mediocre offensive talents for decades to a point where we should have at least gotten lucky by now, but if KK, Laf, or Kravtsov don't break this trend we're going to once again find ourselves trading for a Nash, a Gaborik, or hope we hit another homerun like Panarin because the rangers are unable at developing these type of players. I'm sure you know what the cap consequences are for having to go that route again. I'm glad you have so much confidence in this rebuild when the odds are inherently stacked against us just like any other team during a rebuild. The front office won't go down for treason but there is a good chance they go down as failures...it's just the odds. We have a good stack of prospects but now comes the hard part...developing them properly. Go ask other teams fans what they think about KK and Laf. They'll say they hope they can figure it out because they are near record setting levels of bad right now. Most teams would be happy to trade for them but guess what they would be doing. Playing them 15+ minutes a night consistently or sending them off somewhere they can play 20+ mins a night.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Good one lol! It is early but our rebuild has a better chance of failing than it does of succeeding and so far it is not looking very good for us and it's going to be damn tough to get another chance that is this damn amazing. On top of that, I feel our two best picks ever are not being given the proper support by Quinn to help their development. This team has developed mediocre offensive talents for decades to a point where we should have at least gotten lucky by now, but if KK, Laf, or Kravtsov don't break this trend we're going to once again find ourselves trading for a Nash, a Gaborik, or hope we hit another homerun like Panarin because the rangers are unable at developing these type of players. I'm sure you know what the cap consequences are for having to go that route again. I'm glad you have so much confidence in this rebuild when the odds are inherently stacked against us just like any other team during a rebuild. The front office won't go down for treason but there is a good chance they go down as failures...it's just the odds. We have a good stack of prospects but now comes the hard part...developing them properly. Go ask other teams fans what they think about KK and Laf. They'll say they hope they can figure it out because they are near record setting levels of bad right now. Most teams would be happy to trade for them but guess what they would be doing. Playing them 15+ minutes a night consistently or sending them off somewhere they can play 20+ mins a night.

The team has three top 3 defenseman under 24 and the rebuild is failing.
Tip your waitress, folks. You’ve been a great crowd.

 

[smoneil]

View attachment 424287

Yeah, I'm sure you'd be all laughs if we went back to the previous two draft days and I told you that Laf and Kakko (in his second year) combined would be outscored by the likes of Alex Tuch or Tom Wilson. Or that individually, they are being outscored by Milan Lucic, Brandon Tanev, or Casey Mittelstadt. Kakko has taken a huge leap defensively, but if you think you would have been happy two years ago knowing that he was good defensively but had middling production, you're just being dishonest with yourself. These players should be further along in their development, and it's only a small faction of posters in this thread who don't seem to see that.